Setting aside the church to keep a career?

[NeuroTypical]

In my ward, there's a lady who occasionally figures it's her job to mention other people's sins to them.  She has urged fat people to do a better job of obeying the word of wisdom.  She brings it up when she sees a hymnal on the floor, asking us to be more respectful.  She approached one of our young women who was walking around barefoot in the foyer, and asked her to be respectful and wear shoes.  The young woman was a barely-active struggling person, there because her mom had begged her to go.  I've not seen her at church since.

I measure efforts like these in the amount of damage they do to my fellow humans.  I must say, whenever I see someone sinning in ways differently than me, I'm a fan of John 8:7 and Matthew 7:3-5. 

No really, hey everyone, go read the dang link.  This is what righteous judgment looks like:

Quote

First, a righteous judgment must, by definition, be intermediate. It will refrain from declaring that a person has been assured of exaltation or from dismissing a person as being irrevocably bound for hellfire. 

Second, a righteous judgment will be guided by the Spirit of the Lord, not by anger, revenge, jealousy, or self-interest. 

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. 

Fourth, we should, if possible, refrain from judging until we have adequate knowledge of the facts. 

A fifth principle of a righteous intermediate judgment is that whenever possible we will refrain from judging people and only judge situations. 

Sixth, forgiveness is a companion principle

Seventh, a final ingredient or principle of a righteous judgment is that it will apply righteous standards. If we apply unrighteous standards, our judgment will be unrighteous. 

#'s 2, 3, 4, and 5 come by less often than we seem to think.

[person0]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

. . . telling others that they will never be as holy as we are.

Well, I mean, if its true its true, you know?

[Overwatch]

2 hours ago, BeccaKirstyn said:

I see what you mean, but directly approaching someone about a specific sin is not your place. 

Can you lovingly show them that you care about them and love them despite their weaknesses? Yep. But directly saying "stop sinning" is not what we're here for. 

I can meet you halfway on this. If it is approaching someone at church, who is not directly in your stewardship or even intimately connected through friendship, then I suppose I can see this. If my friends is being horrible then I am going to say something. I would expect him to hold me accountable too. It would go something like "Look man I love you but you need to stop cheating on Susan. I know she is hard to be around sometimes but either get help or divorce".

It IS my place to hold my siblings accountable and THEIRS to help me also in the same regard. What good does it do to pacify me by not approaching me on my sin? I would wake up in hell if people didn't hold me accountable.

[BeccaKirstyn]

44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

No really, hey everyone, go read the dang link.  This is what righteous judgment looks like:

I read the dang link! haha. Great article. 

[JayKi]

14 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

 What would the expected standards be?  Is it morally acceptable to set aside God for a job?  What about when you retire and return to the church?  Do you somehow have a special prayer to say so God will forgive you, even though your victims don't have to?  

 

No is not acceptable. I was convince I would not do mission because I had place at med school and to take 2 year break would mean I lose my place. Now I in final year of my neurosurgeon training, I think you must trust God to assist you in career by keeping standards. 

Sometimes I must work Sunday when I have placement and I prayed about this and it was revealed to me that is fine for me to do this. 

Is definitely unacceptable to put practicing religion on hold to keep career then return to religion when career is over.  I dont understand why anyone who knows church is true would want to do this anyway. 

As for judgement I believe is no right to tell someone they wrong unless you are yourself no committing that sin and have never commit that sin. "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her". John 8 verse 7

Edited June 27, 2018 by JayKi

[Fether]

5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Though i guess what i am trying to say is that letting Jesus do the rebuking, or lack thereof, and just providing a gentle, kind, (some will call snow-flakey) kind of environment has, for me at least, proven to be way more effective than when i try to reverse those roles.  

I agree that those are all essential when ministering, but consider the following.

”A person with a good heart can help someone fix a tire, take a roommate to the doctor, have lunch with someone who is sad, or smile and say hello to brighten a day.

But a follower of the first commandment will naturally add to these important acts of service, encouraging the person who is doing well in keeping the commandments and sharing wise counsel to strengthen the faith of someone who is slipping or who needs help in moving back onto the path he once traveled.

[In life]  you are surrounded by believers who are in various stages of belief and testimony. I challenge you to strengthen your efforts to spiritually minister to one another. To minister spiritually can begin with baking cookies or playing a basketball game, but eventually this holier way of ministering requires opening your heart and your faith, taking courage in encouraging the positive growth you are seeing in a friend, or expressing concerns about things you see and feel are not consistent with discipleship.

