Guns and Stuff.

[person0]

3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I believe that is what the current technology does.  But as I said, it is crazy expensive.

It will be a while before it becomes commercially available.

To your point the gun below was fully 3d printed.  Price tag: $11,000.

That said, that price tag is actually not so expensive that I wouldn't expect it to drop to less than 1000 in only about 10-20 years tops.  However, there are already functioning plastic 3d printed guns, most with metal parts added.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Exactly. The only bases I can see by which oppressed minorities have ever received redress has been either violent revolution, or gradual social progress.Certainly, appeals to the divine provenance of universal human rights never seem to have done the trick. On the contrary, churches tend to be conservative institutions, and to their shame, have often supported an unjust status quo rather than equitable reform.

You seem to have mistaken a "method" for a "basis".  Please answer his question.

So far,  you've actually only answered two one question in the past three pages.  You've been asked, I believe, six (approximately).  Why do you suppose that is?

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

This sounds like we're combining several large pieces of equipment that will take up a LARGE amount of space. I have a CR-10 printer.  It is considered a rather large model for a desktop model.  I don't see how the lost-wax process could be miniaturized to this point or even close.  Could it?

Hmmm. I hesitate to say it can't be done, because sooner or later Tony Stark is going to come out with a desktop foundry. But as things stand right now, no, it's not a desktop procedure.

[2ndRateMind]

Quote

The trouble I see here is that you aren’t elucidating any theory for the protection of the disempowered; other than that if they think they can take power forcibly they should try to do so, out of nothing more than bare self-interest.  What am I missing?

Uh huh. Good question, Just_A_Guy

I distinguish between objective morality, 'the Will of God', and the language around 'rights', which are sometimes genuinely all about trying to implement the moral, and sometimes just all about protecting the privileges and advantages of the 'the people who matter', the political, social and economic elites. When we all stop talking about 'my right to this, that and the other' and start talking in terms of rights which should be extended to others, then, perhaps, we will have begun to make substantial progress.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Edited May 19, 2018 by 2ndRateMind

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, person0 said:

To your point the gun below was fully 3d printed.  Price tag: $11,000.

That said, that price tag is actually not so expensive that I wouldn't expect it to drop to less than 1000 in only about 10-20 years tops.  However, there are already functioning plastic 3d printed guns, most with metal parts added.

The price tag I was referring to was the printer itself.  The article you linked to said that they are "tens of thousands, if not, hundreds of thousands of dollars."

Plastic guns start failing when the barrel reaches the transition temperature of the plastic which can be as low as 140 degrees.  That could be after one or two shots.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Guest

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You seem to have mistaken a "method" for a "basis".  Please answer his question.

So far,  you've actually only answered two one question in the past three pages.  You've been asked, I believe, six (approximately).  Why do you suppose that is?

It might be helpful from now on to respond to him only with the questions he has yet to answer. Heaven knows attempting to converse with him is an exercise in futility -- largely because of his dodges. Holding his feet to the fire might force him to be more honest in his conversations. Or maybe it would just drive him away. Either way, problem solved.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

I distinguish between objective morality, 'the Will of God', and 'rights', which are sometimes genuinely all about trying to implement the moral, and sometimes just all about protecting the privileges and advantages of the 'the people who matter', the political, social and economic elites. When we all stop talking about 'my right to this, that and the other' and start talking in terms of rights which should be extended to others, then, perhaps, we will have begun to make substantial progress.

That's still not answering the question.  Basis vs method.

24 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And what exactly has developed in the past two centuries that would inform you that our rights are NOT endowed by our Creator?

What in the past two centuries has changed the following to become right instead of wrong:

Someone harming you physically.

Someone stealing from you.

Someone imprisoning you for their own pleasure.

 

[zil]

14 minutes ago, person0 said:

That's a nice-looking gun.  I don't really like the shape of the trigger, though.  Are there commercially-available guns with a flat/straight trigger like that?

[2ndRateMind]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

It might be helpful from now on to respond to him only with the questions he has yet to answer. Heaven knows attempting to converse with him is an exercise in futility -- largely because of his dodges. Holding his feet to the fire might force him to be more honest in his conversations. Or maybe it would just drive him away. Either way, problem solved.

Give me a break, people. There are loads of you, and only one of me.

