Lionizing Eve


MrShorty
 Share

Recommended Posts

The other thread about Eve's curse brought back a concern I had about our SS lesson earlier this year about the fall. I thought I would throw my reaction to the lesson out here and see what this community thinks. It has been said many times in many ways that LDS do not vilify Adam and Eve for falling -- certainly not the same way that most of Christendom does. However, in our lesson on the fall this year, the teacher was, IMO, too pro-Eve (if that is possible). Basically, my reaction to the way Eve was lionized in the less comes out as: God said "Don't eat the fruit of that tree! (wink, wink)". Of the two, Eve was the one smart enough to recognize those winks as permission to violate this commandment. Adam wasn't smart enough to recognize the wink. It seems to me that this sets up a rather dangerous precedent -- God gives a commandment with the intention that it will be broken. Or perhaps in a more progressive vein, God gives conflicting commandments and Eve took it upon herself to decide which of the conflicting commandments God wanted her to break (without being patient and waiting for God to explain His conflicting commandments).

I guess to me, the whole thing seems a lot more complicated than either extreme. Not "Eve is a horrible person for breaking the commandment (and Adam is almost as horrible for following her)", but I also don't think "Eve was extraordinarily courageous for breaking God's commandment (and Adam less so for following her)" really satisfies.

In the end, God's purposes were fulfilled, and the plan of salvation as we know it is in place to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not our place to judge Adam and Eve, and our best attempts to understand the nuances of what happened may just be idle speculation. I would be interested in others' thoughts.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

The other thread about Eve's curse brought back a concern I had about our SS lesson earlier this year about the fall. I thought I would throw my reaction to the lesson out here and see what this community thinks. It has been said many times in many ways that LDS do not vilify Adam and Eve for falling -- certainly not the same way that most of Christendom does. However, in our lesson on the fall this year, the teacher was, IMO, too pro-Eve (if that is possible). Basically, my reaction to the way Eve was lionized in the less comes out as: God said "Don't eat the fruit of that tree! (wink, wink)". Of the two, Eve was the one smart enough to recognize those winks as permission to violate this commandment. Adam wasn't smart enough to recognize the wink. It seems to me that this sets up a rather dangerous precedent -- God gives a commandment with the intention that it will be broken. Or perhaps in a more progressive vein, God gives conflicting commandments and Eve took it upon herself to decide which of the conflicting commandments God wanted her to break (without being patient and waiting for God to explain His conflicting commandments).

I guess to me, the whole thing seems a lot more complicated than either extreme. Not "Eve is a horrible person for breaking the commandment (and Adam is almost as horrible for following her)", but I also don't think "Eve was extraordinarily courageous for breaking God's commandment (and Adam less so for following her)" really satisfies.

In the end, God's purposes were fulfilled, and the plan of salvation as we know it is in place to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not our place to judge Adam and Eve, and our best attempts to understand the nuances of what happened may just be idle speculation. I would be interested in others' thoughts.

 

In consideration of the fact that both Eve and Adam are depicted in the scriptural accounts as being innocent, inexperienced, unsophisticated and childlike, beings with a limited comprehension of both good evil because the eyes of their spiritual understanding were not yet open to a mature understanding of these two opposing principles, it’s hard to imagine either one of them knew enough in order to be considered truly heroic. It wasn’t until after partaking of the forbidden fruit that Eve was more clearly able to understand the ultimately positive consequences of her actions, and she admits as much in the following passage in which she testifies that it wasn’t until she and her husband accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, and received the gift of the Holy Ghost, that she was able to fathom the true meaning and ramifications of her actions.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5) 

So there it is in black and white, she didn’t know about and couldn’t have known about the meaning of good and evil and the plan of salvation until after she had partaken of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Edited by Jersey Boy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't know how much training Adam and Mother Eve had received up until that point. We don't know when God planned to give them the fruit to eat. It was a sad thing they partook of the fruit as they did. They were commanded to leave rather than having a lovely goodbye. They broke a commandment of God and were then released into a fallen world.

Eve was deceived by a Devil to take something that was not hers. Adam was wise enough to follow suit and partake so that Eve would not be alone [Every couple is different. Don't assume all men are more wise or ALL women will disobey God's commands] They made lemonade when life gave them lemons. God still loved them and the plan continued, that allowed holy spirits to come down and gain bodies. Satan failed in his attempt to disrupt the plan, Father Michael (as in first man on Earth, NOT Adam God) Kept the family together with Eve and lived, from my understanding, pretty close to the time of the Great Flood. Teaching and nourishing their posterity

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eve recognized the effects of her decision post hoc, as recorded in the Book of Moses.  But to take her statement in Moses as a suggestion that she did the deed knowingly and in righteousness, is an example of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.  