Let us not be self-righteous, but let us be spiritually courageous in ministering in a holier way, specifically by strengthening the faith of others.” (The quote continues in one of my earlier posts, I suggest you read on in that if you haven’t)

- Elder Neil L Anderson

Simply being a good friend is great, but it  is not enough in our ministering to those around us

[NeuroTypical]

So, I was assigned to hometeach a crotchety old sinner, who returned to activity because his wife had about had it with him.  He told us about his smoking and drinking.  We invited him to church.  He told us about his sinful past, we called him brother and my companion bought a wood splitter with him and they worked together at it.  He told us he refused to go to Elder's quorum because of the stupid horrible things some past EQP had said to him.  We said we understood, and that we were grateful he kept letting us in every month.  I figure his wife was doing much in the way of pushing and whatnot, but we did little to none of it.  After he gained a little trust that we weren't judgmental jerks like so many others in his life, he warmed up to us.  We brought a message, and answered stuff as it came up.  He came back to church, even started going to Elders quorum.  He was trying to jump in with both feet and be fully active.  He wanted to keep his wife, live clean.  His sinful past and lifelong bad habits, coupled with PTSD from Vietnam, often got in the way.  

He asked us for advice once.  He had an opportunity to buy a bar.  He was struggling financially, his veterans benefits weren't helping, he was still years away from the military realizing he was fully disabled and couldn't work.  But his buddy would let him have the bar cheap, and he could run it.  He wanted to know what that would mean to us, and to church.  I told him if he bought the bar, we would still welcome him at church.  I would still be happy to sit next to him.  We would keep coming to see him as long as he'd have us.  It would probably keep him out of the temple, and not sure how others would treat him.  I mentioned that God might have an opinion on the subject, and if he hadn't sought it out, he should. 

Well, he didn't buy the bar.  His vet benefits eventually got to where they should be, with back benefits attached.  He and his wife eventually did a multiyear stint as temple workers.  He has his spiritual ups and downs.  He was a counselor in the High Priests until someone set him off and he started leaving after sacrament again.  The other month a new bishop caught him, now he and his wife are teaching primary.  He is a mix of sin and righteousness, gratitude and shame, weakness and strength.  Kind of like all of us I suppose, except more of his stuff is out there in the open for all to see.

I guess if "encouraging someone to live righteously" falls on a spectrum, I took the shallow end of the pool.  Not sure the contribution I've made to his last 20 years, but I don't think I've done wrong by him or by God.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

He is a mix of sin and righteousness, gratitude and shame, weakness and strength.  Kind of like all of us I suppose, except more of his stuff is out there in the open for all to see.

It's the human condition. The outward sins are obvious, but someone with an active temple recommend might be just as flawed (if not more so) than this guy. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by MormonGator

[mirkwood]

19 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

I have seen this with a few cops I know, they said they set aside the church and church standards so they can keep their jobs.  

I've been a cop for 21 years.  The only guys/gals doing this are looking for an excuse to be inactive.

[Guest MormonGator]

10 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I've been a cop for 21 years.  The only guys/gals doing this are looking for an excuse to be inactive.

Are a lot of police officers members? What do you think the percentage is? 

[Overwatch]

46 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

I've been a cop for 21 years.  The only guys/gals doing this are looking for an excuse to be inactive.

Hey thanks for all you do. I served in a law enforcement position when I was younger. It was very easy to get sucked into a negative mindset. Working long hours at times and being around negativity basically all day. Very easy to let it beat you down if you are not careful. I saw divorce and even suicide among my peers, not easy when practically all of your "clients" want to see you get hurt somehow. Lol. 

[Overwatch]

41 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Are a lot of police officers members? What do you think the percentage is? 

Yes, even more so in the FBI and NSA.  Average Mormon boys and girls are what these agencies are looking for when they grow up. Boring lives, morally upright, usually multilingual (Missionary service) and very professional employees.

Also depends on your agency location for percentage, I wouldn't be able to answer that. 

[askandanswer]

22 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

Is it morally or ethically permissible for anyone baptized in the church to set aside the gospel and conduct expected of Mormons so they can "keep" their career?

