Lost Boy

Selling Alcohol

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Guest MormonGator
Just now, Carborendum said:

I baptized a man on my mission who owned franchise of a very successful convenience store chain.  He was not rich.  But he had a comfortable living.  After he was baptized, he mentioned in a discussion very similar to this thread that he had misgivings about selling the alcohol, tobacco, and magazines that were available in the store. He only had so much power to change the inventory of the store that was often dictated by headquarters.

He didn't really know what to do at that moment.  But he was pondering and praying about it to determine the best course of action.  By the time I left, he was seriously considering selling the franchise and finding other work.  I never got to hear if he actually did so or not.  But it bothered him enough that he spent a lot of time pondering it.

So, when we are looking at situations like this, we need to accept that those individuals are often very aware of the moral ambiguity of the position they are in.  And they're trying to figure things out where.

Agree. If it works for them, great. 

And for every guy like him, there is a Marriott hotel chain (which still has the book of Mormon in it, I think. Good for them) that has a bar in it or sells alcohol in their little shop. So it's not a black/white issue. 

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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Should a Mormon own a brewery?  A tobacco farm?  To me, those are the same as selling cigarettes and booze at the counter.  Either they're okay or they aren't.  Scale is irrelevant.

Yup. Prostitution doesn’t become ok, because you’re starving. Or does it?....

choose what is right let the consequence follow

yeah, when it’s time to break one commandment to follow another, we need God’s help and approval to decide.

Edited by Behemoth

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50 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I don't think I would feel comfortable selling those things.  It's essentially gaining financially from someone's use of a product the Lord has told us to refrain from.  

Should a Mormon own a brewery?  A tobacco farm?  To me, those are the same as selling cigarettes and booze at the counter.  Either they're okay or they aren't.  Scale is irrelevant.

As for doing what one must to earn a living...  well I admit I am a software engineer so that isn't tonight come into play for me, but it feels like not taking such a job is a matter of faith just like tithing. Easy to justify doing whatever on the grounds that we need the money, hard to implement at times.

 You make some great points, as you always do of course. I know what you are saying. 

Just speaking only for me of course, I'm always a bit uncomfortable to tell someone that what they do for a living is immoral in some way. After all, I'm not paying their bills and feeding their family. To me it's a bit like telling the coach he should have started a different quarterback. Easy for me to say-I'm not the one whose livelihood depends on those choices. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 You make some great points, as you always do of course. I know what you are saying. 

Just speaking only for me of course, I'm always a bit uncomfortable to tell someone that what they do for a living is immoral in some way. After all, I'm not paying their bills and feeding their family. To me it's a bit like telling the coach he should have started a different quarterback. Easy for me to say-I'm not the one whose livelihood depends on those choices. 

You are too kind, sir.

That's all true, which is why I don't judge.  (Ok, I feel inclined to judge but I know that's wrong so I try not to.)  

I guess we each draw the line where it makes the most sense to us, and just try to be consistent.

Kinda like so many issues, right?  'R' rated movies, modesty, dating nonmembers...

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2 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I guess we each draw the line where it makes the most sense to us, and just try to be consistent.

So true. 

I wish the questions in life were easy and black and white. Some certainly are. But most aren't. 

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3 hours ago, Behemoth said:

Yup. Prostitution doesn’t become ok, because you’re starving. Or does it?....

I suspect that, like drug dealing, many of those who do it once because they legitimately need more money faster than they can reasonably expect to get it from any legal method, get dragged into doing it full time and/or long term by the promise of far more money for similarly little effort.

On the other hand, a slight variation of prostitution is somewhat legitimized even in LDS and other cultures to the extent that a woman (or man, though off the top of my head, the two guys I can think of who did similar actually married the women then divorced them within two years, so they'd have gotten half the bank accounts anyway) isn't expected or required to return even relatively large gifts given by a suitor after the breakup; for example I know of one LDS woman who has admitted to dating guys she doesn't like for several months at a time just so they'll buy her new clothes and other things.  I know a non-member who brags about doing the same to get a car.  

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16 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So true. 

I wish the questions in life were easy and black and white. Some certainly are. But most aren't. 

I think the goal in life is to understand and make them as black and white as possible. There are intricacies (forgot the better word) that require specific reactions. I think, God will absolutely help us in guidance, (or not harshly judge us, in our confusion. If he is REALLY, withholding knowledge) All we need to do is seek. 

13 hours ago, NightSG said:

I suspect that, like drug dealing, many of those who do it once because they legitimately need more money faster than they can reasonably expect to get it from any legal method, get dragged into doing it full time and/or long term by the promise of far more money for similarly little effort.

On the other hand, a slight variation of prostitution is somewhat legitimized even in LDS and other cultures to the extent that a woman (or man, though off the top of my head, the two guys I can think of who did similar actually married the women then divorced them within two years, so they'd have gotten half the bank accounts anyway) isn't expected or required to return even relatively large gifts given by a suitor after the breakup; for example I know of one LDS woman who has admitted to dating guys she doesn't like for several months at a time just so they'll buy her new clothes and other things.  I know a non-member who brags about doing the same to get a car.  

