Setting aside the church to keep a career?


pwrfrk
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1 hour ago, john4truth said:

No cash should be but the only only limit on a bishop is medical bills you have a lot more fast offering given than here

We built a home for a burned out family. LoL this is my point traveling two separate stakes for 6 years I saw a drastic difference between bishops, and some avoided the poor and needy some went overboard. At judgement I would rather be the one that helped too much.  My comments are just factual observation. Nothing to do with my finances. I have been blessed to be self reliant. I am extremely familiar with actual Church policy and it seems you have a great bishop.

 

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I believe it is well documented how unwise it is for people in the cheap seats to tell someone how he "should" do his job.

In the Church I am a member of their are no cheap seats. I am a thankfully a convert, and in the last 33 year's there has not been a stake priesthood leadership meeting I was not a part of . I have also been blessed to have met an extreme number of apostles living out side of Utah and Idaho. I am not trying to tell anyone how to do their job but it bothers me when doctrine is ignored even if it only in 1 out of 4 wards 

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On 8/11/2018 at 12:49 PM, Fether said:

I agree, I never suggested in my comment that we ought to judge others or act out of pride.

I am saying that we can’t be fearful to reach out to those who are struggling and offer assistance. Simply saying “it isn’t my business” makes us no different than the priest that walked past the wounded man in the parable of the Good Samaritan. We need to be courageous and help our friends that are steeped in sin.

There is a line of demarcation

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On 8/31/2018 at 9:23 PM, john4truth said:

This statement makes my point better than I could. It is amazing what people think they know.

Ok. But then...

On 8/31/2018 at 10:16 PM, john4truth said:

In the Church I am a member of their are no cheap seats. I am a thankfully a convert, and in the last 33 year's there has not been a stake priesthood leadership meeting I was not a part of . I have also been blessed to have met an extreme number of apostles living out side of Utah and Idaho. I am not trying to tell anyone how to do their job but it bothers me when doctrine is ignored even if it only in 1 out of 4 wards 

Huh?

Notice that my previous post was not directed to you, but to the OP.  I was talking about telling someone what to do with their careers.  That was what the original question was about, remember?  I was not talking about Church callings. 

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On 8/29/2018 at 1:03 PM, Blackmarch said:

i've known people who made that decision where it was either the job or losing the home... and having made the sacrifice, things happened; the dad got a raise, people who had extra food  would just happen to stop by and ask if they wanted the extras, people at work needed someone to fill in so dad was able to get those, all sorts of things which can have a monetary value attached to it.

In such a case it would be acceptable as you're only talking about scheduling, not the dismissal of the morality and ethics of being a Mormon.

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On 8/31/2018 at 9:16 PM, john4truth said:

In the Church I am a member of their are no cheap seats. I am a thankfully a convert, and in the last 33 year's there has not been a stake priesthood leadership meeting I was not a part of . I have also been blessed to have met an extreme number of apostles living out side of Utah and Idaho. I am not trying to tell anyone how to do their job but it bothers me when doctrine is ignored even if it only in 1 out of 4 wards 

Precisely. 

To help Carborendum and others, it's not a matter of "I had to skip out on paying tithing because of...(insert reason)" or "I didn't go to church because of...(insert reason)".  While those could be ethics issues, in the extreme, they affect no one, thus in my opinion, that's something between you and Heavenly Father.  Let me give an old, old example.

Many years ago, and we're talking back in the 80's & 90's, I was young and in good shape, and having been raised on a small "hobby" farm in a farming community, I knew how to pick, drive tractor, lots of stuff (really don't want to go into all the details IOW).  But once I turned 18, the farmers preferred hiring illegal aliens.  And we went to the same ward. 

I asked the Bishop about it and he said "they have to do what they do because it's hard work and they have to make a living."  Ok, so we're talking about putting aside the morals and ethics of being Mormon, so one can make a buck or two.  The work performed isn't the issue.  Whether or not I could get a job is not the issue.  What is the issue is, in that case, hiring illegal aliens so one (the farmer) would have more money coming in, but excusing it saying it's so he can make a living.