 

This sounds like a case of swapping long term eternal benefits for short term temporal security or swapping peace of mind and spirit for a few extra dollars. Its a bad trade. 

[pwrfrk]

What I have seen is, as I said in the OP, cops I know that are LDS, are willing to set church standards aside, and truthfully, to be bullies.  I know of a man that was prosecuted for molesting his daughter.  Problem is, even she said it never happened.  Not just him, but her.  She even provided a letter to the court saying that none of it ever happened.  The judge even refused him the right to appeal.  The detective, LDS, though I'm uncertain if he's an elder or not.  The prosecutor, an elder.  The assistant prosecutor, an elder.  The judge, a high priest.  They have a history of abusing non-Mormons and Mormons alike.   This is why I labeled immorality and unethical conduct. 

I my nearly 50 years of living, this is not the first time I have seen this, nor will it be the last.  When I see how people that hold such positions are so willing to behave like this, to perform their duties/jobs/functions like this,  and no I'm not saying ALL were cops, but some are, and yes some are even doctors, and the damage they do, the lives destroyed, and no matter what I do know about them, I will never ever EVER understand why.

Because when they "return to the fold", they're gonna have to repent for their many sins, like we all have and do.  And to me, you just cannot go and say "Hey, God, you know, I was trying my best to be a good boy, will you forgive me of ll of my sins?" without going to those you have harmed, and asking them for forgiveness.  Uh, like dude, HOW is that supposed to happen?  You are somehow gonna go to this guy you put away 20 to life for a crime he swears he didn't commit, and you're gonna say "Hi there, my friend!  How are you?"  -enter brief mediochre conversation- "Say, you know I realize we havn't exactly liked each other, I mean you know I put you away for 20 to life and all, but would you forgive me?"  What does the prisoner say?  "Oh gosh!  Suuuure!  I love you my brother!  I'll do it in a heart beat!" acting timid while blushing?  How does compensation for damages come about?  We're not talking one or two people.  We're talking a lot more than that.  Bearing false witness, lying, ignoring testimony, depriving of their rights under law...?  What happened to the Articles of Faith, here?

When these guys put the church aside, they are still going every Sunday.  They still partake of sacrament.  And last I knew the judge and prosecutor also have their temple recommends.  And to answer a question I think the cops here are ready to ask, no.  I do not have any cases pending now or have had in the past with this trio.

I have experienced this kind of abuse, but not by them.

We have good people and bad people, everywhere we go.  But this, how some members are capable of this, they do this, and it's almost like it's ok, because of who they are...?

It was because of people like that that I walked away from the church 20+ years ago. 

 

I am on my way back to the church, I made it clear to my bishop I'm coming back, I know what my errors were and I repented for them.  But to say that my disgust for the likes of these guys no longer exists would be a lie.  I jut wish that there was attention paid to members like these guys by bishopric/stake presidency/area authorities.  It's not right. 

And no, I won't provide case #'s.

[mirkwood]

9 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Are a lot of police officers members? What do you think the percentage is? 

That depends on where you work.  We have around 425 or so officers.  About 50 of us are active.

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

  I know of a man that was prosecuted for molesting his daughter.  Problem is, even she said it never happened.  Not just him, but her.  She even provided a letter to the court saying that none of it ever happened.  The judge even refused him the right to appeal.  The detective, LDS, though I'm uncertain if he's an elder or not.  The prosecutor, an elder.  The assistant prosecutor, an elder.  The judge, a high priest.  They have a history of abusing non-Mormons and Mormons alike.   This is why I labeled immorality and unethical conduct. 

 

Or maybe you know of a man who bullied/coerced his victim into recanting so he would not be prosecuted.

Cause that never happens...

 

[scottyg]

It seems to me that if someone thought that way then they are simply lacking in faith. It is no different when someone doesn't pay their Tithing. They do not believe that the Lord has the power and ability to bless their lives in way that can make up for any temporal defect. If we are asked to do things in our careers that distance us from God, then we should begin a search for new employment. The Lord will not leave us, but will provide for those who have the faith to follow him. True faith results in action.

[zil]

Welcome, @scottyg!

[Traveler]

 

I am somewhat conflicted with how this thread is going.  I will begin by saying I believe we have an obligation to help one another.  So how can we help anyone if we do not know what it is that they can improve?   Or believe that we can judge such a thing?  Then how can we help them if we refuse to say or do anything about how they can improve. 

