Setting aside the church to keep a career?


pwrfrk
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4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Several reasons: 
 

1) By focusing on the sins and weaknesses of everyone else, you'll begin to think you are better than them . 

2) By focusing on the sins and weaknesses of everyone else, you'll ignore your own, just based on time. 

3) Eventually no one will listen to you-no one likes a tattle tale, and no one listens to a priggish schoolmarm. 

There is a time and place to set someone straight, but you need to be very careful when doing it. 

 

My good friend MG – Thanks for your response – I do agree with a lot that you say is possible but there is a problem in the simple logic of the whole thing.  Actually there is more than one logical conundrum.

The first logical conundrum or flaw:  If it is spiritually damaging to be critical of other’s weaknesses – how is it that being critical of the weaknesses of others being critical of other’s weaknesses is helpful and not also both spiritually damaging and hypocritical?  In essence we become our own bad example being critical of those that are critical.

One of the sad lessons of life is that not everyone that criticizes you is your enemy and not everyone that flatters you is your friend.

For the second logical conundrum or flaw I will relate a story.  Anciently there was a good man that had risen to power and influence in the Roman empire.  He was a Centurion.   But he had a flaw and disease called leprosy.  He heard of a Prophet (Apostle) in Judah that could heal his leprosy.  He sent a servant to the Prophet desiring an audience.  But the Prophet would not meet with the Centurion – rather Prophet told the servant of the Centurion to tell the Centurion to wash 7 times in the river Jordon.  The Centurion was offended – he was a powerful Roman and this lowly Jew would not even show the honor of meeting.  But the command was to wash in the River Jordon.  Those that are familiar with the Jordan river know full well this is not an ideal place to go to become “clean” – you cannot see 6 inches through that silted water.

It was obvious to the Centurion that the Prophet’s recommendation was illogical and without merit.  Why waste any time or effort with such faulty advice.  The Centurion was about to bag the whole thing and be done with a prophet speaking foolishness.  But a servant in essence reminded the Centurion – “What do you have to lose?”  This story ends well because the Centurion did wash 7 times in the river Jordon and was healed of his leprosy.

My point is – if someone encourages you to do good – it is never wise to be offended.  I believe it was Benjamin Franklin that said, “Only a fool will be offended by someone that did not intend to offend – but it requires a greater fool to be offended by someone that intended the offence.”  

 

The Traveler

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I am an inactive active member if that makes any sense. I don't go to church much because I am always working at the railroad and have for 17 years. Every other word it seems is the F bomb around here. I used to never miss reading my scriptures daily or praying. Working at the railroad riding trains around 24/7 I stopped reading every day and made it every other day then that led to once a week then once every couple weeks then once a month until I stopped completely and pretty much didn't read my scriptures or pray much for that matter for several years. I rarely went to church. Some years I literally made it to church maybe 3 or 4 times if that because my shift covered Sunday. I read the BOM cover to cover 18 times before I went on my mission then zero times cover to cover after I got back. For a couple/few years I read quite well just not necessarily start to finish. But as life happened and I worked all the time it slowly shipped away as my fortitude gave out and I slowly started giving into certain vises. Such as I never would have in a million years bought something on the Sabbath day, now I do it without batting an eye. Being away from home at another terminal on the railroad got me into that. I could have worked around it with a little better planning but I didn't. Now I don't mind buying something on a Sunday even when I don't have to. Or doing an activity on a Sunday. I never would have hunted on a Sunday, now I don't mind. Also I never ever said a cuss word all the way until I was probably 24 or 25. Now I swear a lot. I am doing better on that though. When I was younger I remember looking ahead and thinking I would continually improve as I progressed through life and got older but man o man it did not pan out that way for me at all but quite the opposite. No ones fault but my own. I have fallen a long ways but such is life I suppose. Just have to keep pushing forward. The crummy part is I have lost a lot of desire to do some of those things such as scripture reading and going to church and praying. It is drudgery to me now. I do enjoy attending church though because I like to BS with everyone. I have seen this same thing happen to a friend of mine, his story is almost a mirror image of mine. Grew up staunch and now he cusses like a sailor and has a few vises he developed post mission. His work is in the steel industry and coarse language and such is the same their as it is at the railroad. Carry on!

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Big creek, I think that you can turn yourself around, if you put a little bit of effort into cleaning yourself up.  Start with the small stuff first, and pray about it.  And then keep working on the small stuff.  Then on a little bit bigger.  Before you know it you'll be itching to go to church!

