Highlander

Laws vs Commandments

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Someone asked me what's the difference between Laws and commandments. He refrenced the temple movie.

"Adam says I will obey thy law and keep thy commandments. Im assuming there's a difference. "

What are your thoughts?

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I recommend going back to the temple for an endowment session and listening very carefully to see what laws are mentioned (named as "law"), and when "commandment(s)" is mentioned.  I think this may answer the question to a large extent.  (I'm making this recommendation to myself as well.)

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9 hours ago, Highlander said:

Someone asked me what's the difference between Laws and commandments. He refrenced the temple movie.

"Adam says I will obey thy law and keep thy commandments. Im assuming there's a difference. "

What are your thoughts?

I think the answer is similar to the difference between sinning and transgressing the law.

Laws are natural rows that exist on their own and have natural consequences that follow after.

ie

 If I murder someone, I naturally die spiritually

 

transfressions are rules established by God that are not inheritly  evil, but still carry weight and come with consequences prescribed by God

If you eat this fruit I will remove you from that garden

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16 hours ago, Highlander said:

Someone asked me what's the difference between Laws and commandments. He refrenced the temple movie.

"Adam says I will obey thy law and keep thy commandments. Im assuming there's a difference. "

What are your thoughts?

Generally God's laws and God's commandments are the same thing (just as obeying and keeping are the same thing; it seems Adam is saying the same thing in two different ways for emphasis): https://www.mormon.org/beliefs/gods-commandments#section1 :

COMMANDMENTS ARE LAWS

More than mere suggestions for living, commandments are laws given by God. Just as there are penalties for not obeying municipal laws, there are also consequences for not following God’s commandments. 

See also: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/law?lang=eng&letter=l

In addition, my understanding is that all commandments are based in law, and all laws are realized through commandments. From D&C 88:38-39, 60 "“And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified. …Every man in his own order …even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.”

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On 6/24/2018 at 11:18 AM, Fether said:

Laws are natural rows that exist on their own and have natural consequences that follow after.

transfressions are rules established by God that are not inheritly  evil, but still carry weight and come with consequences prescribed by God

Alma chapter 42 has much to say about the Fall (Adam, sin, punishment, and breaking God's law).

Jim

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I believe laws are independent of G-d and are the principles and order necessary for G-d to complete his works.  It also seems to me that the laws are somewhat vague and will remain so for us in mortality until we gain further knowledge of such principles and the works of G-d.

Covenants are given by G-d that we may have understanding and guidelines as to what we must do to conform to the laws which G-d utilizes for his works.

In short the law is that which unites and enables all that G-d does.  Commandments are what we are given to bring us into conformity with the laws by which all things are governed. 

 

The Traveler

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As I understand things, within the gospel all laws are commandments and all commandments are laws. So, if there is any difference between the two, it is relatively slight and semantic, in which the word "law" tends to speak to the structure of the thing (i.e. conditions and consequences) and where the term "commandment" tends to speak to the way by which the law was conveyed (i.e. by way of command).

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

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9 hours ago, wenglund said:

As I understand things, within the gospel all laws are commandments and all commandments are laws. So, if there is any difference between the two, it is relatively slight and semantic, in which the word "law" tends to speak to the structure of the thing (i.e. conditions and consequences) and where the term "commandment" tends to speak to the way by which the law was conveyed (i.e. by way of command).

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

In addition, my understanding is that all commandments are based in law, and all laws are realized through commandments. From D&C 88:38-39, 60 "“And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified. …Every man in his own order …even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified.”

This is how the commandments given in Eden are lived in different kingdoms. For example, Adam and Eve did not abide the Edenic command to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge ( law for Eden), but in this world (kingdom) and the next there is an expectation that we do partake of it (D&C 130:19). Neither did they abide the law to be fruitful and multiply, or to subdue the earth and have dominion over it. But once they partook of the forbidden fruit, they began to obey these commands in this kingdom (world) and now the next. Interestingly to me is that the only Edenic law they fully kept was to till and keep the garden, which prepared them for the rest that occurred.

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On 6/29/2018 at 5:54 PM, theplains said:

Alma chapter 42 has much to say about the Fall (Adam, sin, punishment, and breaking God's law).

Jim

Satan introduced evil into the world by instigating and beguiling Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, thus creating the world out of Eden. He was evil with evil intent; Adam and Eve were not. But as a result of their physical and spiritual separation from God, they and their offspring could now be tempted to commit sin, and once sin was committed, that is the evil referred to.

Adam and Eve (and obviously their posterity, which wasn' yet born) were not tempted to commit sin in Eden. They were tempted to use their agency to partake of the forbidden fruit, which is not an inherently evil act since it is inherently godlike to desire and obtain knowledge of good and evil (moral agency). Adam and Eve only had agency, the power to choose, but not between right and wrong, which had not yet been established, but between opposing principles, a tree of life and a tree of knowledge (see Alma 29:5: “Yea, and I know that good and evil have come before all men; he that knoweth not good from evil is blameless”; and 2 Nephi 2:22-23: “22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.”).