Eve flatly acknowledged to the Lord that the serpent “beguiled” her, both in the Book of Genesis account and the Book of Moses account.  Paul confirms this in 1 Timothy 2:14–Eve acted in ignorance; whereas Adam made a knowing and deliberate decision to stay with her. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

The other thread about Eve's curse brought back a concern I had about our SS lesson earlier this year about the fall. I thought I would throw my reaction to the lesson out here and see what this community thinks. It has been said many times in many ways that LDS do not vilify Adam and Eve for falling -- certainly not the same way that most of Christendom does. However, in our lesson on the fall this year, the teacher was, IMO, too pro-Eve (if that is possible). Basically, my reaction to the way Eve was lionized in the less comes out as: God said "Don't eat the fruit of that tree! (wink, wink)". Of the two, Eve was the one smart enough to recognize those winks as permission to violate this commandment. Adam wasn't smart enough to recognize the wink. It seems to me that this sets up a rather dangerous precedent -- God gives a commandment with the intention that it will be broken. Or perhaps in a more progressive vein, God gives conflicting commandments and Eve took it upon herself to decide which of the conflicting commandments God wanted her to break (without being patient and waiting for God to explain His conflicting commandments).

I guess to me, the whole thing seems a lot more complicated than either extreme. Not "Eve is a horrible person for breaking the commandment (and Adam is almost as horrible for following her)", but I also don't think "Eve was extraordinarily courageous for breaking God's commandment (and Adam less so for following her)" really satisfies.

In the end, God's purposes were fulfilled, and the plan of salvation as we know it is in place to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not our place to judge Adam and Eve, and our best attempts to understand the nuances of what happened may just be idle speculation. I would be interested in others' thoughts.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1987/10/lessons-from-eve?lang=eng

 “She was designed by Deity to cocreate and nurture life, that the great plan of the Father might achieve fruition.” To me this conveys that she was designed with other divine attributes such as wisdom and courage that contribute to the same fruition.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/constancy-amid-change?lang=eng

“We and all mankind are forever blessed because of Eve’s great courage and wisdom. By partaking of the fruit first, she did what needed to be done.” While she was beguiled to disobey the second commandment despite these attributes, perhaps there was an element of them in her decision to obey the first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, MrShorty said:

The other thread about Eve's curse brought back a concern I had about our SS lesson earlier this year about the fall. I thought I would throw my reaction to the lesson out here and see what this community thinks. It has been said many times in many ways that LDS do not vilify Adam and Eve for falling -- certainly not the same way that most of Christendom does. However, in our lesson on the fall this year, the teacher was, IMO, too pro-Eve (if that is possible). Basically, my reaction to the way Eve was lionized in the less comes out as: God said "Don't eat the fruit of that tree! (wink, wink)". Of the two, Eve was the one smart enough to recognize those winks as permission to violate this commandment. Adam wasn't smart enough to recognize the wink. It seems to me that this sets up a rather dangerous precedent -- God gives a commandment with the intention that it will be broken. Or perhaps in a more progressive vein, God gives conflicting commandments and Eve took it upon herself to decide which of the conflicting commandments God wanted her to break (without being patient and waiting for God to explain His conflicting commandments).

I guess to me, the whole thing seems a lot more complicated than either extreme. Not "Eve is a horrible person for breaking the commandment (and Adam is almost as horrible for following her)", but I also don't think "Eve was extraordinarily courageous for breaking God's commandment (and Adam less so for following her)" really satisfies.

In the end, God's purposes were fulfilled, and the plan of salvation as we know it is in place to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. It is not our place to judge Adam and Eve, and our best attempts to understand the nuances of what happened may just be idle speculation. I would be interested in others' thoughts.

With the fall, two important scriptures modern revelation has brought back to Light are the following (as the Fall is a conundrum from the limited understanding in scripture we are provided):

1) Mose 3: 16-17, "And I, the Lord God, commanded the man, saying: Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

2) Moses 1: 39, "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

It has been said many times in many ways that LDS do not vilify Adam and Eve for falling -- certainly not the same way that most of Christendom does.

This would be an accurate sentiment. We have no reason to vilify Adam, nor do we have any reason to vilify Eve. Without the choice from Eve, and without the choice from Adam to remain with Eve to bring to pass the mortality we would not be here discussing the Fall.

However, in our lesson on the fall this year, the teacher was, IMO, too pro-Eve (if that is possible).

Yes, this is possible if individuals seek to put Eve on a higher pedestal than Adam; however, as to your lesson I wouldn't be able to make a decision as to whether or not Eve was lionized over Adam. Adam eventually would have saw the same thing as Eve, and I assume Adam would have actually conversed more with God rather than being beguiled by Satan.

Which brings up a random thought, was Eve's fault more that she did not consult with her husband (Adam) before partaking. As the scenario could have played out, "Adam, I was informed we would not know......"  Adam response, "I don't know Eve, let's wait for the Father to come and then ask him."

If we are saying Adam wasn't smart enough, I would agree this sets up a dangerous precedent, and would fuel the fire for some feminists (radical).

As not to get into any specifics, the temple now is providing (showing) a whole new side to Eve. Eve wasn't naively beguiled. Eve acted, chose, with some form of knowledge. I will stop there.

God gives a commandment with the [choice] that it [may] be broken.

I have changed the original with two different words. The commandment in the garden is the only commandment in scripture (that we currently have) that specifies:

1) Do not partake

2) Nevertheless, choose for yourself

3) Cast out.

Let's review our ten commandments and how different these might be interpreted with the following condition:

1) Thou shalt not commit adultery; nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself.

2) Thou shalt not steal; nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself.

3) Thou shalt not covet; nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself.

We already know that without the Fall Moses 1:39 would not be brought to pass, and thus bringing about scriptures regarding God ceasing to be God. So "intention" may not be the right word, but definitely "foreknowledge" and "foresight."

The only part of the ten commandments is the command.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share