Lying about word of wisdom

[Coeurgirl]

My husband is a convert of 4 years, in his late 40’s, and has always struggled with addictions. Nothing serious. He finally quit smoking 8 years ago, and drinking alcohol 4 years ago. Or so I think. The thing is, he’s pretty secretive, and I have found receipts in random places showing he’s bought coffee or alcohol. Each step of the way in his progression of the church, he’s been heavily persuaded to move forward. (Not by me) I found a receipt for Bourbon in our garage (he’s not that good at destroying the evidence) a few months after him being baptized, which made me realize just how hard it will be for him to really quit his vices. He was broken up when I confronted him about it. I told him he needed to talk to the Bishop about it, which he did, and they postponed his receiving the Melchezidek priesthood. Just when I think all’s well, I’m delivered a blow. After our sealing 2 years ago, I found a brown paper bag with a whiskey receipt. I felt sick to my stomach because I thought he was better. And the fact that he lied to me is what ticks me off the most. The lies. He admits he’s imperfect but he does have a testimony. I just don’t know what to do. We’re supposed to renew our temple recommends and I’m 99% sure he’s still drinking coffee. I’ve even driven by him at a coffee drive-thru and he texted me he ordered a “hot chocolate”. Yeah right. He just won’t tell me the truth. Even when I say I won’t be mad, he stonewalls me. Am I making a big deal of nothing? Should I tell our Bishop when we have our interviews? Or is this his business? It’s just so disappointing. I always go to the temple with my mom or sisters because I feel like it’s a lie if I go with him. 

[Guest MormonGator]

First off, I'm praying for you big time. My heart goes out to you. 

From a converts POV, drinking alcohol and coffee are considered no big deal. In fact, the majority of the world does both fairly frequently. He might not understand the seriousness of the covenants he made at baptism, or he might think breaking them is no big deal, or he just might enjoy coffee, whiskey, etc. His lying to you is a bigger problem, and it's the sign of something more serious. Could he be drinking more than you know, or is he just embarrassed that he's drinking at all? Only he can answer that, obviously. I'm not sure telling the bishop will do much good, because he'll view that as you being a tattletale. It could just make him more secretive in the long run. How long have you both been married?  

[Jane_Doe]

The most important thing here is: does he understand the importance of the covenants he's made with the Lord and is breaking?

Focus first on his bond with the Lord-- he's got to be honest with himself and the lord first, before he can be honest with you.  He's got to be the one to make that step.  Focus on that and HIM comes to terms with HIS actions first.  Be his supportive helpmate during this process-- not a nagger or tattler.   But instead be supportive, encouraging, and teaching

[Sunday21]

Hi. Convert here! It takes a while to get into the swing of things as a convert. I had no idea that attending church was compulsory. My bishop had a very firm interview with me. I thought he was nuts! Took me years to understand even a part of the whole keep the commandments thing. Some where I remember reading advice to converts saying they should not flip out if they smoke the odd cigarette after baptism so maybe the odd slip up is okay. But the lying to you? Not okay. That...Demands an intervention.

[Coeurgirl]

39 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

First off, I'm praying for you big time. My heart goes out to you. 

From a converts POV, drinking alcohol and coffee are considered no big deal. In fact, the majority of the world does both fairly frequently. He might not understand the seriousness of the covenants he made at baptism, or he might think breaking them is no big deal, or he just might enjoy coffee, whiskey, etc. His lying to you is a bigger problem, and it's the sign of something more serious. Could he be drinking more than you know, or is he just embarrassed that he's drinking at all? Only he can answer that, obviously. I'm not sure telling the bishop will do much good, because he'll view that as you being a tattletale. It could just make him more secretive in the long run. How long have you both been married?  

