Guest MormonGator Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Fether said: Nor should they be. But they should be concerned about the desires of God, and though it won’t bar you from any ordinances, I’m sure if you were to ask an ordained apostle or prophet of God, they would council against it Right, I'd counsel against it as well for that reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, Fether said: I do share you distaste for tattoos and am similarity dumbfounded for when I see people still getting tattoos after the prophets of God have been pretty clear on their stance that it is highly discouraged. I do, however, disagree with your judgement towards those with tattoos. First of all I don’t know that God would call a man who is actively doing something that is strongly discouraged by the brethren to be a temple officiator. But if I am wrong and I see a man officiating in the temple who is all “tatted up” and even know that he is continuing to add tattoos, I will sustain that man as an officiator with no further question. If God has need to increase the importance of not having tattoos and make it part of the temple reccomend process (which to some extent it already is per questions 4,7 and 8), He will do it through the appointed paths, not by a concerned member of the church. God seems to let the brethren manage the Church to an extent, without interfering. If something is crazy (like the example of coffee and tattoos) the members should raise their voices. Never again should a bad call be left long in the church without the members really asking why ex: blacks being without the priesthood and temple blessings for SO LONG. Just my take Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 39 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Those with tattoos aren't overly concerned with others opinions about them. Speaking for myself of course, but I'm pretty confident that's what other tattooed people would say. That is good to know that they don't care if they make some members uncomfortable. Then they shouldn't care if I walk out or pick my children up from primary if their teachers have visible tattoos. Not what I want for my babies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 51 minutes ago, Overwatch said: That is good to know that they don't care if they make some members uncomfortable. Then they shouldn't care if I walk out or pick my children up from primary if their teachers have visible tattoos. Not what I want for my babies. That's good, because I'm uncomfortable around people without tattoos, so we would both be solving a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 52 minutes ago, Overwatch said: That is good to know that they don't care if they make some members uncomfortable. People who say this are lying. If people didn't care what other people think of them, they wouldn't be Christians. Love others (ministering) as yourself requires us to care about what others think. Being agents of Christ require us to care about what others think. Reverence is about caring what others think. Applying for a job requires us to care about what others think. "I don't care what others think" cannot survive in marriage. Or the survival of the species. Barrett Maximus and Overwatch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Overwatch said: That is good to know that they don't care if they make some members uncomfortable. Then they shouldn't care if I walk out or pick my children up from primary if their teachers have visible tattoos. Not what I want for my babies. That seems a little harsh. There are a lot of reasons people may have a tattoo. What if they are a new convert, and you decide to shun them? Also, why would you ostrasize someone over a picture on their skin? Especially if they are at church and attempting to fulfil their calling. That's head and shoulders above half the members on the rolls. Teach your kids not to get tattoos, I'm going to teach my daughter that she shouldn't get one, but also teach them to be loving to their brothers and sisters at church, that's far more important. Edited June 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, MormonGator said: That's good, because I'm uncomfortable around people without tattoos, so we would both be solving a problem. I am starting to see that we have some different types of Mormons that use the internet. Never in my life would I have imagined a temple recommend holder advocating actively adding tattoos to their bodies. I am very saddened by this BUT there is still a lot of good, however if the fruit becomes bad or the salt loses its savor I fear that this scripture may be put into action: 14 And the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance. 15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people— 16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadethdown and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. 17 Thy hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/20.16 We set the example to the world. We live and repent daily of our sins NOT ADD TO THEM. If the saints lose their peculiarity then I am afraid they are just like the gentiles. Whoever this remnant of Jacob be, if the gentiles do not repent they will destroy them. We need to be different... not the same. Edited June 21, 2018 by Overwatch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said: That seems a little harsh. There are a lot of reasons people may have a tatoo. What if they ate a new convert, and you decide to shin them? Also, why would you ostrasize someone over a picture on their skin? Especially if they are at church and attempting to fulfil their calling. That's head and shoulders above half the members on the rolls. Teach your kids not to get tatoos, I'm going to teach my daughter that she shouldn't, but also teach them to be loving to their brothers and sisters at church, that's far more important. If the person got the tattoo in the past then of course they should be given love. I'd even offer, once getting to know them, to pay for their removal. But a member that is actively adding to their tapestry of disrespect to their bodies? They have no sympathy from me and are not welcome around my children. If a non member is doing so THEY are more welcome around my children with tattoos than a Mormon purposely being rebellious . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Overwatch said: If the person got the tattoo in the past then of course they should be given love. I'd even offer, once getting to know them, to pay for their removal. But a member that is actively adding to their tapestry of disrespect to their bodies? They have no sympathy from me and are not welcome around my children. If a non member is doing so THEY are more welcome around my children with tattoos than a Mormon purposely being rebellious . Yeah but all of us fall short of the glory of God. They may be weak in areas where you are strong and vice versa. Far better to extend love and mercy to our brothers and sisters, especially ones who are trying, then to arbitrarily decide tattoos are so bad you should shun those who are trying to follow Christ by coming to church. Would you also advocate shunning those who are struggling with the WOW? Pornography? Keeping the Sabbath holy? Pretty soon you wouldn't have anyone to talk to at church. Christ broke bread with publicans and sinners after all, and He is far better than all of us. Why not follow His example? Edited June 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS Sunday21 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Midwest LDS said: Yeah but all of us fall short pf the glory of God. Theu may be weak in areas where you are strong and vice versa. Far better to extend love and mercy to our brothers and sisters, especially ones who are trying, then to arbitrarily decide tattoos are so bad you shpuld shun those who are trying to follow Christ by coming to church. Wpuld you alsp advocate shunning those who are struggling with the WOW? Pornography? Keeping the Sabbath holy? Pretty soon you wouldn't have anyone to talk to at church. Christ broke bread with the Samaritan woman after all. Are you allowed to hold a temple recommend while actively committing those sins? If a brother or sister OR myself made coffee in the church I would expect to be stopped. If someone came drunk to church and went to teach primary, they would be stopped. If a brother OR sister showed my child pornography at church (or wherever) I would have them arrested and press charges. We ALL have to hold ourselves to a high standard. As saints it is our duty. I have no idea where this care bear attitude came from. Even the Lord after healing has said 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/5.14 Church was never popular, it wasn't ever hip to be Mormon ( at least not where I was from) You had to work hard to be different. To be a light. If people ever became weak it was their duty to go to their aid. It was each member's duty to change and be faithful enough to repent and return to the work. All of us falling short of the Glory of God is not an excuse to keep adding to our sins. It really isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Are you allowed to hold a temple recommend while actively committing those sins? If a brother or sister OR myself made coffee in the church I would expect to be stopped. If someone came drunk to church and went to teach primary, they would be stopped. If a brother OR sister showed my child pornography at church (or wherever) I would have them arrested and press charges. We ALL have to hold ourselves to a high standard. As saints it is our duty. I have no idea where this care bear attitude came from. Even the Lord after healing has said 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/5.14 Church was never popular, it wasn't ever hip to be Mormon ( at least not where I was from) You had to work hard to be different. To be a light. If people ever became weak it was their duty to go to their aid. It was each member's duty to change and be faithful enough to repent and return to the work. All of us falling short of the Glory of God is not an excuse to keep adding to our sins. It really isn't. I’m sorry but you are the last person to advocate for the church. Things you have said: “By all means, do everything every man tells you to. I obey canon scripture, consider the prophets suggestions and then govern myself as I pray to the Lord for guidance.” “God seems to let the brethren manage the Church to an extent, without interfering. If something is crazy (like the example of coffee and tattoos) the members should raise their voices. Never again should a bad call be left long in the church without the members really asking why ex: blacks being without the priesthood and temple blessings for SO LONG.” your views do not match those that run the church. Barrett Maximus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 Just now, Fether said: I’m sorry but you are the last person to advocate for the church. Things you have said: “By all means, do everything every man tells you to. I obey canon scripture, consider the prophets suggestions and then govern myself as I pray to the Lord for guidance.” “God seems to let the brethren manage the Church to an extent, without interfering. If something is crazy (like the example of coffee and tattoos) the members should raise their voices. Never again should a bad call be left long in the church without the members really asking why ex: blacks being without the priesthood and temple blessings for SO LONG.” your views do not match those that run the church. Does it burn you that I am displeased by the brethren taking so long to give the blacks equal rights? Does it displease you that I do not advocate early age marriage? What else do you got? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Are you allowed to hold a temple recommend while actively committing those sins? If a brother or sister OR myself made coffee in the church I would expect to be stopped. If someone came drunk to church and went to teach primary, they would be stopped. If a brother OR sister showed my child pornography at church (or wherever) I would have them arrested and press charges. We ALL have to hold ourselves to a high standard. As saints it is our duty. I have no idea where this care bear attitude came from. Even the Lord after healing has said 14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/5.14 Church was never popular, it wasn't ever hip to be Mormon ( at least not where I was from) You had to work hard to be different. To be a light. If people ever became weak it was their duty to go to their aid. It was each member's duty to change and be faithful enough to repent and return to the work. All of us falling short of the Glory of God is not an excuse to keep adding to our sins. It really isn't. Sorry brother, but you are wrong if you think I am advocating sin in the church. It is not a "care bear" attitude to try to lift each other up rather than beating each other down. Otherwise you would have to look down on our Savior when he sought out Zacheus. Rather than delivering a thunderous condemnation of the man, he merely told him he was going to dine with him. He showed him love and kindness and, on his own initiative, Zacheus chose to repent of his sins. We absolutely must teach correct principles in church, but it is absolutely not our place to go up to someone trying to follow Christ by coming to church and fulfilling their callings and rip them down. It's that kind of attitude that rips up the wheat with the tares and convinces people to never come back again. I wasn't asking you about showing kids porn in church, that's a straw man argument. I was saying that a tattoo is merely a visible struggle, like smelling smoke on someone coming in the door. All of us are guilty of sin. Every single one. If we start picking people out to shun at church then we become as the Pharisee, who gave a self serving prayer thanking God that he was not a sinner and talking about how great he was. Remember what Christ said next? He said the Publican, who could only pray for forgiveness was justified rather than the Pharisee. It is far better to strive to correct the beam in our own eye, before we try to fix every mote in our brother's eye. Edited June 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said: Sorry brother , but you are wrong if you think I am advocating sin in the church. It is not a "care bear" attitude to try to lift each other up rather than beating each other down. Otherwise you would have to look down on our Savior when he sought out Zacheus. Rather than delivering a thunderous condemnation of the man, he merely told him he was going to dine with him. He showed him love and kindness and, on his own initiative, Zacheus chose to repent of his sins. We absolutely must teach correct principles in church, but it is absolutely not our place to go up to someone trying to follow Christ by coming to church and fulfilling their callings and rip them down. It's that kind of artitude that rips up the wheat with the tares and convinces people to never come back again. Brother I also believe that the wheat may leave because they mistake the wheat as tares because no one wants to hurt their feelings and let them know we ALL have to get better at keeping the commandments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 You can still do lots of things at church while not holding a temple recommend: Primary President, Relief Society President, Sunday School President. Even those who are not exemplary members of the church can at times participate in saving ordinances i.e. baptism at the Bishops discretion. Lots of people who commit sins hold callings in church. Yes, if you are drunk at church you would probably not be allowed to teach. Yep, no coffee at church. What's your point with all of this? 2 hours ago, Overwatch said: God seems to let the brethren manage the Church to an extent, without interfering. If something is crazy (like the example of coffee and tattoos) the members should raise their voices. Never again should a bad call be left long in the church without the members really asking why ex: blacks being without the priesthood and temple blessings for SO LONG Out of bounds with this comment. Do some research. 7 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Does it burn you that I am displeased by the brethren taking so long to give the blacks equal rights? Does it displease you that I do not advocate early age marriage? You can be displeased by the brethren. I don't care, but don't take a change in policy for God's inattentiveness. Pretty sure there is no advocacy for early age marriage. We are counseled to not delay. Different........ Backroads 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Brother I also believe that the wheat may leave because they mistake the wheat as tares because no one wants to hurt their feelings and let them know we ALL have to get better at keeping the commandments. Yes which is why we should teach correct principles at church. There we are in agreement. Bishops and other priesthood leaders may also need to be more proactive in seeking out those who struggle to give them firm guidance. But if somone is trying to be a good saint; they show up to church, they try to do their calling, they try to minster to their fellow man, then it is our duty and privilege to encourage and love them as they make right decisions until they choose to repent of their own shortcomings, just as we hope others will love and support us as we strive to come nearer to Christ, not cut them off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, mdfxdb said: Out of bounds with this comment. Do some research. Considering people were teaching fence sitting doctrine at one point I am not "out of bounds" 3 minutes ago, mdfxdb said: You can still do lots of things at church while not holding a temple recommend: and? Someone specifically mentioned holding a temple recommend while actively adding new tattoos 4 minutes ago, mdfxdb said: I don't care, but don't take a change in policy for God's inattentiveness. God sees everything 4 minutes ago, mdfxdb said: Pretty sure there is no advocacy for early age marriage. We are counseled to not delay. Different........ Go read the proclamation to the family and think about being ready not only financially but mentally 5 minutes ago, mdfxdb said: Yes, if you are drunk at church you would probably not be allowed to teach. Yep, no coffee at church. What's your point with all of this? If actively sinning maybe there needs to change of stewardship ex: Primary Teacher actively working on a tattoo that the children can see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Midwest LDS said: Yes which is why we should teach correct principles at church. There we are in agreement. Bishops and other priesthood leaders may also need to be more proactive in seeking out those who struggle to give them firm guidance. But if somone is trying to be a good saint; they show up to church, they try to do their calling, they try to minster to their fellow man, then it is our duty and privilege to encourage and love them as they make right decisions until they choose to repent of their own shortcomings, just as we hope others will love and support us as we strive to come nearer to Christ, not cut them off. I really like a lot of what you have to say but I am sorry if "Sister Johnson" (just example) is my girls' primary teacher and she is actively working on and adding to a tattoo "sleeve" I am going to have to move my children somewhere else. It is VERY hard for me to be supportive. :C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdfxdb Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) Fence sitting doctrine? Fine, if you don't want to be out of bounds with your comment, I will modify to wrong. Yeah, you can do lots of stuff without holding a temple recommend, as if holding a temple recommend was some sort of barometer of righteousness????? Last I checked Tattoo's are not one of the temple recommend questions.....do you know different? Yup God sees everything, and man will have to answer for sins which have not been resolved in this life. What does this have to do with Blacks and the priesthood? We are a Theocracy, that means whatever the Lord says is correct. The "voice" of the membership is irrelevant if you are a true believer. I read The Family: A Proclamation to the World, not sure where you are getting this advocacy stuff from. Maybe you can quote the Proclamation and prove me and the Prophets wrong? Everyone is actively sinning. Some you can see, some you can't. Your point? Edited June 21, 2018 by mdfxdb Fether 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Does it burn you that I am displeased by the brethren taking so long to give the blacks equal rights? Does it displease you that I do not advocate early age marriage? What else do you got? It displeases me that that you feel you could run the church better than God. Because even though the prophets and apostles are men, they still speak on behalf of God. This is not a society of men doing our best with what we have, this is the gospel of Jesus Christ in it’s purest. The things that happen via decision of the prophets and apostles are meant to be. The blacks were not meant to have the priesthood until the prophet received revelation for it. The guidance they give us is to be followed to the spirit and to the letter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Overwatch said: I am starting to see that we have some different types of Mormons that use the internet. Never in my life would I have imagined a temple recommend holder advocating actively adding tattoos to their bodies. I am very saddened by this BUT there is still a lot of good, however if the fruit becomes bad or the salt loses its savor I fear that this scripture may be put into action: Good! I'm glad you are stepping outside your box and seeing that there are different types of LDS. Very proud of you, and I mean that seriously. So many people stay in their own little world their entire life. 1) I actually told the OP not to get one, so I wasn't advocating anything. 2) I haven't had a temple recommend in a few years, but when I did, I still got tattoos. I was even endowed/sealed to my lovely wife and I baptized two people. Aren't I amazing? I did all of that while planning my next tattoo. 3) I'm sorry you are saddened by it. Cheer up! Edited June 21, 2018 by MormonGator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest LDS Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Overwatch said: I really like a lot of what you have to say but I am sorry if "Sister Johnson" (just example) is my girls' primary teacher and she is actively working on and adding to a tattoo "sleeve" I am going to have to move my children somewhere else. It is VERY hard for me to be supportive. :C We aren't impossibly far apart. I too agree that we need too strongly teach the doctrine of Christ. I just think we need to give people space to fall short and be able to get back up again, especially the ones who are trying by coming to church. I was in a branch presidency, and I remember being overjoyed when I saw long missing faces in the pews. I would rather see someone with tattoos in church fulfilling their callings than somone who doesn't but stays home. At the end of the day, both are imperfect, but one of those people is striving to come to Christ and one isn't. Far better to show kindness and love to all then shun someone out of the church. Edited June 21, 2018 by Midwest LDS Overwatch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Overwatch said: Considering people were teaching fence sitting doctrine at one point I am not "out of bounds" Fence sitting doctrines!? You believe prophets don’t really speak for God but just give suggestions. You would kick those with tattoos from the temple when the prophet of God wouldn’t. You would have an alcoholic kicked out of church because he makes you uncomfortable. you sound that the Pharisees from the New Testament. I wouldn’t be surprised to have you advocating for the stoning if adulterers. Edited June 21, 2018 by Fether Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted June 21, 2018 Report Share Posted June 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fether said: Fence sitting doctrines!? You believe prophets don’t really speak for God but just give suggestions. You would kick those with tattoos from the temple when the prophet of God wouldn’t. You would have an alcoholic kicked out of church. you sound that the Pharisees from the New Testament. I wouldn’t be surprised to have you advocating for the stoning if adulterers. I was very comforted in the temple when I saw someone in there with a full sleeve of tattoos-that made me feel immediately at peace. We all have our ticks and our pet issues. I'm sure @Overwatch is a great guy, regardless of my disagreement with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted June 22, 2018 Report Share Posted June 22, 2018 back. Was spending time with Pale Queen. Now let me see... bwahaha okay. let's respond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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