Lost Boy

Selling Alcohol

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Well, the logic seems sound, but I'm not comfortable with the conclusion.

Basically

Growth is good

We grow by making right choices

No ability to choose means no opportunities for growth

Many opportunities to choose means many opportunities to grow

Therefore fewer opportunities for choice is bad and many opportunities for choice is good

Fewer liquor stores means fewer opportunities to make choices about whether or not to buy liquor

Restricting choice is a bad thing

Therefor restricting the sale of liquor is a bad thing. 

 

I guess the above is the theoretical model and seems to be broadly consistent with the ideas and ideals on which aspects of the Plan of Salvation are based, ie, growth through the righteous exercise of agency. . I guess the problems come with the real world application of the model and the many people who choose unwisely. 

And yes it is a dangerous argument because it seems to look sound, but if applied without restraint and without proper consideration of the real world consequences, it would lead to unrestricted choice about anything, with very unfortunate outcomes. 

 

The more legal liquor stores the less driving and less death

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I feel like this is an area where you need to be guided by the Holy Ghost. Personally, I don't consider non members bound by the WOW, so what would be a sin for me isn't neccessarily for them. As a result, I didn't feel guilty working at McDonald's and making their, I'm guessing, delicious and not terrible instant coffee☺. I also wouldn't have a problem working as a waiter in a restauraunt that serves liquor, or a clerk in a store that does the same. But if I owned a store myself? That's where I would draw the line. I've seen first-hand the destructive aftermath of alcohol use, so you ain't getting that crap in my store. Ditto for tobacco, albeit not as dangerous as alcohol. I wouldn't judge a member who felt they had to work at the local Budweiser factory to make ends meet, but personally I wouldn't do it.  Basically, if I'm providing a service, I wouldn't feel guilty, but if I was choosing to sell those items, I would feel like that's wrong.

Edited by Midwest LDS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

Honestly, I feel like this is an area where you need to be guided by the Holy Ghost. Personally, I don't consider non members bound by the WOW, so what would be a sin for me isn't neccessarily for them. As a result, I didn't feel guilty working at McDonald's and making their, I'm guessing, delicious and not terrible instant coffee☺. I also wouldn't have a problem working as a waiter in a restauraunt that serves liquor, or a clerk in a store that does the same. But if I owned a store myself? That's where I would draw the line. I've seen first-hand the destructive aftermath of alcohol use, so you ain't getting that crap in my store. Ditto for tobacco, albeit not as dangerous as alcohol. I wouldn't judge a member who felt they had to work at the local Budweiser factory to make ends meet, but personally I wouldn't do it.  Basically, if I'm providing a service, I wouldn't feel guilty, but if I was choosing to sell those items, I would feel like that's wrong.

Even if you don’t covenant to follow the WoW you should feel guilty serving someone McD’s coffee.  That stuff is garbage!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Even if you don’t covenant to follow the WoW you should feel guilty serving someone McD’s coffee.  That stuff is garbage!

Yeah, I don't know what it tasted like, but judging by how long it sat there sometimes, I probably was committing some kind of violation of the Geneva Convention by serving it.😃

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, john4truth said:

 Marrijuana users do not fight they turn the other cheek

Alcohol is the gateway drug it leads less dangerous but illegal drugs

John, I thought Marijuana was called the gateway drug? And Alcohol a dangerous end.

Edited by Behemoth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Say what you want about my mother pal, but leave my love of terrible music out of this. 

(Seriously, if you name your band after a geographic location, you are going to be awful) 

And my roommate in college LOVED the song "Dust in the Wind". Nice guy, but horrible music taste. 

 

Now wait a gosh darn minute.  Dust in the Wind is one of my favorite songs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

Honestly, I feel like this is an area where you need to be guided by the Holy Ghost. Personally, I don't consider non members bound by the WOW, so what would be a sin for me isn't neccessarily for them. As a result, I didn't feel guilty working at McDonald's and making their, I'm guessing, delicious and not terrible instant coffee☺. I also wouldn't have a problem working as a waiter in a restauraunt that serves liquor, or a clerk in a store that does the same. But if I owned a store myself? That's where I would draw the line. I've seen first-hand the destructive aftermath of alcohol use, so you ain't getting that crap in my store. Ditto for tobacco, albeit not as dangerous as alcohol. I wouldn't judge a member who felt they had to work at the local Budweiser factory to make ends meet, but personally I wouldn't do it.  Basically, if I'm providing a service, I wouldn't feel guilty, but if I was choosing to sell those items, I would feel like that's wrong.