We’ve been married for 14 years, and made some major life changes since our beginnings. I was inactive when we married. I really think he doesn’t understand the seriousness of his covenants. He’s very annoyed if I start “preaching” to him, because I grew up in the church and I have a deeper understanding of the gospel. So I don’t. It’s so hard to be patient and gently nudge him into this relatively new lifestyle. I really think he’s embarrassed and ashamed. That is why he doesn’t want to talk about it. I know he has a testimony but he just struggles with his vices. It’s so frustrating. 

[Coeurgirl]

35 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The most important thing here is: does he understand the importance of the covenants he's made with the Lord and is breaking?

Focus first on his bond with the Lord-- he's got to be honest with himself and the lord first, before he can be honest with you.  He's got to be the one to make that step.  Focus on that and HIM comes to terms with HIS actions first.  Be his supportive helpmate during this process-- not a nagger or tattler.   But instead be supportive, encouraging, and teaching

Thank you, I love this advice. I fluctuate between anger and compassion. I’ve had spiritual promptings throughout our marriage to be patient with him. It’s hard, especially when all my sisters married men that are so squeaky clean and seemingly perfect! 

[Coeurgirl]

19 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Hi. Convert here! It takes a while to get into the swing of things as a convert. I had no idea that attending church was compulsory. My bishop had a very firm interview with me. I thought he was nuts! Took me years to understand even a part of the whole keep the commandments thing. Some where I remember reading advice to converts saying they should not flip out if they smoke the odd cigarette after baptism so maybe the odd slip up is okay. But the lying to you? Not okay. That...Demands an intervention.

Yes I agree. I have to remind myself that I can’t expect him to be a perfect Mormon man as he’s spent 40+ years of his life not being one! And the lying is a problem. He does have mental health issues so I think it’s tied into that. He’s always been open that he’s rough around the edges but he cries more than anyone else I know when people bear their testimonies. His heart is very much touched by the spirit but his manly vices confound things. 

[Overwatch]

2 hours ago, Coeurgirl said:

My husband is a convert of 4 years, in his late 40’s, and has always struggled with addictions. Nothing serious. He finally quit smoking 8 years ago, and drinking alcohol 4 years ago. Or so I think. The thing is, he’s pretty secretive, and I have found receipts in random places showing he’s bought coffee or alcohol. Each step of the way in his progression of the church, he’s been heavily persuaded to move forward. (Not by me) I found a receipt for Bourbon in our garage (he’s not that good at destroying the evidence) a few months after him being baptized, which made me realize just how hard it will be for him to really quit his vices. He was broken up when I confronted him about it. I told him he needed to talk to the Bishop about it, which he did, and they postponed his receiving the Melchezidek priesthood. Just when I think all’s well, I’m delivered a blow. After our sealing 2 years ago, I found a brown paper bag with a whiskey receipt. I felt sick to my stomach because I thought he was better. And the fact that he lied to me is what ticks me off the most. The lies. He admits he’s imperfect but he does have a testimony. I just don’t know what to do. We’re supposed to renew our temple recommends and I’m 99% sure he’s still drinking coffee. I’ve even driven by him at a coffee drive-thru and he texted me he ordered a “hot chocolate”. Yeah right. He just won’t tell me the truth. Even when I say I won’t be mad, he stonewalls me. Am I making a big deal of nothing? Should I tell our Bishop when we have our interviews? Or is this his business? It’s just so disappointing. I always go to the temple with my mom or sisters because I feel like it’s a lie if I go with him. 

Hey CG,

Congrats on making it this far.  I am sure the whole ordeal of him breaking the word of wisdom is eating you up. Don't stop going to the temple. Make sure to put his name in the prayer box and even feel free to fast for him (Just don't tell him you are doing these things) You can rest at ease and know because of your faithfulness your family will be protected. You have been sealed by the Holy Power of God. Your actions while your husband is struggling will keep your family together (EVEN if he dies in his sin) Understand the power of the covenant you made goes beyond the grave. Heavenly Father's Mercy is very powerful but DON'T take advantage of it, God will not be mocked. You can keep this with you  as a gem to not get ulcers. God will bless your family for YOUR righteousness.