So I am triaging as best I can. Top of the list are the deepest questions, which I try to answer as time and inclination permit. Next are matters of procedure, clarification, logic, attitude etc. These get answered as best they fit in. Bottom of the list is abuse. This won't get answered at all, unless I happen to think of a particularly pertinent rejoinder.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Vort]

6 minutes ago, zil said:

That's a nice-looking gun.  I don't really like the shape of the trigger, though.  Are there commercially-available guns with a flat/straight trigger like that?

I assumed it was a trigger guard of some sort.

[zil]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

I assumed it was a trigger guard of some sort.

Doesn't look like it (zoomed in on the largest version I could find in google images) - looks like the trigger itself, though I could be wrong.

[Vort]

20 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Give me a break, people. There are loads of you, and only one of me.

So I am triaging as best I can. Top of the list are the deepest questions, which I try to answer as time and inclination permit. Next are matters of procedure, clarification, logic, attitude etc. These get answered as best they fit in. Bottom of the list is abuse. This won't get answered at all, unless I happen to think of a particularly pertinent rejoinder.

Here's your break, friend.

For the benefit of @2ndRateMind, assuming he's an honest man and not just a lying troll: Here are some questions and requests that you have overlooked JUST IN THE LAST COUPLE OF HOURS and JUST ON THIS THREAD, helpfully emphasized in bold:

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Sure.  And can we also agree that @Carborendum‘s position has consistently been that such weapons are effectively banned in the US, and have been for the better part of a hundred years?

 

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Can I be any more clear than:

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I believe your confusion seems to be based on two things.

• The difference between state and federal laws.  Federal laws are those passed by the national government in Washington D.C.
• Definition of assault rifle.

The Federal Government passed the National Firearms Act which effectively makes any "machine guns" illegal to own by civilians.  So, regardless of state laws or lack of state laws, any fully automatic weapons are illegal in the US.

The term "assault weapon" doesn't have a widely recognized legal definition.  The State laws are there to define that term.  The commonly recognized definition by firearms manufacturers, experts, and officianados, would require that the weapon be fully automatic.

Some states are trying to change that definition so they can make additional weapons illegal.  Since the term "machine gun" is already defined federally, the states decided to define a different, but related word so they can further infringe on our gun rights.

What specific statement here is so confusing that you could not find the answer to your question above?

56 minutes ago, Vort said:

Please detail which arguments you have presented that establish the word "rights" as meaning what you claim rather than meaning what I claim. I have seen no such arguments from you, only assertions.

 

58 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

2RM, there’s a certain appealing realpolitik to your approach; but what then is the basis on which oppressed minorities can seek redress?  On what basis can a 1940s European Jew claim that the Holocaust was morally wrong?  On what basis does a 2013 American gay claim the right to marry his chosen partner?

51 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And what exactly has developed in the past two centuries that would inform you that our rights are NOT endowed by our Creator?

What in the past two centuries has changed the following to become right instead of wrong:

Someone harming you physically.

Someone stealing from you.

Someone imprisoning you for their own pleasure.

 

33 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

So far,  you've actually only answered two one question in the past three pages.  You've been asked, I believe, six (approximately).  Why do you suppose that is?

We can start with that, then determine whether it's useful to ask you to clarify the many other questions that you have ignored in days/years past.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Vort

[person0]

29 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The price tag I was referring to was the printer itself.  The article you linked to said that they are "tens of thousands, if not, hundreds of thousands of dollars."

Plastic guns start failing when the barrel reaches the transition temperature of the plastic which can be as low as 140 degrees.  That could be after one or two shots.

I assumed you were, but I was mostly referring to a criminal enterprise owning the printer, rather than individual criminals.  If a cartel forks out the cash to buy one of them, I could imagine them serving their own people with fully automatic weapons in a relatively short time, at an effective price that is low enough to make it more valuable to produce the weapons than to buy them smuggled or from the black market.  That said, I suppose they could potentially already manufacture their own weapons if they wanted, but I assume a 3d printer would enable them to be more discrete.

[2ndRateMind]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

Here's your break, friend.

OK.

Some of these I have answered, but you have not found the answers sufficient.

Some of these have been answered in the due course of the discussion, and do not require further elaboration by me.

Some of these I have not answered, but absolutely intend to do so.

