Marriage 101 FOR DUDES. From a totally unqualified man

[unixknight]

6 hours ago, Fether said:

I told my wife that I thought the tradition of asking the father's permission was absolutely ridiculous, and if the father said "no, you can't marry my daughter" I would say to his face, "Too bad" and walk out.

What does a father have to do with who their daughter marries? We have some close friends that love each other so much and the girl's father keeps saying that he can't marry the daughter. After over a year of pestering, they finally decided to ignore the dad and just get married.

Skip the dad bit haha

This... is not advice I'd give someone.

When you marry somebody, you aren't just marrying that person, you're marrying their whole family.  You don't have to like it, it's simply how it is.  Is it really wise to  begin that way? 

This is your future father-in-law we're talking about.  Not  just some custodian who happens to have been taking care of this woman up until now.  He's one half of the team that raised her, and until this moment was probably the most important  man in her life.  Does it really seem wise to disrespect him that way?  This man will be grandfather to your kids.  Think the family will appreciate the awkwardness at family get-togethers knowing her dad doesn't like you - and with good reason?

Besides, to disrespect her family is to disrespect her.  "Yeah baby, I know your dad loves you more than his own life and you love him too, but why should I bother showing him any respect?"

Pffft.

Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

...Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

Permission? I'm assuming your oldest daughter is an adult. I'm agreeing with @Fether regarding this tradition. The only person's answer that matters when a man proposes, is the woman's. A woman is not the property of her father (not like in the olden days), so it is very condescending to think that a father's permission is required for his adult daughter to marry. If you think some kind of tradition is necessary to show respect, I can see asking the woman's parents for their blessing, but that's as far as I would go. Men can show respect to their future parents-in-law without having to cater to condescending traditions.

M.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Permission? I'm assuming your oldest daughter is an adult. I'm agreeing with @Fether regarding this tradition. The only person's answer that matters when a man proposes, is the woman's. A woman is not the property of her father (not like in the olden days), so it is very condescending to think that a father's permission is required for his adult daughter to marry. If you think some kind of tradition is necessary to show respect, I can see asking the woman's parents for their blessing, but that's as far as I would go. Men can show respect to their future parents-in-law without having to cater to condescending traditions.

M.

I agree @Maureen. I spoke to my FIL before I asked @LadyGator to marry me but it was not asking for permission. It was basically telling him what I planned to do. 

[lostinwater]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

Just curious.  No argument intended.

If you had disapproved, would you have expected to have had veto power?  

And for the record, i'm glad it played out so well for your daughter, your son in law, and you.  You all sound like wonderful people!

[Guest MormonGator]

I didn't read the OP, but I'm always sort of nervous when someone gives marriage advice. I've been married for 15 glorious years and I would not give advice on how to keep a marriage or relationship going. The cliches you hear about in pop culture like "Never go to bed angry" might work for some people but in reality, a marriage involves two individuals. Two thinking, distinct people that can't be placed in a box. In my view every marriage is wonderfully different because each person is wonderfully different.   

[JayKi]

3 hours ago, unixknight said:

This... is not advice I'd give someone.

When you marry somebody, you aren't just marrying that person, you're marrying their whole family.  You don't have to like it, it's simply how it is.  Is it really wise to  begin that way? 

This is your future father-in-law we're talking about.  Not  just some custodian who happens to have been taking care of this woman up until now.  He's one half of the team that raised her, and until this moment was probably the most important  man in her life.  Does it really seem wise to disrespect him that way?  This man will be grandfather to your kids.  Think the family will appreciate the awkwardness at family get-togethers knowing her dad doesn't like you - and with good reason?

Besides, to disrespect her family is to disrespect her.  "Yeah baby, I know your dad loves you more than his own life and you love him too, but why should I bother showing him any respect?"

Pffft.

Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

I agree if I have daughter and the man who want to marry her did no ask me permission then he could no be accept to my family. 

[JayKi]

1 hour ago, lostinwater said:

If you had disapproved, would you have expected to have had veto power?  