Now the mission right now is to get him to stop lying to you. This is very detrimental to any relationship. Go out somewhere private, take a drive or a walk. Get a snack for him or something and then address your issues. Let him know that he can trust you. If he is addicted then help him enroll in a sobriety program and be with him each step of the way (go with him). Be supportive. Each time he messes up just let him know he can tell you.  "Knowing is half the battle" if he has someone to be accountable to it will help  A LOT.

Also help him get to the Bishop, together with the power of the priesthood they will have success. Your husband sounds awesome. We all struggle with different things in this life C :

You got this

[Latter-Day Marriage]

He lies because he is ashamed, or doesn't want to lose standing in your sight.  It doesn't help that you take any setback as some kind of slight against you.  He needs to feel fully loved and fully accepted and fully respected by his spouse even when he slips up in this area and his trying to hide his struggle from you makes me think he doesn't feel that. 

Addictions often have a physical component, like an illness.  Would you react this this if he was having a relapse of cancer?  I know that is not a perfect analogy, but it has value. He is fighting a war against his own body and he needs you as an ally.  It is his relationship with you and his relationship with God that will get him to make progress day by day till it is overcome.  You may wind up facing the same kind of situation with your children later on and if you come down on them or make them feel judged you will drive them away.

[NightSG]

LDM is making sense again.  I need to go make sure I don't have a fever.

[lostinwater]

Very sorry.  Can't be easy, for either of you.

The only thing i can say is that people change slowly.  i know my own progress tends to look much more like today's stock market than a triangle.  His stamina to progress and your ability to offer enough emotional support to aid his progress (ie please take care of yourself here too) are both very fragile things.  Shattering one or both with with hammers of guilt or bottled up anger in the pursuit of a short-term improvements - or the illusion thereof - i'm not sure is in anyone's interest - and definitely not what God or Jesus want either.

You have my prayers, such as they are.

[dellme]

12 hours ago, Coeurgirl said:

After our sealing 2 years ago, I found a brown paper bag with a whiskey receipt. I felt sick to my stomach because I thought he was better. And the fact that he lied to me is what ticks me off the most. The lies. He admits he’s imperfect but he does have a testimony. I just don’t know what to do. We’re supposed to renew our temple recommends and I’m 99% sure he’s still drinking coffee. I’ve even driven by him at a coffee drive-thru and he texted me he ordered a “hot chocolate”. Yeah right. He just won’t tell me the truth. Even when I say I won’t be mad, he stonewalls me. Am I making a big deal of nothing? Should I tell our Bishop when we have our interviews? Or is this his business? It’s just so disappointing. I always go to the temple with my mom or sisters because I feel like it’s a lie if I go with him. 

It’s hard, especially when all my sisters married men that are so squeaky clean and seemingly perfect! 

People lie for one simple reason: they don't want to get into trouble.

That "getting into trouble" could be getting into trouble with themselves, with their spouse, with others, etc. What you have to realize is that this is HIS struggle and battle not YOURS, you are there to support him, but not do it for him.

At this point, of course he's not going to tell you the truth.  Because even if you tell him you aren't mad at him or you aren't upset, your ACTIONS demonstrate something totally different.  Through your words you tell him you aren't mad or upset, but your thoughts, emotions and actions say the complete opposite.  I've highlighted the contradictions.  In effect you are lying to him when you tell him you won't be upset or mad. And my guess is that it will take a while before he will actually stop lying to you b/c you've built up a history of being upset and mad over this sort of thing.

It's like when you discipline a child, if you tell the child "just tell me what happened and I won't be mad" and then you get upset after they tell you, of course they will lie to you the next time and they won't trust you to not get mad. 

Why are you trying to solve HIS problem?  At what point in YOUR temple recommend interview does the Bishop ask about the sins of your husband?  He doesn't, period.  So no, you don't tell your Bishop about your husbands sins. AoF 2: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins".