Okay.  Now let us turn this around.

Now you have a disabled vet fresh from the sandbox.  He needs money.  So he robs a bank.  It's now ok, because the farmer hired illegal aliens so he could make a living.  But wait!  Now we have this young coule, in their late teens, dropped out of high school because of drugs.  Can't find work, so...they start dealing drugs to their friends.  But that's ok, because the farmer and the vet had to break the law as well so they could make a living. 

In all three cases they ignored gospel.  They put the church aside for their own immoral and unethical reasons.  Is that acceptable, since it's to make a living?  Would it be more acceptable if they paid not on taxes on their income, but tithing and fast offerings?

I say that in all three cases it's not acceptable or excusable.  Both immoral (against the unwritten standards) and unethical (against the written standards and laws).

Am I the only one?  Strangely, it's starting to feel that way.

Edited by pwrfrk
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17 minutes ago, pwrfrk said:

Precisely. 

To help Carborendum and others, it's not a matter of "I had to skip out on paying tithing because of...(insert reason)" or "I didn't go to church because of...(insert reason)".  While those could be ethics issues, in the extreme, they affect no one, thus in my opinion, that's something between you and Heavenly Father.  Let me give an old, old example.

Many years ago, and we're talking back in the 80's & 90's, I was young and in good shape, and having been raised on a small "hobby" farm in a farming community, I knew how to pick, drive tractor, lots of stuff (really don't want to go into all the details IOW).  But once I turned 18, the farmers preferred hiring illegal aliens.  And we went to the same ward. 

I asked the Bishop about it and he said "they have to do what they do because it's hard work and they have to make a living."  Ok, so we're talking about putting aside the morals and ethics of being Mormon, so one can make a buck or two.  The work performed isn't the issue.  Whether or not I could get a job is not the issue.  What is the issue is, in that case, hiring illegal aliens so one (the farmer) would have more money coming in, but excusing it saying it's so he can make a living.

Okay.  Now let us turn this around.

Now you have a disabled vet fresh from the sandbox.  He needs money.  So he robs a bank.  It's now ok, because the farmer hired illegal aliens so he could make a living.  But wait!  Now we have this young coule, in their late teens, dropped out of high school because of drugs.  Can't find work, so...they start dealing drugs to their friends.  But that's ok, because the farmer and the vet had to break the law as well so they could make a living. 

In all three cases they ignored gospel.  They put the church aside for their own immoral and unethical reasons.  Is that acceptable, since it's to make a living?  Would it be more acceptable if they paid not on taxes on their income, but tithing and fast offerings?

I say that in all three cases it's not acceptable or excusable.  Am I the only one?

Ok.  Thank you for at least providing examples of what you're talking about.

There is a difference between the farmer and the other two examples you gave.  The actual money making activity is what is illegal.  Yes, you could make an argument about illegal aliens making money for the farmer.  But that is at least a degree removed from what the other two are doing.

Even if you were to ignore that minor difference, you'd still ask:  Is that an excuse to do something illegal?  Do you drive over the speed limit to get to work on time?  Have you ever done so when you're out on a field trip for work?  The basic comments from the General authorities regarding illegal immigration have been essentially 

  • Yes, it is illegal.  Yes, we obey the laws of the land.
  • A Latter-day Saint's standing in the Church will be effected by the severity of a crime being committed.
  • Being an illegal alien or aiding and abetting (by paying them for work) is tantamount with getting a speeding ticket (level of severity).
  • Minor offenses such as these will not affect  person's standing in the Church.
  • We still encourage all of the membership to obey the laws of the land and do not in any way endorse or encourage anyone to break any laws.

Does that help?