My fiancee father had veto power, I knew I could no marry without his permission. But my opinion probably does no matter because of cultural differences. For example, 

1 hour ago, Maureen said:

A woman is not the property of her father (not like in the olden days), so it is very condescending to think that a father's permission is required for his adult daughter to marry.

Usually in Costa Rica a woman only move out of her parent house when she marry a man, so is taking the responsibility to protect her from her father. So is necessary for her father to decide if you have capability to take over protecting and caring for his daughter. 

[Overwatch]

I agree that asking a Father or Mother in my case, is appropriate before marrying your spouse. I am very much in favor of traditional gender roles while also incorporating changes based on familial circumstances. A daughter is not property of her Father but is a priceless being and it is very much appropriate to ask for her hand in marriage. Ask for the Father's blessing. If the Father says no then ask why. The Father may have a legitimate concern and if he doesn't then pray on what to do.

Taking her hand anyway can have grave consequence. Her family may become bitter and shun the couple for a long time. Even worse the Grandparents may turn the children against the parents. So many different scenarios. In close knit families it is very important to be respectful and politely work your way into the family circle. Gaining trust, confidence and Love will definitely go a long way.

[Fether]

4 hours ago, unixknight said:

This... is not advice I'd give someone.

When you marry somebody, you aren't just marrying that person, you're marrying their whole family.  You don't have to like it, it's simply how it is.  Is it really wise to  begin that way? 

This is your future father-in-law we're talking about.  Not  just some custodian who happens to have been taking care of this woman up until now.  He's one half of the team that raised her, and until this moment was probably the most important  man in her life.  Does it really seem wise to disrespect him that way?  This man will be grandfather to your kids.  Think the family will appreciate the awkwardness at family get-togethers knowing her dad doesn't like you - and with good reason?

Besides, to disrespect her family is to disrespect her.  "Yeah baby, I know your dad loves you more than his own life and you love him too, but why should I bother showing him any respect?"

Pffft.

Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

So if your wife’s father told you no, would you end the relationship???

[unixknight]

3 hours ago, Maureen said:

Permission? I'm assuming your oldest daughter is an adult. I'm agreeing with @Fether regarding this tradition. The only person's answer that matters when a man proposes, is the woman's. A woman is not the property of her father (not like in the olden days), so it is very condescending to think that a father's permission is required for his adult daughter to marry. If you think some kind of tradition is necessary to show respect, I can see asking the woman's parents for their blessing, but that's as far as I would go. Men can show respect to their future parents-in-law without having to cater to condescending traditions.

M.

Of course she's an adult.  As for the rest...

2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Just curious.  No argument intended.

If you had disapproved, would you have expected to have had veto power?  

And for the record, i'm glad it played out so well for your daughter, your son in law, and you.  You all sound like wonderful people!

Thanks for the kind words. 

Of course everybody involved knows that my permission is entirely symbolic, and not literally needed.  The act of asking for it anyway is a show of respect. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by unixknight

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

So if your wife’s father told you no, would you end the relationship???

Had it come to that then I'd say it would have been well worth my time to resolve whatever differences were in the way.  That's what respect is.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, unixknight said:

Had it come to that then I'd say it would have been well worth my time to resolve whatever differences were in the way.  That's what respect is.

I see. My issue with it all is this. It’s hard for me to show respect to a person that puts his word and authority above that of God and the prophets. If we are both living worthily and love each other, who is he to say we shouldn’t be together. This frustration mostly stems from my friends situation I mentioned earlier.

Had I found myself in a similar situation, I would likely have been respectful about it, but still gone forward with the marriage

[unixknight]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

I see. My issue with it all is this. It’s hard for me to show respect to a person that puts his word and authority above that of God and the prophets. If we are both living worthily and love each other, who is he to say we shouldn’t be together. This frustration mostly stems from my friends situation I mentioned earlier.

Had I found myself in a similar situation, I would likely have been respectful about it, but still gone forward with the marriage

I guess in a perfect world all those things wouldn't be in conflict.  As it stands, all we can do is make the best decisions we can.

[Maureen]

Respect goes both ways. If a couple is responsible enough to want to be married, the parents of both the man and woman should also show respect and realize that these young adults have every right to make their own decisions.

M.

[dddd]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

What does a father have to do with who their daughter married?