10 hours ago, Coeurgirl said:

It’s hard, especially when all my sisters married men that are so squeaky clean and seemingly perfect! 

I certainly understand how hurt and upset and filled with regret you could be for not marrying the perfect Mormon guy, but you've got to stop comparing yourself and your marriage to your family. You made the choice to marry him, so you have to deal with that choice and it's your own journey.  Comparing to anyone else will just lead to heartache and pain, in fact it's against the 10 Commandments, Thou shalt not covet.

How to get him to be honest with you?  You need to de-legitimize and de-stigmatize what he is lying over. You need to just clearly tell him, that as his wife you expect him to be honest and forthright in his upcoming temple recommend interview-that if he needs to work through some things before he can go to the temple worthily that's it's OKAY!!!! You need to mean it too!

No side glaces, no sighs, no side comments about being worthy, etc. Nothing, you need to be 100% emotionally and spiritually okay with him needing to work through some things and he needs to know that you are okay with him working through it too.  Then you say, I trust you, whatever the outcome of the temple recommend interview, I trust you! and you need to mean it!

He's a big boy, trust him and let him handle it.

Sidenote:  If you don't want someone to tell you a lie, don't ask them the question. i.e. directly confront about the coffee receipts instead of asking "did you buy coffee?".

 

[Guest MormonGator]

11 hours ago, Coeurgirl said:

 but he just struggles with his vices. 

We all do. He's human after all. 

[zil]

I'm just going to chime in on the side of those saying that the very most important step here is to get your relationship to the point where he doesn't feel like he needs to lie to you - where he doesn't feel like he needs to hide the fact that he's drinking coffee or alcohol.

Giving up these habits should be second to giving up the secrets.

[Lost Boy]

Addictions suck.  If you love him and he loves you and is not abusive to you, then you just got to love him as much as you can.  Don't judge him.   He hates having the addiction as much as you don't want him to have it if not more.  

If you nag him about it, he will continue to hide it.  And chances are you don't know that you are nagging him.  Any mention to him of it will be taken as nagging.

So, if he is not really ready to give it up, would you rather him drink in secret or drink in front of your face?  Chances are he is not ready to quit.  He will probably need to go to AA or something like that to kick this.

But I bet there is a psychological reason why he is drinking.  I suspect there is something in his life that he is having a difficult time with and this is his coping mechanism...

[dellme]

18 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Don't judge him. 

This IMO is false; the scriptures command us to judge-we are just not to judge unrighteous and that's a big difference. Anyone who says we shouldn't judge is teaching false doctrine b/c the scriptures clearly tell us otherwise, we are commanded not to judge unrighteously.

She can clearly judge that what he is doing is against God's commandments, b/c it is!  Judging is all about determining what actions are correct and what actions are incorrect  Now, then there is also judgement affixed with a judge, i.e. what is the discipline or punishment affixed to such judging of actions.  It's certainly not for the wife to determine what discipline should be affixed to breaking the commandments of God-that is for the Bishop to decide.

More importantly though than judging is forgiveness.  You can't forgive other people if you don't judge whether their actions are right or wrong.  Judging and forgiveness go hand in hand you literally can't forgive someone else if you don't judge their actions! "Not judging" renders personal forgiveness of others completely dead. And that's the beauty of forgiveness, it's knowing when other people have committed wrongs (i.e. you are judging) and then forgiving them of their actions.

So yes judge him that he is making incorrect choices in his life, and those choices ARE harming her (she does not have a worthy Priesthood holder in the house), but don't affix punishment or discipline to him for that (that is reserved for his Bishop) and forgive him of those choices that are harmful.

18 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

He hates having the addiction as much as you don't want him to have it if not more.  