Will a man, sell his soul for the world ?

 things aren’t so clear when we step out of the influence of the light. (Even if we may think we’re still in it). Courage in small things goes a very long way. 

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On 5/23/2018 at 12:16 PM, NightSG said:

Interesting.  I will admit to buying two quick picks any time the jackpot clears half a billion, and partly because when it was over a billion, I really wanted my first egregious display of newfound wealth to be putting the bishop in the position of having to turn down a $100 million tithing check and seeing if he could/would do it.

This, though I'd say that working in or owning a gas station, grocery store, restaurant or other place where alcohol and/or tobacco sales are more incidental to the primary product(s) isn't really a big deal at all.  OTOH, I'd personally rather scrub toilets than work in a typical bar where a significant number of the patrons are going purely to drink irresponsibly and make terrible decisions about who to go home with. 

Liquor stores would be something of a middle ground, to be determined on an individual basis; some cater to more refined tastes, primarily carrying higher quality products that are meant to take one's time with and enjoy the flavor, (I had a fifth of Glenlivet that lasted me from age 23 to nearly 30, and I think I lost it in a move with at least a couple inches still in it.  A fifth of bourbon we received as a wedding present would have outlasted the marriage had her brother not finished off the still-2/3-full bottle in a week.) and some stock mainly the cheapest rotgut available for the "I just wanna chug this and get wasted" crowd.

A member store owner was harrassed by members for selling loto tickets. He quit the church said his biggest customer was the bishop. Told me himself.

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On 5/23/2018 at 12:51 AM, john4truth said:

Not unless you are big. My question is will the church take tithing on liquor sales since they don't on gambling. Yes weed is different it does not kill people like alcohol. Alcohol kills more people than all drugs combined. Marrijuana users do not fight they turn the other cheek

Alcohol is the gateway drug it leads less dangerous but illegal drugs

I know a man who quit the church he was being shamed by members but said best customer was his bishop. The word of wisdom was given as health suggestions. It was many many years before leaders had to change it. I follow it but do not believe it is a Celestial requirement. Of the drugs alcohol is the worst, kills more than all others combined . Pot is the better alternative alcohol killed my dad. I find potheads much nicer to be around. Celestials qualifications be about being Christ like.. Joseph Smith brought hard liquor to prisoners in torment. Eternally we must learn to love first and question later. If I am mean, gossip,con man, liar,cheat, rude, ugly to simple or poor, not sharing, or cast shame on others it would be better if I violated the word of wisdom. We are becoming pharasees selfishly following rules but not caring about others. I find we are not Christ like towards others we are wasting our time pretending to be desciple of Christ.

On 5/23/2018 at 8:38 AM, Lost Boy said:

I find it interesting where people draw the line.

For alcohol to get to the consumer there are many steps.  Someone has to grow the crops.  Someone has to make the alcohol.  The alcohol is most likely going to go to at least one distributor and then to a store , to a sales clerk to the end user.  Any point of the chain that is broken prevents the alcohol from reaching the end customer.  Why is one link in the chain any less of an issue than another link?  I am just musing not trying to judge you.  I don't have the answer.

If you were a farmer and the local manufacturer of alcohol wanted to buy your crop for $50k and the next best offer for non-alcoholic purposes was $45k,  would you sell to the alcohol manufacturer?  Or sell to someone else and lose 10% of your profits?

Is making coffee as one of your tasks in you employment any better than making coffee as your only task?

 

The Church made alcohol and Joseph Smith brought hard liquor to the members stressed by imprisonment.How you treat others will be what matters not if you drink tea.. Marriott s have porn but that is not what matters is how good and honest you are with others

Edited by john4truth
Typos

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6 hours ago, john4truth said:

I know a man who quit the church he was being shamed by members but said best customer was his bishop. The word of wisdom was given as health suggestions. It was many many years before leaders had to change it. I follow it but do not believe it is a Celestial requirement. Of the drugs alcohol is the worst, kills more than all others combined . Pot is the better alternative alcohol killed my dad. I find potheads much nicer to be around. Celestials qualifications be about being Christ like.. Joseph Smith brought hard liquor to prisoners in torment. Eternally we must learn to love first and question later. If I am mean, gossip,con man, liar,cheat, rude, ugly to simple or poor, not sharing, or cast shame on others it would be better if I violated the word of wisdom. We are becoming pharasees selfishly following rules but not caring about others. I find we are not Christ like towards others we are wasting our time pretending to be desciple of Christ.

The Church made alcohol and Joseph Smith brought hard liquor to the members stressed by imprisonment.How you treat others will be what matters not if you drink tea.. Marriott s have porn but that is not what matters is how good and honest you are with others

Are you carrying on a conversation with yourself?

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7 hours ago, john4truth said:

Marriott s have porn...

FYI, you need to update your list of criticisms a tad.  This hasn't been true in seven years.