I don't know what to say, really, other than wish you the best.

 

I know that some of the comments made in this thread have given me some valuable insight.  I kept judging others, then expressing my dissatisfaction with them when they'd judge me.  Certainly gives me something to work on to change!

 

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On June 27, 2018 at 1:42 AM, pwrfrk said:

Is it morally or ethically permissible for anyone baptized in the church to set aside the gospel and conduct expected of Mormons so they can "keep" their career?

I have seen this with a few cops I know, they said they set aside the church and church standards so they can keep their jobs.  I feel that if they-be it doctors, lawyers, cops and politicians, too-set aside their standards so they can do their job, then it is conduct unbecoming a priesthood holder.

I reflect on it like this- when you do wrong to someone, it is worthless to ask God to forgive you until you have asked the person you wronged to forgive you.  Then, if when you wronged them there were damages, you must compensate them accordingly.  Then, and only then, will you be forgiven.

What would the expected standards be?  Is it morally acceptable to set aside God for a job?  What about when you retire and return to the church?  Do you somehow have a special prayer to say so God will forgive you, even though your victims don't have to?  

To me there is nothing else about setting the church aside for a career could mean, but the commission of immoral and unethical conduct.  What else could there be?  Does that make it any mor right if no one is harmed and it's just immoral or unethical conduct?

I spent 8 years in the Army, and 23 in law-enforcement, and never had to "set aside" my Faith (LDS) nor my Faith in Jesus Christ. If  someone is knowing violating the commandments to keep their job, it is not worth it. Undercover work can certainly be a challenge for police officers, even duties in the military. But, being true to one's Faith is an asset to being successful in all endeavors, I would think, and from experience.  

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Bill, I think you're right.  If anything it's (to them) justifying do a lot of "bad stuff" without justification, with the totally whacked out idea that just because they come back to the church when they retire, somehow they will be forgiven. 

A couple of the guys I talked about do just that. 

My grandpa raised me, and he was a former cop.  He said that no matter how bad it gets, if the cops and prosecutors obey the US Constitution and the Holy Bible, the rest is "easy pickens" because they'll have Jesus on their side.

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I'm pretty sure there are a few stories about this very thing in the bible.

 

Didn't Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego have this exact same conundrum? "What? Worship an idol of the king? Sounds good to me!" I believe they said, followed by the life-affirming "Yeah. We cool. I get why you did that."

 

I'm pretty sure that was the whole thing. Also Joseph and Potipher's wife. And the whole Daniel and Darius thing. Didn't the King take Daniel to the zoo or something when Daniel agreed to give up all that he thought was moral so he could keep his job?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/27/2018 at 1:42 AM, pwrfrk said:

Is it morally or ethically permissible for anyone baptized in the church to set aside the gospel and conduct expected of Mormons so they can "keep" their career?

I don't know about the morality of it, but I'd say it's dumb.  

10,000 years from now in the afterlife:

"Wow, I'm sure glad I put all my mortal energy into that investment banking career rather than my eternal progression!"

-Nobody.  Ever.

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On 6/27/2018 at 7:53 AM, CV75 said:

Please provide some examples form the cop world -- thank you,

I retired due to disability in the insurance world. First I was terminated from a $180,000 a year job for reporting fraud, had my retirement frozen for trying to work for a competitor, and forced into bankruptcy. The local leaders only advice was to take a self reliance course. I have investigated in our several stake region and learned that Bishops are put under so much pressure to stay within their offerings budget they have ceased seeking out the poor and needy. I found one exception where a branch president is defiant and did what was right and he was not released. The most however give in to the pressure and seem hopeful they do not find any needy. Most are business minded and feel they must stay in their "budget". I have been in three bishoprics and know the only limit is on medical and in a recent disaster SLC made it plain that there were no caps but the local pressure not to spend trumps that. I know I did what was right in being honest to the point it cost me my job, but I was shocked that there was no real help from the Church even in advice. I felt the bishop felt I should have protected my family not my honor. If you chose to be honest you are on your own. I was fortunate that due to other factors I was accepted by SS Disability and I am scratching by. It seems that Bishops are becoming like false churches and worrying about income more than the needy. It worry's me that the world has become so bad, leaders are not trained in how to deal with the effects on members. Myself not even included I fear on a local level the mission of seeking out the poor and needy has been abandoned to save money and balance budgets. 