No he doesn't . . .that's modern psycho-babble not based upon gospel principles. If he hates it as much as you claim, he would stop period! The fact remains that he enjoys drinking alcohol and coffee or whatever and doesn't see the need to stop. For some reason, why I don't know, we can't seem to admit in the modern world that some people enjoy sin-that is why they do it.  And this is where the Bishop comes in, affixing discipline to an incorrect decision to allow the sinner to reflect upon their mistakes (sometimes that discipline is in the form of punishment sometimes it is in the form of counsel other times it is in a different form) and to become spiritually minded.

Because when you boil it all down, all the 12 step programs in the world, the only one who stops the addiction is the person who has it-i.e. it is a decision or a choice that the person makes to not be "addicted".  Claiming "addiction" is just a lazy-man's way of saying, "I don't want to stop right now b/c I enjoy xyz too much".

Now many people are motivated more by the short-term pleasure than long-term pleasure; in their mind the short-term pleasure of that drug or whatever outweighs everything else. As soon as they see that their long-term happiness is compromised by the short-term pleasure and VALUE long-term happiness more than short-term happiness, the "addiction" will go away.

The scriptures tell us so, all "addictions" are is carnally minded.

Romans 8:6-10

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,neither indeed can be. 

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot* please God. 

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by dellme

[Lost Boy]

7 hours ago, dellme said:

This IMO is false; the scriptures command us to judge-we are just not to judge unrighteous and that's a big difference. Anyone who says we shouldn't judge is teaching false doctrine b/c the scriptures clearly tell us otherwise, we are commanded not to judge unrighteously.

She can clearly judge that what he is doing is against God's commandments, b/c it is!  Judging is all about determining what actions are correct and what actions are incorrect  Now, then there is also judgement affixed with a judge, i.e. what is the discipline or punishment affixed to such judging of actions.  It's certainly not for the wife to determine what discipline should be affixed to breaking the commandments of God-that is for the Bishop to decide.

More importantly though than judging is forgiveness.  You can't forgive other people if you don't judge whether their actions are right or wrong.  Judging and forgiveness go hand in hand you literally can't forgive someone else if you don't judge their actions! "Not judging" renders personal forgiveness of others completely dead. And that's the beauty of forgiveness, it's knowing when other people have committed wrongs (i.e. you are judging) and then forgiving them of their actions.

So yes judge him that he is making incorrect choices in his life, and those choices ARE harming her (she does not have a worthy Priesthood holder in the house), but don't affix punishment or discipline to him for that (that is reserved for his Bishop) and forgive him of those choices that are harmful.

No he doesn't . . .that's modern psycho-babble not based upon gospel principles. If he hates it as much as you claim, he would stop period! The fact remains that he enjoys drinking alcohol and coffee or whatever and doesn't see the need to stop. For some reason, why I don't know, we can't seem to admit in the modern world that some people enjoy sin-that is why they do it.  And this is where the Bishop comes in, affixing discipline to an incorrect decision to allow the sinner to reflect upon their mistakes (sometimes that discipline is in the form of punishment sometimes it is in the form of counsel other times it is in a different form) and to become spiritually minded.

Because when you boil it all down, all the 12 step programs in the world, the only one who stops the addiction is the person who has it-i.e. it is a decision or a choice that the person makes to not be "addicted".  Claiming "addiction" is just a lazy-man's way of saying, "I don't want to stop right now b/c I enjoy xyz too much".

Now many people are motivated more by the short-term pleasure than long-term pleasure; in their mind the short-term pleasure of that drug or whatever outweighs everything else. As soon as they see that their long-term happiness is compromised by the short-term pleasure and VALUE long-term happiness more than short-term happiness, the "addiction" will go away.

The scriptures tell us so, all "addictions" are is carnally minded.

Romans 8:6-10

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God,neither indeed can be. 

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot* please God. 