It is not wise to follow or honor Satan, and this is not what Eve and Adam did in being beguiled by Satan. See Moses 5:9-12: “And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will. And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.” They were clearly honoring God and rejoicing in their redemption and His justice and mercy toward their having been beguiled to transgress, not Satan.

They transgressed, not sinned. Nowhere in the Bible are Adam and Eve referred to as sinners, only as transgressors. There is a difference. See:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/10/sins-and-mistakes?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1993/10/the-great-plan-of-happiness?lang=eng

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2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Satan introduced evil into the world by instigating and beguiling Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, .....

 

I will add a thought.  It is the purpose of Satan to copy G-d and to do so by assuming the role of the Messiah or Christ.  Satan has some interesting excuses for what he did in Eden – for example claiming that he is only doing what has been done before in other worlds.  In essence introducing the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It is my understanding that it is the intent of G-d that man comes to a knowledge of good and evil and I am of an opinion that there are “things” left out of the narrative of the Eden Epoch.   Since Satan intended to be the Messiah from the beginning – I speculate that Satan, without authorization, assumed the role of Messiah (like king Saul offering sacrifice) and thus became evil thinking to do good on his own and for his own purpose.  However, I believe Satan also did something in the process of offering the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that was contrary to the plan of G-d that is somewhat lost in the epoch story.  But that is a separate discussion. 

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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37 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I will add a thought.  It is the purpose of Satan to copy G-d and to do so by assuming the role of the Messiah or Christ.  Satan has some interesting excuses for what he did in Eden – for example claiming that he is only doing what has been done before in other worlds.  In essence introducing the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

It is my understanding that it is the intent of G-d that man comes to a knowledge of good and evil and I am of an opinion that there are “things” left out of the narrative of the Eden Epoch.   Since Satan intended to be the Messiah from the beginning – I speculate that Satan, without authorization, assumed the role of Messiah (like king Saul offering sacrifice) and thus became evil thinking to do good on his own and for his own purpose.  However, I believe Satan also did something in the process of offering the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that was contrary to the plan of G-d that is somewhat lost in the epoch story.  But that is a separate discussion. 

 

The Traveler

That both trees were accessible in Eden indicates that both are provided by God, and blessings of God, to be granted to us in due time by Him. It is interesting to me that for us, the tree of life is completely inaccessible fruit for this world (Alma 12:21) until such time the Lord gives it to us. So yes, I think it is possible that at some point God could have granted them permission to partake of the erstwhile forbidden fruit (or permission to abstain from the tree of life*). While the devil generates the evil choices in this world, I think any spirit that is less intelligent that God (Abraham 3:18-19), once separated from Him, can generate sufficient evil to create the need for a Savior.

* 2 Nephi 2:15 allows that the tree of life bore bitter-tasting fruit (at least not as tasty, pleasant to the eyes and desired), so it may have been as appealing to abstain from it as it was to desire the fruit of the tree of knowledge (Genesis 3:6).

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5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

It is interesting to me that for us, the tree of life is completely inaccessible fruit for this world (Alma 12:21) until such time the Lord gives it to us.

Nephi made it clear that the tree his father saw was the tree of life, and that its fruit was the most precious of God's gifts -- that is, eternal life. And eternal life is indeed inherited in the hereafter. But the fruits of eternal life are available to us today, right now. So I disagree with your idea that "the tree of life is completely inaccessible fruit for this world". I think it is indeed accessible to a much larger degree than we generally acknowledge or are aware of.

Admittedly, I'm poking my head into the middle of this conversation without understanding the entire context of what's been said, so take my comment for what it's worth in this thread.

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35 minutes ago, Vort said:

Nephi made it clear that the tree his father saw was the tree of life, and that its fruit was the most precious of God's gifts -- that is, eternal life. And eternal life is indeed inherited in the hereafter. But the fruits of eternal life are available to us today, right now. So I disagree with your idea that "the tree of life is completely inaccessible fruit for this world". I think it is indeed accessible to a much larger degree than we generally acknowledge or are aware of.

Admittedly, I'm poking my head into the middle of this conversation without understanding the entire context of what's been said, so take my comment for what it's worth in this thread.

 

I believe you addition is important.  Nephi indicated that the Tree of Life is symbolic and not actual fruit - even thought Nephi was likely knowledgeable of a tree in Aribia that meats the description.  If the Tree of Life is symbolic - we can conclude that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is also.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Vort said:

Nephi made it clear that the tree his father saw was the tree of life, and that its fruit was the most precious of God's gifts -- that is, eternal life. And eternal life is indeed inherited in the hereafter. But the fruits of eternal life are available to us today, right now. So I disagree with your idea that "the tree of life is completely inaccessible fruit for this world". I think it is indeed accessible to a much larger degree than we generally acknowledge or are aware of.

Admittedly, I'm poking my head into the middle of this conversation without understanding the entire context of what's been said, so take my comment for what it's worth in this thread.