It would be hard for me to advise a person to quit their job or stand up and get fired because we cannot expect support. As a sales person I was challenged if I was the problem, I was would not lie and tell people they would get something free when in fact the price was added to the price they paid. I fear few people actually are honest. My family has been challenged by dishonesty even in the Church. My house flooded but all the help went to high profile people and leaders seeking television coverage. Leadership clearly went overboard to get attention for every thing we did in Hurricane Harvey. The Church would grow if we helped the poor and needy and did so anonymously. The bishopric should not announce they need extra fast offerings to help Sister "Smith" with repairs. Tithes and offering should first help the poor and needy because unless we do we have nothing. Buildings should not reflect, as they do now, the bottom line on tithing. You should not be able to tell by looking at a building what the average income in a Ward is. 

The Church is true but we training is needed what is right and doctrine. Budgets and goals should be thrown away. Church leaders face the same challenge.... do they do right or do they do what they are told in audits of expenditures and only spend what they bring in fast offerings.My experience are not the issue, the issue is what I  was force to see happening throughout the Church. The Church cannot be ran like a business. The Lord provides what is needed and Bishops should not feel their hands are tied.

How do we get the leaders to have the faith needed to do what is right?

Edited by john4truth
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40 minutes ago, john4truth said:

I have been in three bishoprics...

I find it endlessly fascinating how people can have similar experiences, and walk away with very, very different perspectives.  Hi john4truth, I am currently the finance clerk in my ward.  No check is written without my involvement.  The bishop and I know more about how fast offerings are used than any bishopric counselor, so if that's what you were, it might explain some of this:

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It seems that Bishops are becoming like false churches and worrying about income more than the needy.

Unalterable rule of the universe: "if you have five, then you can't give away six".   I mean, Christ can get away with it, but not us mortals.  How weird to see such a basic, common sense thing get phrased in terms of worrying about ability to spend, more than the needy.  

 

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The Church would grow if we helped the poor and needy and did so anonymously.

Does anyone else see the irony here?  If people were always helping the poor anonymously all the time, you wouldn't know about it.  Because of the dictionary definition of the word.  So for all you know, that's happening, you're just not seeing it.  And yet you somehow conclude it's not happening?

My bishop sees anonymous help happening all the time.  Occasionally he needs my help, and I get to see some of it too. 

At the end of the day, if you want there to be more anonymous helping of the poor and needy in the church, hop to it brother.  You got all the stewardship you need right there in what you see when you look in the mirror.  Disabled or not, financially sound or not.  You have time/talent/resources to give.  If you disagree, then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. 

 

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Tithes and offering should first help the poor and needy... 

Um, again... Fast offerings go nowhere except to the needy.  I get audited every six months by someone who has that as one of his things to verify.

 

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Buildings should not reflect, as they do now, the bottom line on tithing. You should not be able to tell by looking at a building what the average income in a Ward is.

Not sure what you're griping about here...  I've lived, at different times, surrounded by affluence and poverty, and the churches seem to look the same.  Maybe this is just my experience living in the US in the present day with modern facilities management practices and all, and it wasn't always that way.   Or are you complaining about how the church won't build until there is sufficient membership to support the building with tithing?  

 

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Budgets and goals should be thrown away. 

And replaced with John Lennon's Imagine, no doubt. 

 

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Church leaders face the same challenge do they do right or do they do what they are told in audits of expenditures and only spend what they bring in fast offerings.

The church has been too bright for that sort of nonsense since the '60's and N. Eldon Tanner.  I mean really - what utter, total, complete, foolish claptrap. Pretending financial realities don't exist, and refusing to deal with them, is not a solution to anything.   

Here - have a fun article.  Sort of required reading for anyone wishing to give the church advice on what it should do with it's money.

 

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The Church is true but...

Heh.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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On 8/1/2018 at 3:10 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I find it endlessly fascinating how people can have similar experiences, and walk away with very, very different perspectives.  Hi john4truth, I am currently the finance clerk in my ward.  No check is written without my involvement.  The bishop and I know more about how fast offerings are used than any bishopric counselor, so if that's what you were, it might explain some of this:

Unalterable rule of the universe: "if you have five, then you can't give away six".   I mean, Christ can get away with it, but not us mortals.  How weird to see such a basic, common sense thing get phrased in terms of worrying about ability to spend, more than the needy.  