---  For the record.  I, myself, am firmly against illegal immigration or aiding abetting the same.  And I'd do what I could to not work with anyone who was illegally present in the US.  But sometimes, it is not within my control.  And when it is not, what can I do?

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Ok.  Thank you for at least providing examples of what you're talking about.

There is a difference between the farmer and the other two examples you gave.  The actual money making activity is what is illegal.  Yes, you could make an argument about illegal aliens making money for the farmer.  But that is at least a degree removed from what the other two are doing.

Even if you were to ignore that minor difference, you'd still ask:  Is that an excuse to do something illegal?  Do you drive over the speed limit to get to work on time?  Have you ever done so when you're out on a field trip for work?  The basic comments from the General authorities regarding illegal immigration have been essentially 

  • Yes, it is illegal.  Yes, we obey the laws of the land.
  • A Latter-day Saint's standing in the Church will be effected by the severity of a crime being committed.
  • Being an illegal alien or aiding and abetting (by paying them for work) is tantamount with getting a speeding ticket (level of severity).
  • Minor offenses such as these will not affect  person's standing in the Church.
  • We still encourage all of the membership to obey the laws of the land and do not in any way endorse or encourage anyone to break any laws.

Does that help?

No.  And I'll tell you why.

In all three cases we have the same basic issues- committing crime to make money.  You get into the intimate details of the crimes, labeling them based on severity.  Now let's look at it this way, instead- The farmer needs the money for...his meth addiction.  If you did your home teaching/ministry work, you just might find he also beats his wife and children.

The vet, an opioid addict.  So he's robbing banks to feed his addiction.  The two kids, the young man is 16, she is 18.  The young man is doing everything he can for his girlfriend because he loves her.  So he's dealing drugs so they can afford Firazyr.  She has heriditary angioedema.

And by far the biggest reason your answers couldn't help is that they are absolute.  And the part about paying tithing, this has nothing to do with standing in the church.  Income derived from an illegal sources is not titheable, because in accepting the tithing is that acceptance is giving permission to commit the crime.

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7 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You didn't answer my question about speeding.

It always amazes me how willing Mormons are to disregard speed limits.  When driving between Provo and SLC I will be the slow one on the Road (and I'd driving the speed limit when I'm driving in the area) while people drive 10-20 miles over the speed limit. 

I think, at times, the willingness one has to disregard the minor laws may reflect the SAME attitudes they have towards the Laws of the Lord that they consider minor or not as large as others.

On the actual topic of illegal aliens and being hired...it can range from a $250 fine to a $10,000 fine if you employ them, and the third time around is up to 6 months in jail.  That's fine I suppose.

HOWEVER...someone has to lodge them.

Many farmers have a similar thing to slavery on their farms where they lodge and feed the illegals they employ and take that money out of the worker's pay.  This effectively can keep many of the workers broke so they cannot pay their way back home.  Others, spend all the rest of the money sent home and so are basically kept on the farm with no other way out. 

For those employers who do not keep illegal aliens in lodging but simply employ them, someone else is going to be the one responsible for giving those workers lodging.

It can be a 10 year prison time for harboring illegal aliens.  This may also be considered a major crime beyond a felony.

Someone who commits a felony AND goes to prison for punishment MAY be eligible to be in the church courts to determine membership.

Just something to think about. 

My thoughts just to clarify what I think the LDS church's stance is.

The LDS church wants ALL it's members to be able to support themselves and has a great sympathy for those who do so in whatever circumstances, however it does NOT advocate breaking the laws of the land to do so.  The LDS church promotes helping those who are from other nations and in need, and does not note differences between those who are there legally or illegally, and advocate to support those who need it and for fairness for ALL the citizens of the world.  At the same time, they state to follow the LEGAL laws and leaders of your nation (which ever nation you are in or a part of).

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11 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

In such a case it would be acceptable as you're only talking about scheduling, not the dismissal of the morality and ethics of being a Mormon.