I'm referring to the reasons the cherubim and flaming sword were placed before the tree of life (Alma 12:21 & 23: 42:3 & 5; Moses 4:28 & 30). The Lord did not want Adam to realize living forever until he received the fulness of the Gospel and the realization of that fulness. I don't see or know of any mortals living forever separated from God -- that's a contradiction in terms! :) and that is what i am referring to.

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Matthew 19:16-24 Christ is talking with a man who asks Christ how to receive eternal life. Christ tells him he must keep the commandments, and begins to list them. The man says he has done all these things. Christ continues by saying, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me," (21). The man is not able to do this. This story explains the eternal LAW of Consecration. The Law of Consecration is an eternal law that Christ gave unto the people. It is not enough to follow His Commandments. If we want to be “perfect,” we must give unto others what we have in everything. Laws are something we must follow to obtain treasures in Heaven. 

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I think commandments are more like... an invitation to behave/ feel/ do in a certain way. Many Christians follow the 10 commandments for example, and they based their lives on them. and many of us do too, and of course, might have some other commandments that we try to live by and keep.

Laws, temple laws, are more strict. We learned of those laws very clearly in the temple, and they are accompanied by promises (and punishments) if we don't keep those laws that we have freely gotten into.  Laws are from this fallen world, even Heavenly Father has

Commandments are like ... earthly invitations to be good, but temple laws... "He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory"

 

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On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 1:38 PM, CV75 said:

I'm referring to the reasons the cherubim and flaming sword were placed before the tree of life (Alma 12:21 & 23: 42:3 & 5; Moses 4:28 & 30). The Lord did not want Adam to realize living forever until he received the fulness of the Gospel and the realization of that fulness. I don't see or know of any mortals living forever separated from God -- that's a contradiction in terms! :) and that is what i am referring to.

 

I would enforce the concept of symbolism in the Eden epoch.   As an example there is not one reference to Satan in Eden.  The reference is actually to a serpent.   Anciently a serpent had profound symbolic meaning.  If one studies ancient religious symbols (especially in ancient Egypt) serpents are divine Messianic types that assist mankind.  We also see the symbol of a serpent utilized in saving the children of Israel from venomous snakes with deadly intent.   The symbolism here of two kinds of Messianic types is most interesting – one being evil and bringing death the other being good and giving life to those that would accept the “good” serpent.

Anciently the fruit of a tree had great symbolic reference as well.  For example there are references in the New Testament to trees being “judged” by the fruit they produce – a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, likewise a corrupt or bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Most of us are familiar with the term “Cherubim”.  I submit that this is also something referenced symbolically.  First off the term Cherub did not exist at the time of Genesis – it is a Greek word.  Generally we interpret this term as meaning some high level of angel but I would point out a Cherub in ancient Greek methodology was not an angel but a type of g-d.  If we believe the Eden epoch to have religious significance – my question is when or where in scripture has any human ever encountered a Cherub with a sword while trying to obtain heavenly life with G-d?

 

The Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I would enforce the concept of symbolism in the Eden epoch.   As an example there is not one reference to Satan in Eden.  The reference is actually to a serpent.   Anciently a serpent had profound symbolic meaning.  If one studies ancient religious symbols (especially in ancient Egypt) serpents are divine Messianic types that assist mankind.  We also see the symbol of a serpent utilized in saving the children of Israel from venomous snakes with deadly intent.   The symbolism here of two kinds of Messianic types is most interesting – one being evil and bringing death the other being good and giving life to those that would accept the “good” serpent.

Anciently the fruit of a tree had great symbolic reference as well.  For example there are references in the New Testament to trees being “judged” by the fruit they produce – a good tree cannot produce bad fruit, likewise a corrupt or bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Most of us are familiar with the term “Cherubim”.  I submit that this is also something referenced symbolically.  First off the term Cherub did not exist at the time of Genesis – it is a Greek word.  Generally we interpret this term as meaning some high level of angel but I would point out a Cherub in ancient Greek methodology was not an angel but a type of g-d.  If we believe the Eden epoch to have religious significance – my question is when or where in scripture has any human ever encountered a Cherub with a sword while trying to obtain heavenly life with G-d?

 

The Traveler

Yes, many things to ponder! Offhand I cannot think of anything that answers your last question, but I think the Tower of Babel account comes close (I'm assuming you are referring to those who would bypass God's prescribed order for exaltation).

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14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, many things to ponder! Offhand I cannot think of anything that answers your last question, but I think the Tower of Babel account comes close (I'm assuming you are referring to those who would bypass God's prescribed order for exaltation).

 

Actually I believe that there are references in scripture to the Cherub and the flaming sword as we make our “way” on the path to the Tree of Life but because very few understand the symbolism; they expect something quite different and so they do not recognize the Cherubim when they encounter one or the path or way when the follow it.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

Actually I believe that there are references in scripture to the Cherub and the flaming sword as we make our “way” on the path to the Tree of Life but because very few understand the symbolism; they expect something quite different and so they do not recognize the Cherubim when they encounter one or the path or way when the follow it.

 

The Traveler

Please share these references -- thank you!

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