 

Does anyone else see the irony here?  If people were always helping the poor anonymously all the time, you wouldn't know about it.  Because of the dictionary definition of the word.  So for all you know, that's happening, you're just not seeing it.  And yet you somehow conclude it's not happening?

My bishop sees anonymous help happening all the time.  Occasionally he needs my help, and I get to see some of it too. 

At the end of the day, if you want there to be more anonymous helping of the poor and needy in the church, hop to it brother.  You got all the stewardship you need right there in what you see when you look in the mirror.  Disabled or not, financially sound or not.  You have time/talent/resources to give.  If you disagree, then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. 

 

Um, again... Fast offerings go nowhere except to the needy.  I get audited every six months by someone who has that as one of his things to verify.

 

Not sure what you're griping about here...  I've lived, at different times, surrounded by affluence and poverty, and the churches seem to look the same.  Maybe this is just my experience living in the US in the present day with modern facilities management practices and all, and it wasn't always that way.   Or are you complaining about how the church won't build until there is sufficient membership to support the building with tithing?  

 

And replaced with John Lennon's Imagine, no doubt. 

 

The church has been too bright for that sort of nonsense since the '60's and N. Eldon Tanner.  I mean really - what utter, total, complete, foolish claptrap. Pretending financial realities don't exist, and refusing to deal with them, is not a solution to anything.   

Here - have a fun article.  Sort of required reading for anyone wishing to give the church advice on what it should do with it's money.

 

Heh.  

It simple some people wear rose colored glasses. The Church doctrine is specific. A bishop is only a bishop when acting under the direction of the Spirit. Yes we must sustain them regardless. Leaders need the incouraged not to act with out the help of deity. Some would like to not face the truth, but all of us are guilty if we have been leaders. Dissecting my remarks make it easier to ignore truth. History proves I am accurate such as when a GA said we are a white Church, there are men living on the moon, and etc. The information is out there and for the sake of the our children and the future finding a "clever" way to avoid truth doesn't work anymore. I have a solid testimony even knowing the truth. Avoiding truth hurts the church. We can all become as the GA that was excommunicated for dishonesty but avoiding the truth is hurting an informed generation. I will be fine because I understand even the prophet is imperfect. When I said ignore goals and budgets, please be honest and read in context. If a family has real needs as defined by the Handbook we must forget how much we bring in in fast offering. A Bishop told me a bishop that never exceeds his fast offering income is most likely failing he duty to SEEK out and care for the poor and needy. This is one of the biggest failures a bishop can make.            My comments about buildings is due to the fact that PFRs in this state show favoritism to wealthy Wards. They are just men with flaws. I had that stake assignment 10 years ago....a building had a problem with the HVAC leaking water. The local pfr has said publicly he has a problem with that units attitude.  10 years later the leak is still there with mold and mildew.        The problem is consistent, men are not perfect and anyone who speaks up is made a villain and accused of being ignorant or unrighteous. I wish I was like my wife and most, but I feel ignoring real problems  is not what the Lord asks of us. I agree with a bishop that was my best friend, it is better to give too much help than risk failure in meeting needs. I will not revisit this thread because I feel no good can come of it. Most will not admit not allowing blacks to have the priesthood was a leadership error even though the prophet authorized this to be admitted. Men are not bad but we're all far from perfect and refusal to admit that is a problem

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On 6/27/2018 at 10:43 AM, lostinwater said:

i'll be the first one to admit that i think (and sometimes say) otherwise, but i think it's very rare that telling someone to repent or change does any good.  After you subtract that times when i am the one who is wrong about them being wrong, the times when they already know what i am reminding them of, the times when i wouldn't convey what i actually was trying to say, and the times when they are not "repenting" because their "sin" it is a necessary/protective coping mechanism whose sudden removal would spin them into a much worse place - there just aren't many reasons to tell people that their attempt at being their best selves isn't cutting the mustard for me or my interpretation of God.

At least not a reason that does them any good.  Jesus can talk to people and work with them in a way that doesn't get their fists raised.  Every time i try, i fail - pretty spectacularly.

You can only offer council under the direction of the Spirit

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4 minutes ago, john4truth said:

Physical facility Representative you are in a different world and have no idea what.....