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

I highly doubt that he enjoys it.  It is something he feels compelled to do.  I have had addictions in the past and they sucked to over come.  The addiction itself brings some amount of pleasure, but you hate having it.  You want to be able to live life without it, but feel compelled to do it.  You feel ashamed that you can't stop.  It is not good.  Church discipline doesn't make it stop.  It just shames the person more.

You either have to fix the thing that is causing the addiction, or you need to replace it with something healthy.  And sometimes the thing causing the addiction is gone, but the addiction remains.   You think people hooked on drugs are happy that they are hooked on drugs?  Most hate it.  sure the drug makes them feel better, but they truly hate having it rule their life.

[dellme]

6 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

I highly doubt that he enjoys it.  It is something he feels compelled to do.  I have had addictions in the past and they sucked to over come.  The addiction itself brings some amount of pleasure, but you hate having it.  You want to be able to live life without it, but feel compelled to do it.  You feel ashamed that you can't stop.  It is not good.  Church discipline doesn't make it stop.  It just shames the person more.

You either have to fix the thing that is causing the addiction, or you need to replace it with something healthy.  And sometimes the thing causing the addiction is gone, but the addiction remains.   You think people hooked on drugs are happy that they are hooked on drugs?  Most hate it.  sure the drug makes them feel better, but they truly hate having it rule their life.

Again, they may "hate" doing it, but they don't hate it enough to stop.  I've also had "addictions" myself, but the scriptures tell us EXACTLY what an "addiction" is, it is love of sin over love of God. "If thy right hand offend thee, CUT IT OFF!"

People in today's society are so jacked up, they think they need counselors or psychologists or whomever to fix their problems, when the honest to God answer is that ALL of the answers to life's problems are found in the scriptures.

I'm sorry dude, I've had "addictions" that I've gone years, even decades with and it is nothing more and nothing less than a love of sin.  I loved the sin too much to stop-oh of course I hated the guilt afterwards (we use the word shame incorrectly, anything that is punishment is now associated with shame which is total crap), the knowledge that I wasn't worthy, but when it boils right down to it- I LOVED SIN MORE THAN GOD!

I've been down the road of "figuring out" the root cause and understanding the psychobabble, but honestly all of that "root cause" was really a self-delusional lie-an excuse for me to cast the blame of the "addiction" on someone else's feet.  When the truth is no one made me do the addiction-I did it myself.  There are no excuses, I can plainly look back now having been a changed man, having more the Light of Christ within me, and I can plainly see and it is quite obvious-it was a love of sin more than God; and that is the root cause of all harmful addictions, love of sin over love of God.

The idea that people are "hooked" on drugs is utter complete bull-it really is.  Yeah actually people who are "hooked" on drugs, love the drug more than they love not being on the drug. It really is that simple.  I know it seems unfathomable for most people, as in why would you love doing cocaine, but yes people love it.

It's that simple b/c when people stop the "addiction" no one forces them to stop-they stop of their OWN freewill and choice.  If you FORCE someone into drug rehab, inevitability they will be right back at it in no time. Now the process to get the person to realize that they are better off without the "addiction" maybe a long drawn out process, but as SOON as the individual realizes that they hate the sin and love God more, they will stop.

And you don't have to "fix" the thing that is causing the addiction-because for all the psychobabble about there is a deep rooted psychological cause, blah,blah, blah. It is actually very, very simple.  The addiction provides much pleasure, more pleasure than the pain of the guilt afterwards, as soon as the pain of the guilt and the consequences outwards the pleasure of the moment the "addiction" goes away.

The greatest lie ever told with "addictions" is the lie that an "addiction" means you can't stop when you want to.  Totally false, you exactly CAN stop anytime you want to-you just have to have the force of will to do so.

Edited June 1, 2018 by dellme

[John_Pack_Lambert]

To me, especially his secretive approach makes it sound very much like he is dealing with an addiction. I think the best thing for him is to get him into the Church's 12 step program.

[pwrfrk]

Hate the sin but love the sinner.