Skip the dad bit haha

You're literally the "RUDE" song. If you were my man I would have dropped you like you're as hot as you think you are

[lostinwater]

2 hours ago, JayKi said:

But my opinion probably does no matter because of cultural differences

Not at all.  i am continuously fascinated by your unique set of experiences - and appreciate you sharing them.  

Do you feel most women in Costa Rica find that system oppressive?  Is it participated in selectively, or is it largely dying out?  How common is it for a man/woman to ignore what the father says and just marry anyways?  

Sorry for all the questions.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, dddd said:

You're literally the "RUDE" song. If you were my man I would have dropped you like you're as hot as you think you are

Mmmm... that’s fair 

[JayKi]

3 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Not at all.  i am continuously fascinated by your unique set of experiences - and appreciate you sharing them.  

 Do you feel most women in Costa Rica find that system oppressive?  Is it participated in selectively, or is it largely dying out?  How common is it for a man/woman to ignore what the father says and just marry anyways?  

 Sorry for all the questions.

I don't think that is oppressive because most women are marry by the age of 21 so there is no much time to live without your parent anyway. Also, it depend on family financial status because women usually stay home with their parent to help look after house but may also work to help finances is common, it is same for men too they stay home longer to help finance the home of their parent and siblings. Lots of women end up living alone at some point if they divorce or their husband dies then they may move back with their parents or their parents move in with them. Is common anyway to have extended family live with you in Costa Rica. In general women are very independent but probably more then in America they have traditional female roll to be housekeeper and mother. Even when I growing up my sister and mother always serve my father and me food first and they clean up for us, but if something need fixing or moving then always me who do it. 

It can happen that the man or woman ignore the father wishes but family is so important and not just small family but all family that it will be a bad idea to ignore. Of course some people do ignore, I am head of my house and my older sister boyfriend ask me if he can marry my sister I told him no but they got engage anyway. Because this disrespect to me I would never welcome him in to my house again, in the end they did no get marry but if they did then it would be hard for my sister to be close with her family. 

I ask my fiancee father permission and he tell me no so I ask him every day for 6 weeks until he say yes. If man is no willing to earn woman he loves father's respect then he dont deserve to marry her. Actually, her father always thought I disrespectful for no asking his permission to date his daughter. I ask my mother too if she happy for me to marry my fiancee because it respectful. 

[Guest Godless]

13 hours ago, unixknight said:

This... is not advice I'd give someone.

When you marry somebody, you aren't just marrying that person, you're marrying their whole family.  You don't have to like it, it's simply how it is.  Is it really wise to  begin that way? 

This is your future father-in-law we're talking about.  Not  just some custodian who happens to have been taking care of this woman up until now.  He's one half of the team that raised her, and until this moment was probably the most important  man in her life.  Does it really seem wise to disrespect him that way?  This man will be grandfather to your kids.  Think the family will appreciate the awkwardness at family get-togethers knowing her dad doesn't like you - and with good reason?

Besides, to disrespect her family is to disrespect her.  "Yeah baby, I know your dad loves you more than his own life and you love him too, but why should I bother showing him any respect?"

Pffft.

Last year a very respectful young man called me to ask my permission to marry my oldest daughter.  He'd have asked me in person but they live in another state and he was unable to make the trip.  We talked for a while and he earned a ton of respect from me by showing me a  ton of respect.  I'm looking forward to calling him my son-in-law and he and my daughter have an ally in me. 

I agree that it's very important to establish a healthy, respectful relationship with your would-be in-laws, but I don't agree with the idea of permission. My wife was never her father's property any more than she is mine now. The only permission I needed was hers. I have a great relationship with my in-laws, in some ways more so than my own family. If that weren't the case, I still would have married her. I would have tried everything I could to earn her parents' respect, but I don't see that as a prerequisite for marriage. Some parents are very stubborn and thick-headed. Should that keep you from being with the person you love?