I find it interesting where people draw the line.

For alcohol to get to the consumer there are many steps.  Someone has to grow the crops.  Someone has to make the alcohol.  The alcohol is most likely going to go to at least one distributor and then to a store , to a sales clerk to the end user.  Any point of the chain that is broken prevents the alcohol from reaching the end customer.  Why is one link in the chain any less of an issue than another link?  I am just musing not trying to judge you.  I don't have the answer.

If you were a farmer and the local manufacturer of alcohol wanted to buy your crop for $50k and the next best offer for non-alcoholic purposes was $45k,  would you sell to the alcohol manufacturer?  Or sell to someone else and lose 10% of your profits?

Is making coffee as one of your tasks in you employment any better than making coffee as your only task?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it interesting where people draw the line.

For alcohol to get to the consumer there are many steps.  Someone has to grow the crops.  Someone has to make the alcohol.  The alcohol is most likely going to go to at least one distributor and then to a store , to a sales clerk to the end user.  Any point of the chain that is broken prevents the alcohol from reaching the end customer.  Why is one link in the chain any less of an issue than another link?  I am just musing not trying to judge you.  I don't have the answer.

If you were a farmer and the local manufacturer of alcohol wanted to buy your crop for $50k and the next best offer for non-alcoholic purposes was $45k,  would you sell to the alcohol manufacturer?  Or sell to someone else and lose 10% of your profits?

Is making coffee as one of your tasks in you employment any better than making coffee as your only task?

 

No I understand. That's why I said that it would require direction by the Holy Ghost if I were in any of these scenarios. I would have to seek the Lord's guidance before I got involved in anything that may be a violation of my principles. I think that's one reason we are given the Gift of the Holy Ghost is to find our way through murky decisions where what's right and wrong are not immediately clear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MormonGator
46 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

I find it interesting where people draw the line

Remember, this is all online too. 

When you have a job in the real world and that job is the sole thing keeping your family fed and your bills paid, you'll be much more likely to swallow a bitter pill and do something you might not do in your private life.  If that means being a waiter who brings out beer and wine, you do it. If that means working at a convenience store and selling cigarettes, cigars or weed-you do it. If that means promoting an attractive woman at a car dealership in order to increase sales, you either do it or you look for other employment. 

Welcome to the real world, kid. It's not as black and white as mommy and daddy told you. 

Edited by MormonGator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I feel very sad when someone leaves the church because they don’t feel that their employment is not congruent with church teachings. I am really careful not to look disapproving of people so that no one feels judged based on my reaction.

I can't think of too many professions that I would frown on....  exotic dancer, escort, porn star, etc.  Not too many out there.  For the record, I don't have a problem with members selling, making or distributing alcohol.  However, I don't feel they would be able to that good at their job either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Seriously, if you name your band after a geographic location, you are going to be awful

Pretty sure Boston disproves that theory. And Asia was better than average.

And of course, there's a little band named after the village of Led Zeppelin in Stratford-upon-Avon...

Edited by Vort

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MormonGator
1 hour ago, Vort said:

Pretty sure Boston disproves that theory. And Asia was better than average.

And of course, there's a little band named after the village of Led Zeppelin in Stratford-upon-Avon...

The irony is that I don't like Led Zeppelin either. 
Anyone who likes the song Stairway to Heaven should never be allowed to listen to music again. Ever. 

Edited by MormonGator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Yes they will

Interesting.  I will admit to buying two quick picks any time the jackpot clears half a billion, and partly because when it was over a billion, I really wanted my first egregious display of newfound wealth to be putting the bishop in the position of having to turn down a $100 million tithing check and seeing if he could/would do it.

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

When you have a job in the real world and that job is the sole thing keeping your family fed and your bills paid, you'll be much more likely to swallow a bitter pill and do something you might not do in your private life.

This, though I'd say that working in or owning a gas station, grocery store, restaurant or other place where alcohol and/or tobacco sales are more incidental to the primary product(s) isn't really a big deal at all.  OTOH, I'd personally rather scrub toilets than work in a typical bar where a significant number of the patrons are going purely to drink irresponsibly and make terrible decisions about who to go home with. 