?
scheduling is not exempt from morality.
if the dismissal of mormon ethics and morality is justifiable for a situation then how much better is it when ethics and morality is kept for that situation?

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11 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

However, to entertain the thought, speeding isn't an issue because in speeding it affects no one.  Until you wreck.

And illegal immigration doesn't affect anyone... Until it does.

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4 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It always amazes me how willing Mormons are to disregard speed limits.  When driving between Provo and SLC I will be the slow one on the Road (and I'd driving the speed limit when I'm driving in the area) while people drive 10-20 miles over the speed limit. 

I think, at times, the willingness one has to disregard the minor laws may reflect the SAME attitudes they have towards the Laws of the Lord that they consider minor or not as large as others.

On the actual topic of illegal aliens and being hired...it can range from a $250 fine to a $10,000 fine if you employ them, and the third time around is up to 6 months in jail.  That's fine I suppose.

HOWEVER...someone has to lodge them.

Many farmers have a similar thing to slavery on their farms where they lodge and feed the illegals they employ and take that money out of the worker's pay.  This effectively can keep many of the workers broke so they cannot pay their way back home.  Others, spend all the rest of the money sent home and so are basically kept on the farm with no other way out. 

For those employers who do not keep illegal aliens in lodging but simply employ them, someone else is going to be the one responsible for giving those workers lodging.

It can be a 10 year prison time for harboring illegal aliens.  This may also be considered a major crime beyond a felony.

Someone who commits a felony AND goes to prison for punishment MAY be eligible to be in the church courts to determine membership.

Just something to think about. 

My thoughts just to clarify what I think the LDS church's stance is.

The LDS church wants ALL it's members to be able to support themselves and has a great sympathy for those who do so in whatever circumstances, however it does NOT advocate breaking the laws of the land to do so.  The LDS church promotes helping those who are from other nations and in need, and does not note differences between those who are there legally or illegally, and advocate to support those who need it and for fairness for ALL the citizens of the world.  At the same time, they state to follow the LEGAL laws and leaders of your nation (which ever nation you are in or a part of).

I don't disagree with anything you said. But I don't believe it actually addressed the points I made.  If it was not your intent to address my points, then you succeeded.

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49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I don't disagree with anything you said. But I don't believe it actually addressed the points I made.  If it was not your intent to address my points, then you succeeded.

I apologize then.  I must have misunderstood the conversation.  I'll step out of it presently after apologizing (which hopefully this does).  Once again I apologize.

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36 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I apologize then.  I must have misunderstood the conversation.  I'll step out of it presently after apologizing (which hopefully this does).  Once again I apologize.

I didn't think you did anything that requires an apology.  I felt no offense.   Sorry if it sounded like I did.  I just didn't follow how your comment fit into what I said.

If it did not, then it did not.  If it did, I must have missed something.

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On 6/27/2018 at 3:42 PM, pwrfrk said:

Is it morally or ethically permissible for anyone baptized in the church to set aside the gospel and conduct expected of Mormons so they can "keep" their career?

I have seen this with a few cops I know, they said they set aside the church and church standards so they can keep their jobs.  I feel that if they-be it doctors, lawyers, cops and politicians, too-set aside their standards so they can do their job, then it is conduct unbecoming a priesthood holder.

I reflect on it like this- when you do wrong to someone, it is worthless to ask God to forgive you until you have asked the person you wronged to forgive you.  Then, if when you wronged them there were damages, you must compensate them accordingly.  Then, and only then, will you be forgiven.

What would the expected standards be?  Is it morally acceptable to set aside God for a job?  What about when you retire and return to the church?  Do you somehow have a special prayer to say so God will forgive you, even though your victims don't have to?  

To me there is nothing else about setting the church aside for a career could mean, but the commission of immoral and unethical conduct.  What else could there be?  Does that make it any mor right if no one is harmed and it's just immoral or unethical conduct?