[unixknight]

22 minutes ago, Godless said:

I agree that it's very important to establish a healthy, respectful relationship with your would-be in-laws, but I don't agree with the idea of permission. My wife was never her father's property any more than she is mine now. The only permission I needed was hers. I have a great relationship with my in-laws, in some ways more so than my own family. If that weren't the case, I still would have married her. I would have tried everything I could to earn her parents' respect, but I don't see that as a prerequisite for marriage. Some parents are very stubborn and thick-headed. Should that keep you from being with the person you love?

As I said above, the permission is symbolic, not actual.  My daughter is 18.  I  have -zero- power to stop her from doing anything.

That being said, the "love justifies all" argument doesn't fly.  As I also said above, you're not just marrying the individual, you're marrying the family.  If her family has a problem with you then you owe it to her and to them to resolve it before going into " ah well screw them we're in love!" mode.  Keep in mind you're the one inserting himself into her family.  If my future son-in-law had come to me with a "well I don't care what you think I love her!" attitude then that would have absolutely poisoned my relationship with him, possibly forever.  It also would have put my daughter in a terrible position emotionally.

When a person, male or female, is torn between their spouse and their parents that is not a happy place to be in life.  Putting a future wife in that position is not a very good way to show love for her, and it certainly lends credibility to the parents' doubts about your character.

 

[JayKi]

44 minutes ago, Godless said:

I agree that it's very important to establish a healthy, respectful relationship with your would-be in-laws, but I don't agree with the idea of permission. My wife was never her father's property any more than she is mine now. The only permission I needed was hers. I have a great relationship with my in-laws, in some ways more so than my own family. If that weren't the case, I still would have married her. I would have tried everything I could to earn her parents' respect, but I don't see that as a prerequisite for marriage. Some parents are very stubborn and thick-headed. Should that keep you from being with the person you love?

Is no about permission in modern sense (for me is still sort of permission I ask for) I asked for his blessing and until he grant it I wouldn't ask his daughter to marry me because is was important to me to show respect to my girlfriend family so when we are married we all get along. Is no about property either because even her dad said I can marry her I still needed to get my girlfriend permission.  

Edited June 8, 2018 by JayKi

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, unixknight said:

...As I also said above, you're not just marrying the individual, you're marrying the family...

I agree with this idea but it works both ways. Your daughter will be marrying not just her future husband but also his family. But you don't expect her to ask her future mother-in-law for permission (symbolic or actual) to marry her son. This idea that a man is not showing respect if he doesn't ask for his future father-in-law's permission (whether symbolic or actual) is ridiculous. I can understand wanting both families to give their blessings for the marriage, but this one sided tradition of permission is just demeaning in my opinion.

M.

[unixknight]

10 minutes ago, Maureen said:

I agree with this idea but it works both ways. Your daughter will be marrying not just her future husband but also his family. But you don't expect her to ask her future mother-in-law for permission (symbolic or actual) to marry her son. This idea that a man is not showing respect if he doesn't ask for his future father-in-law's permission (whether symbolic or actual) is ridiculous. I can understand wanting both families to give their blessings for the marriage, but this one sided tradition of permission is just demeaning in my opinion.

M.

You're perfectly entitled to your view on this, but don't call someone else's view "ridiculous" just because you don't share it.  That "ridiculous" view went a long way toward helping my future son-in-law to bond with me and my sons (whom he also contacted).  And before you ask, yes he asked her mother too.

Traditions exist for a reason.  Be dismissive of them if you want, but doing so doesn't strengthen your argument.

Edited June 8, 2018 by unixknight

[Midwest LDS]

I don't have a problem with this tradition, as I think it shows respect to the family you are marrying into. I don't think many people truly think that the parent's permission is neccessary anymore (if it was I got totally screwed on my wife's dowry, where's my slice of Poland😃?) But, like it or not, you are joining your wife's family for life. Why not take a little time to help start things off on the right foot? 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said:

I don't have a problem with this tradition, as I think it shows respect to the family you are marrying into. I don't think many people truly think that the parent's permission is neccessary anymore (if it was I got totally screwed on my wife's dowry, where's my slice of Poland😃?) But, like it or not, you are joining your wife's family for life. Why not take a little time to help start things off on the right foot? 

 My FIL told me that my wifes dowry was "two tickets to a minor league hockey game and a beer." We still laugh at that.