Meanwhile, it's getting late, here, I haven't had supper yet, and so I'm going to attend to all that stuff, and probably not return here until tomorrow morning.

Best wishes, and sweet dreams, 2RM

 

[lostinwater]

22 minutes ago, 2ndRateMind said:

 Uh huh. Good question, Just_A_Guy

I distinguish between objective morality, 'the Will of God', and the language around 'rights', which are sometimes genuinely all about trying to implement the moral, and sometimes just all about protecting the privileges and advantages of the 'the people who matter', the political, social and economic elites. When we all stop talking about 'my right to this, that and the other' and start talking in terms of rights which should be extended to others, then, perhaps, we will have begun to make substantial progress.

 Best wishes, 2RM.

i know you said your book list was packed for 5 years.  But i just finished "Suicide of the West" by Jonah Goldberg.  It really addresses a lot of the points you bring up - i thought of you and the points you bring up several times when listening to it.

The concept of an "invisible hand" that steers societies comprised of people pursuing basically selfish ends vs a "visible hand" that attempts to bless people and creates long-term chaos, because it can never fully understand the ramifications of what it attempts to do.  As someone who leans to the left on many social issues, it was enough to really get me to question some of the ideas i hold.  Or at least admit that my good intentions might often be doing more harm than good.

[person0]

27 minutes ago, zil said:

That's a nice-looking gun.  I don't really like the shape of the trigger, though.  Are there commercially-available guns with a flat/straight trigger like that?

Yes, it is an option that is offered by some manufacturers or can be installed aftermarket.  Here is a thread where they specifically discuss flat triggers.  There are various images offering examples if you scroll through.

[zil]

4 minutes ago, person0 said:

Yes, it is an option that is offered by some manufacturers or can be installed aftermarket.  Here is a thread where they specifically discuss flat triggers.  There are various images offering examples if you scroll through.

Interesting.  Thanks.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 2ndRateMind said:

Some of these I have answered, but you have not found the answers sufficient.

Some of these have been answered in the due course of the discussion, and do not require further elaboration by me.

Has anyone noticed answers to any of those questions?  Did I miss one?  I can't see any answers to the questions listed.  Can anyone help me?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I assumed you were, but I was mostly referring to a criminal enterprise owning the printer, rather than individual criminals.  If a cartel forks out the cash to buy one of them, I could imagine them serving their own people with fully automatic weapons in a relatively short time, at an effective price that is low enough to make it more valuable to produce the weapons than to buy them smuggled or from the black market.  That said, I suppose they could potentially already manufacture their own weapons if they wanted, but I assume a 3d printer would enable them to be more discrete.

What I was thinking is that to have a central illegal manufacturer would mean that we'd be dealing with organized crime.  That's not the kind of danger I'd be wanting to get into until it was time for a revolution.  I don't think we've reached that point yet.

So, in the meantime, I consider an individual with a home printer breaking an unconstitutional law to simply be passive resistance.

[Grunt]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Has anyone noticed answers to any of those questions?  Did I miss one?  I can't see any answers to the questions listed.  Can anyone help me?

Maybe if you weren't so antagonistic and were interested in having an intellectual conversation. You obviously aren't one of the least worst offenders.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, person0 said:

I was pondering the word "Reason" on the gun.  I was wondering if it was referring to 

• Reason Magazine
• Give me a reason
• Here's the reason you should do what I say.

[askandanswer]

11 hours ago, zil said:

I'm going to assume you have dogs.  My husband wanted them, so I caved - I love critters, just didn't want more to take care of.

And now you're taking care of a hippo? Suitably trained in obedience school I hope?

[zil]

6 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

And now you're taking care of a hippo? Suitably trained in obedience school I hope?

Mr. Hippo is a long time companion.  He came home with my husband one day and stayed.  Never really needed obedience school.  Though he, Mr. Grinch, and Burrito the Tree-Climbing Burro once stole my car and took it to Oklahoma for the weekend.  Mr. Hippo maintains a facebook page of his adventures.

[askandanswer]

28 minutes ago, zil said:

he, Mr. Grinch, and Burrito the Tree-Climbing Burro once stole my car and took it to Oklahoma for the weekend.

misadventures?

[zil]

4 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

misadventures?

Apparently they heard of a place called Braum's and wanted to try it out.