As much as it is ideal to be in church every Sunday, the world we live in doesn't allow for it.  Imagine the chaos that would occur if it did.  Firefighters, police and emergency medical staff, the list of jobs that are required by the world 7 days a week is massive.  To think that everyone can get to church every Sunday and it is unethical if they don't is very naive in my view.  I wouldn't judge a father or a mother for going to work on Sunday, especially if the job they are doing is vital to keep the society we live in running smoothly.  They need to look after their family, I don't think a loving God would judge them for that.

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2 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

As much as it is ideal to be in church every Sunday, the world we live in doesn't allow for it.  Imagine the chaos that would occur if it did.  Firefighters, police and emergency medical staff, the list of jobs that are required by the world 7 days a week is massive.  To think that everyone can get to church every Sunday and it is unethical if they don't is very naive in my view.  I wouldn't judge a father or a mother for going to work on Sunday, especially if the job they are doing is vital to keep the society we live in running smoothly.  They need to look after their family, I don't think a loving God would judge them for that.

For the record, LDS folks/culture do acknowledge the fact that some services are needed on Sunday and some folks do have to work those days.  My dad, for example, works in a hospital and hence has to work majority of Sundays because people there need medical care.  No one has any problem with this whatsoever.  My dad attends when he can, and everyone is happy to have him there when he's there.  He gets his days of rest / scripture study on the days he has off.

 For another example: I once worked a miserable retail job that was the only job I could get, and required me to work Sundays.  It wasn't ideal, but it was that or be unemployed.  So I came when I could, usually coming to an earlier ward for Sacrament Meeting before heading to the job.  Again, not ideal, but everyone was happy to have me when I could be there.   Now that I have a new job and set my own schedule, I do try really hard to not work Sundays to spend time in worship and be with family.  Unexpectedly, it's actually my non-LDS husband that's the biggest proponent of "Sunday is your day off!  Leave the work till Monday!" because he loves and needs the restful family (and he hates how I turn into an absolute bear when I don't get my batteries charged).

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1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

For the record, LDS folks/culture do acknowledge the fact that some services are needed on Sunday and some folks do have to work those days.  My dad, for example, works in a hospital and hence has to work majority of Sundays because people there need medical care.  No one has any problem with this whatsoever.  My dad attends when he can, and everyone is happy to have him there when he's there.  He gets his days of rest / scripture study on the days he has off.

 For another example: I once worked a miserable retail job that was the only job I could get, and required me to work Sundays.  It wasn't ideal, but it was that or be unemployed.  So I came when I could, usually coming to an earlier ward for Sacrament Meeting before heading to the job.  Again, not ideal, but everyone was happy to have me when I could be there.   Now that I have a new job and set my own schedule, I do try really hard to not work Sundays to spend time in worship and be with family.  Unexpectedly, it's actually my non-LDS husband that's the biggest proponent of "Sunday is your day off!  Leave the work till Monday!" because he loves and needs the restful family (and he hates how I turn into an absolute bear when I don't get my batteries charged).

I didn't for a second think the OPs opinion of working on Sundays was the LDS church opinion, I was of the understanding that is was her own opinion, and my response was to her opinion.

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14 hours ago, Blackmarch said:

?
scheduling is not exempt from morality.
if the dismissal of mormon ethics and morality is justifiable for a situation then how much better is it when ethics and morality is kept for that situation?

At least the money you make while working during chrch is legal, thus moral.  There are times I don't go to church because of the physical pain I endure.  Sometimes the pain meds don't do their job.  Or I may be ill.  Should I come to Sacrament if I have pnuemonia?  The flu?  Absolutely not.  If I have family in from out of state, would God be offended that I spent the day with them, instead of church?  I don't think so.  But...how does my scheduling affect others?

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On 9/3/2018 at 11:30 PM, pwrfrk said:

Precisely. 