Marriott hotels will stop offering in-room adult movies - Washington Post January 2011

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On 5/22/2018 at 7:05 PM, Lost Boy said:

As a member of the church can you sell alcohol for a living?

Own a liquor store?

Own a supermarket that sells alcohol?

Own a hotel that has alcohol available?

Own a restaurant that sells alcohol?

Be a waiter or waitress that serves alcohol?

How about owning a starbucks??

Where do you draw the line?

Of course the follow up question would be related to weed...

If I am working for an employer I respect their wishes and sell the items they desire to sell. If my spirit bothers me about it I'll quit and find a job where I can feel comfortable. As far as me selling items, in my OWN business, that would cause my brothers to sin? The answer is easy: I would NOT

Do I have to aid and abet?  Absolutely not. I don't even buy my friends coffee when I am treating them. I will get them a juice or another beverage. 

Am I doing it because I am self righteous? Nope. I am too acquainted with Hell already to want others to go there. Especially not on my watch or dime.

Do I judge people who indulge in these items? No. I learned to judge righteously. Especially after being the DD during my "learning to be a responsible Christian phase". I cannot, in clear conscience, allow myself or others to be deceived and  lulled in the embrace of addiction.

Here is a scripture I Love

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/josh/24.15

No one is perfect, that's why it is so important to better than we were yesterday. EVERYDAY is a great day to repent and make progress.

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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

If I am working for an employer I respect their wishes and sell the items they desire to sell. If my spirit bothers me about it I'll quit and find a job where I can feel comfortable. As far as me selling items, in my OWN business, that would cause my brothers to sin? The answer is easy: I would NOT

Do I have to aid and abet?  Absolutely not. I don't even buy my friends coffee when I am treating them. I will get them a juice or another beverage. 

Am I doing it because I am self righteous? Nope. I am too acquainted with Hell already to want others to go there. Especially not on my watch or dime.

Do I judge people who indulge in these items? No. I learned to judge righteously. Especially after being the DD during my "learning to be a responsible Christian phase". I cannot, in clear conscience, allow myself or others to be deceived and  lulled in the embrace of addiction.

Here is a scripture I Love

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/josh/24.15

No one is perfect, that's why it is so important to better than we were yesterday. EVERYDAY is a great day to repent and make progress.

Just curious, where do you draw the line? After all, virtually any job will have you encounter people whose choices you don't agree with. 

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11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Just curious, where do you draw the line? After all, virtually any job will have you encounter people whose choices you don't agree with. 

Hey Gator,

My line is simple. If I have full say and control we will not be selling any items listed in the w.o.w as non consumables.

Do I have less friends because I don't go to bars and clubs with them? Yes and no. I work in a very stressful work environment and the team goes out together to drink and indulge in immoral entertainment. They have learned to love and respect me the way I love and respect them. Even though they don't invite me anymore, due to me politely refusing, they know I have their back if crap ever hits the fan.

Edited by Overwatch
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5 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

Hey Gator,

My line is simple. If I have full say and control we will not be selling any items listed in the w.o.w as non consumables.

I understand and respect that POV, that's for sure. Even if I disagree with it. 

In some parts of the country, if you plan on running a connivence store or especially a restaurant and you don't sell alcohol or scratch tickets, you will be in business for approximately three days. While I'm not saying you can own a Hooters franchise and be a member in good standing of the church (I don't know, can you?) , sometimes you need to remember that the real world is a bit more gray than what we'd like to admit. 

Edited by MormonGator

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I understand and respect that POV, that's for sure. Even if I disagree with it. 

@zil,

Is this another POV to add to your list?

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I understand and respect that POV, that's for sure. Even if I disagree with it. 

In some parts of the country, if you plan on running a connivence store or especially a restaurant and you don't sell alcohol or scratch tickets, you will be in business for approximately three days. While I'm not saying you can own a Hooters franchise and be a member in good standing of the church (I don't know, can you?) , sometimes you need to remember that the real world is a bit more gray than what we'd like to admit. 

The real world sucks. If I am forced to open a convenience store I am moving to Utah and taking my chances there. As far as running a Hooties and already being a Father of all daughters, it's not gonna happen. If brother Jones wants to run one that's between him and the Almighty and his Bishop.

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Just now, Overwatch said:

If brother Jones wants to run one that's between him and the Almighty and his Bishop.

Those are my thoughts as well, more or less. 

I'm also uncomfortable telling someone how to make a living unless I'm paying his bills and feeding his family. 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Those are my thoughts as well, more or less. 

I'm also uncomfortable telling someone how to make a living unless I'm paying his bills and feeding his family. 

That's why we have Prophets and they are usually the first to die or leave town once the people are ripe for destrctuction.

They aren't ashamed of the gospel or afraid of man.

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8 hours ago, Overwatch said:

As far as running a Hooties and already being a Father of all daughters, it's not gonna happen. If brother Jones wants to run one that's between him and the Almighty and his Bishop.

What is it exactly that you think happens in a Hooters Restaurant? have you ever even been to one?

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