My reply was for @mirkwood, which is why I quoted Mirkwood.  I wish I were in a different world, but alas, I'm stuck in this one.  And I do have an idea what... (meaning, it was a joke, for Mirkwood) (this paragraph has now become a terminal loop).

I'm sure @NeuroTypical appreciates the answer, however.

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23 minutes ago, john4truth said:

Cops are a fraternity. I reported bad activity to a state trooper commanding officer. He simply called a liar and did nothing. I called my congressman and he called back and said it was all on video. The CO never would admit he did anything wrong. They call each other brother and cover for each at any cost. My cousin is county but says he can't eat with them due to the bragging about improper activity by blackmailing teenage girls. My cousin lost his daughter to a drunk driver. I have watched troopers violate many laws (I am old) and in Texas they have a fraternity with vows. My daughter was top graduate in the academy but said the corruption and expected cover up was too much. In Texas they deny everything but it is so common it is unbelievable. A large number carry drop guns to put in a shooting victims hand. In fact I was given one by a friend of mine who said they gather them on the street when no one will claim a gun. Troopers in Texas make over $100,000 after 3 years. It is a controversy no politicians will touch. The fraternity commits law men to violate Church guidelines and all ethics. I know too much and have even been warned how easy it is to plant things on your kids and grandkids so I chose not to fight this fight because it's too risky.

All are not doing bad but exposing the truth would end the career of ani lawman. Texas has a history of this Texas Rangers were feared because of their reputation of not leaving it up to a jury to handle. We had a member who plead guilty but tried to report illegal activities by the arresting officers. He and his friend were together guilty of the exact same crimes and neither had a prior history and the only difference was trying to turn in an officer. His buddy got 5 years he got 10.  I was very close to the the events and thought he was helping himself by producing evidence but was sickened by the judge who obviously was a part of their brotherhood.

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On 8/3/2018 at 8:18 PM, john4truth said:

All are not doing bad but exposing the truth would end the career of ani lawman. Texas has a history of this Texas Rangers were feared because of their reputation of not leaving it up to a jury to handle. We had a member who plead guilty but tried to report illegal activities by the arresting officers. He and his friend were together guilty of the exact same crimes and neither had a prior history and the only difference was trying to turn in an officer. His buddy got 5 years he got 10.  I was very close to the the events and thought he was helping himself by producing evidence but was sickened by the judge who obviously was a part of their brotherhood.

Edited by john4truth
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On 8/3/2018 at 8:37 PM, john4truth said:

There are honest attorneys but my sister worked for what people think are some of the best in our area. She said all she ever worked for billed double the hours they worked. If they have 3 cases an hours drive from the office all 3 clients were billed for the entire trip. An attorney friend said it is a terrible job. A judge came to him with a common scheme of rigging cases for profit. He said it is a no win situation. Nothing is in writing and if you don't play you are discriminated against and the judge see to it that you're very limited in winning. Attorneys either take a risk and make a lot of money or fail in jury trials. My friend said most case have set outcome long before trials. To be an honest attorney most stay away from common jury trials. I personally was out of sight and listened to opposing attorneys discuss the rigging system. 

 

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On 6/27/2018 at 1:52 AM, pwrfrk said:

When you see something like this, is it wrong to confront the other person and tell them their conduct is improper?

 

Because insurance companies pay so little it is hard for doctors to not be fraudulent to survive.

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Guest MormonGator
7 minutes ago, john4truth said:

Because insurance companies pay so little it is hard for doctors to not be fraudulent to survive.

You think most doctors commit fraud? I have an unromantic view of the medical profession (Mom was a nurse, comes with the territory), but no, I don't think it's hard for them to make a living unless they turn to a life of crime. 

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3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You think most doctors commit fraud? I have an unromantic view of the medical profession (Mom was a nurse, comes with the territory), but no, I don't think it's hard for them to make a living unless they turn to a life of crime. 

I didn't say nurses but a Bishop doctor informed me it's now nearly impossible to make a profit and be honest. Many good doctors are still honest. It is difficult, I quit a doctor because I overheard a staff being chastised for not doing a better job of finding a way to get more money. Few occupations are immune even Church employees Lol with hard nose bosses. 

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On 8/1/2018 at 3:10 PM, NeuroTypical said:

Something neorotypical lol

Helping the needy must exceed local fast offerings. I too have been a financial clerk. I have seen the good and the failures

Edited by john4truth
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