Has no one ever had a coach in sports?  Has no one ever taken music lessons to learn techniques?   At one point of my life I thought I would be a teacher (I cannot spell so teaching did not work out).  While I was studying I thought to specialize in exceptional learners – in other words genius.   Does anyone want to guess what the #1 most common denominator of the world’s geniuses is?  The answer is that they have a mentor.

Sometimes a mentor tells their novice about almost insignificant things that they and almost everybody else are doing wrong.  Sometimes mentors tell their novice to swallow their pride and keep going even after everyone else has quit and told them to quit as well.  One thing I do not believe is that a successful mentor tells anyone – that is; to quit or take the easy way out.  My father was a mentor to me.  One thing he told me was that failure is used incorrectly – as long as you are striving and making progress he would say there is no failure.  Then he would say that a failure is someone that has accepted the excuse.  He would say failure is never because of anyone else – failure is one of the things you can only do yourself.  But then to him – not winning at sports was not a failure. 

And as my father would say – giving up on a good thing is the worst kind of failure.   Almost as bad as turning your mentors into critics.  The difference between a critic and a mentor is in the person that no longer believes in themselves – that they can do better.  How does a mentor fail?  They give up on their novice and become afraid to talk about improvements and how to accomplish good – especially through covenant with G-d.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 28, 2018 by Traveler

[zil]

@Traveler, I think you would like this talk: "Be 100 Percent Responsible" by Lynn G. Robbins.  (I only discovered it this week, finished reading it yesterday.)

[Guest MormonGator]

All true @Traveler, but we have to respect each others privacy and boundaries.

A good way to ruin your life is to convince yourself that is your job to point out the weakness and flaws of every other person out there and convince yourself you can change them. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by MormonGator

[pwrfrk]

Well, I had intended to not have disclosed the info I did, because, as Mirk said, essentially, who knows?  Well, in the case of the young man I spoke of, I am inclined to think intimidation was not a factor.  Why?  Because there is a lot more to the case that I did not disclose.  But enough of that.  There are still examples I have had personal involvement in, and those are rock solid.

In the end I have to say that Scotty has one of the best replies. 

I talked with a close friend from church (he knows all of this that I have talked about here, and in more detail) earlier today, and he asked me "Are you going to step away, again, because of this?"  He knows know how much I was hurt, damaged, by one of the cases.  And I'll tell you guys like I told him, "No.  I still have to account for everything I do to God someday.  Just...like...they...do.  I am obligated to forgive, so I will.  I have no choice.  Whether or not they follow their responsibilities, that's up to them.

[Traveler]

4 hours ago, MormonGator said:

All true @Traveler, but we have to respect each others privacy and boundaries.

A good way to ruin your life is to convince yourself that is your job to point out the weakness and flaws of every other person out there and convince yourself you can change them. 

 

To be sure, one lesson is that in reality the only life that we can truly ruin is our own.  I agree in part that no one can be forced or coerced (we all have agency and choose our destiny).    I find it interesting that you are concerned that we ruin our own lives directing others to a better path.    Much more I believe we ruin our own lives finding excuses to remain on an inferior path because we are bitter and find fault and excuse in those striving for and suggesting a better path.   As a youth I was resentful of many – but I have discovered that resentment is a favorite companion of pride. 

My father often advised me not to get upset with anyone giving me advice to be a better person.   I have learned by sad experience that to advise someone to be better that does not intend to be better is more likely to make an enemy than a friend.  – Which is sad.  We should all strive to be friends with those striving for improvement.  But there are many that believe friends will support them in deliberate mediocracy.

We all can do better and should not resent being told so.  If we should resent someone – why not resent those that think we do not need to strive or struggle (even risk failure) to be better.

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

@scottyg Hello! Glad that you are here!

[Guest MormonGator]

10 hours ago, Traveler said:

    I find it interesting that you are concerned that we ruin our own lives directing others to a better path.   

Several reasons: 
 

1) By focusing on the sins and weaknesses of everyone else, you'll begin to think you are better than them . 

2) By focusing on the sins and weaknesses of everyone else, you'll ignore your own, just based on time. 

3) Eventually no one will listen to you-no one likes a tattle tale, and no one listens to a priggish schoolmarm. 

There is a time and place to set someone straight, but you need to be very careful when doing it. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by MormonGator