Liquor stores would be something of a middle ground, to be determined on an individual basis; some cater to more refined tastes, primarily carrying higher quality products that are meant to take one's time with and enjoy the flavor, (I had a fifth of Glenlivet that lasted me from age 23 to nearly 30, and I think I lost it in a move with at least a couple inches still in it.  A fifth of bourbon we received as a wedding present would have outlasted the marriage had her brother not finished off the still-2/3-full bottle in a week.) and some stock mainly the cheapest rotgut available for the "I just wanna chug this and get wasted" crowd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, NightSG said:

This, though I'd say that working in or owning a gas station, grocery store, restaurant or other place where alcohol and/or tobacco sales are more incidental to the primary product(s) isn't really a big deal at all.  OTOH, I'd personally rather scrub toilets than work in a typical bar where a significant number of the patrons are going purely to drink irresponsibly and make terrible decisions about who to go home with. 

It's not easy. When you work in the dreaded private sector and you have bills to pay and children who need food, you realize very quickly that you'll do business and serve people who you don't like or agree with. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to work at a casino as a security guard then a warehouse worker.  It paid the bills but I did not feel good about my work.  Our business lied to people about all the money they would win and instead played them with manipulative and deceitful games where most of our clients would lose money.  They would increase their profits by getting the gamblers drunk.  I liked our restaurants, buffet and hotel, but I did not like the casino. 

I got training in Information Technology and moved to a new location.  Now I work helping the United States Armed Forces keep their computer running.  I feel much better about my employment now and my life.  Thankfully I am also making significantly more money than I was working at a casino.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's not easy. When you work in the dreaded private sector and you have bills to pay and children who need food, you realize very quickly that you'll do business and serve people who you don't like or agree with. 

Right, and I've scrubbed more than my share of toilets for minimum wage or not much over to keep from doing jobs I have a substantial moral (or other - I don't particularly care to deal with drunks at all, even if my job doesn't contribute to their getting that way, so law enforcement or graveyard shift fast food on bar night is in the "I'd rather scrub a toilet" category) objection to.

Edited by NightSG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MormonGator
8 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Right, and I've scrubbed more than my share of toilets for minimum wage or not much over to keep from doing jobs I have a substantial moral objection to.

Same here my friend. 

If you or I told our bosses that "Sally ordered wine with dinner,  I refuse to serve her." or "What? I have to be the cashier for a guy who purchased a Playboy?! No! No! No! " our bosses would have listened, nodded politely, given us our final paycheck and told us not to bother coming in tomorrow. 

Edited by MormonGator

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Vort said:

Pretty sure Boston disproves that theory. And Asia was better than average.

Berlin.

Chicago, while IMO, very overrated, wasn't awful.

Alabama.  (Amusingly, they're from Florida.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think I would feel comfortable selling those things.  It's essentially gaining financially from someone's use of a product the Lord has told us to refrain from.  

Should a Mormon own a brewery?  A tobacco farm?  To me, those are the same as selling cigarettes and booze at the counter.  Either they're okay or they aren't.  Scale is irrelevant.

As for doing what one must to earn a living...  well I admit I am a software engineer so that isn't tonight come into play for me, but it feels like not taking such a job is a matter of faith just like tithing. Easy to justify doing whatever on the grounds that we need the money, hard to implement at times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

If that means promoting an attractive woman at a car dealership in order to increase sales, you either do it or you look for other employment. 

Or hire a team of models to sell a laser cutter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

If you or I told our bosses that "Sally ordered wine with dinner,  I refuse to serve her." or "What? I have to be the cashier for a guy who purchased a Playboy?! No! No! No! " our bosses would have listened, nodded politely, given us our final paycheck and told us not to bother coming in tomorrow. 

I baptized a man on my mission who owned franchise of a very successful convenience store chain.  He was not rich.  But he had a comfortable living.  After he was baptized, he mentioned in a discussion very similar to this thread that he had misgivings about selling the alcohol, tobacco, and magazines that were available in the store. He only had so much power to change the inventory of the store that was often dictated by headquarters.

He didn't really know what to do at that moment.  But he was pondering and praying about it to determine the best course of action.  By the time I left, he was seriously considering selling the franchise and finding other work.  I never got to hear if he actually did so or not.  But it bothered him enough that he spent a lot of time pondering it.

So, when we are looking at situations like this, we need to accept that those individuals are often very aware of the moral ambiguity of the position they are in.  And they're trying to figure things out where.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now