To help Carborendum and others, it's not a matter of "I had to skip out on paying tithing because of...(insert reason)" or "I didn't go to church because of...(insert reason)".  While those could be ethics issues, in the extreme, they affect no one, thus in my opinion, that's something between you and Heavenly Father.  Let me give an old, old example.

Many years ago, and we're talking back in the 80's & 90's, I was young and in good shape, and having been raised on a small "hobby" farm in a farming community, I knew how to pick, drive tractor, lots of stuff (really don't want to go into all the details IOW).  But once I turned 18, the farmers preferred hiring illegal aliens.  And we went to the same ward. 

I asked the Bishop about it and he said "they have to do what they do because it's hard work and they have to make a living."  Ok, so we're talking about putting aside the morals and ethics of being Mormon, so one can make a buck or two.  The work performed isn't the issue.  Whether or not I could get a job is not the issue.  What is the issue is, in that case, hiring illegal aliens so one (the farmer) would have more money coming in, but excusing it saying it's so he can make a living.

Okay.  Now let us turn this around.

Now you have a disabled vet fresh from the sandbox.  He needs money.  So he robs a bank.  It's now ok, because the farmer hired illegal aliens so he could make a living.  But wait!  Now we have this young coule, in their late teens, dropped out of high school because of drugs.  Can't find work, so...they start dealing drugs to their friends.  But that's ok, because the farmer and the vet had to break the law as well so they could make a living. 

In all three cases they ignored gospel.  They put the church aside for their own immoral and unethical reasons.  Is that acceptable, since it's to make a living?  Would it be more acceptable if they paid not on taxes on their income, but tithing and fast offerings?

I say that in all three cases it's not acceptable or excusable.  Both immoral (against the unwritten standards) and unethical (against the written standards and laws).

Am I the only one?  Strangely, it's starting to feel that way.

You hit the nail on the head. We think it normal for an attorney to have 4 cases and charging all 4 coming and going for his travel time to where all the hearings are. We think nothing about the medical field falsifying bills to insurance because network discounts are eating their profit. We think nothing about insurance making a practice of underpaying on repairs if they think since claimants have no loan and may choose, legally, not to repair if it doesn't affect the functionality of the car.  We think nothing of a law officer doing something not legal to catch a dope dealer. In every case we sell our souls, choosing occupational success ahead of keeping church standards  The prophet preaches to all but too large a segment of us don't apply it to ourselves. The elect are going to be attacked more than anyone in these latter days. We are all just people who are that will be tempted to abandon Church standards. If you aren't ever tempted there's a chance you are already lost.

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On 9/4/2018 at 10:07 PM, VelvetShadow said:

As much as it is ideal to be in church every Sunday, the world we live in doesn't allow for it.  Imagine the chaos that would occur if it did.  Firefighters, police and emergency medical staff, the list of jobs that are required by the world 7 days a week is massive.  To think that everyone can get to church every Sunday and it is unethical if they don't is very naive in my view.  I wouldn't judge a father or a mother for going to work on Sunday, especially if the job they are doing is vital to keep the society we live in running smoothly.  They need to look after their family, I don't think a loving God would judge them for that.

No, I do not see scheduling as a moral or ethical issue, as I explained in response to Blackmarch.

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  • pam unfeatured this topic

I think we can worry too much about little things. I know a man who gave up his membership because. The stake president knowingly made false statements as an attorney against him in his divorce. I am friends with the attorney but every thing will be answered for unless there is full repentance. I am glad that I am not the judge. This was not a little thing. If you speed at any one is hurt the same applies. Even if it is our job to lie the same applies. Christ made it plain what we do positive or negative towards others it matters. I frankly believe the same about the word of wisdom. If it doesn't hurt others, just don't pray to God to heal self inflicted illness. I don't think there will be eternal consequences if it doesn't hurt anyone else. Joseph Smith brought liquor to prisoners because they were so miserable. I don't need to worry about any one but me with such things. I keep the WOW but if I had cancer I might feel it is okay to use marijuana.

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