richard7900

Sacred garment policy: A breach of law?

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Hi. I'm an endowed member of the church, and in good standing within the church. But for quite some time have only been attending infrequently. I don't have a temple recommend, because I've been thinking it's a bit pointless having one at the moment if it's not going to be used -  whilst I'm not attending church much. At least that's been my thinking. I've worn my garments ever since I received my endowment back in the 1980's.  Usually a friend of mine purchases my garments at the Chorley temple when she attends. But, there has been a change and the garment I need (Long -John thermal type) I will have to buy thru store.lds.org.  But, there is a problem: I myself cannot purchase garments for myself, because I don't have a temple recommend. This makes me feel alienated actually. But, is this policy of refusing to sell garments to otherwise worthy members of the church legal? or is it a breach of law? Specifically EU law. Thanks.

P.S. I assume I understand the policy correctly.

Edited by richard7900

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3 hours ago, richard7900 said:

I don't have a temple recommend, because I've been thinking it's a bit pointless having one at the moment

Appears you have now found at least one "point" to having a bit of a "pointless" recommend.
If you are a member in "good standing" why not just simply go get your recommend and purchase your own garments rather than attempt to find some legal EU "gotcha" on the Church?

Breach of law - seriously? Perhaps a breach of common sense, and not on the part of the Church.

 

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I expect or hope for serious and honest comments and discussion. Discussion and replies  that are not rooted in insufferable presumptions, mocking, or defensiveness on the part of church members who cannot avoid being so out of their fears, or a feeling they have to " push back" based on a rash conclusion that the  church is being attacked.   I'm not attacking the church in bringing up this issue.

Edited by richard7900

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3 minutes ago, richard7900 said:

I expect or hope for serious and honest comments

Your hope and expectation has been granted. My serious and honest comment is posted above. ^^^  You are welcome.

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2 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Your hope and expectation has been granted. My serious and honest comment is posted above. ^^^  You are welcome.

Seems you think your comments need to be pretty much about point-scoring and judging others and/or getting the better of others.  Putting people down etc. Oh, well, fairly typical perhaps in this day and age. I think you need to contemplate are you on a firm foundation or a sandy one.

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5 hours ago, richard7900 said:

Hi. I'm an endowed member of the church, and in good standing within the church. But for quite some time have only been attending infrequently. I don't have a temple recommend, because I've been thinking it's a bit pointless having one at the moment if it's not going to be used -  whilst I'm not attending church much. At least that's been my thinking. I've worn my garments ever since I received my endowment back in the 1980's.  Usually a friend of mine purchases my garments at the Chorley temple when she attends. But, there has been a change and the garment I need (Long -John thermal type) I will have to buy thru store.lds.org.  But, there is a problem: I myself cannot purchase garments for myself, because I don't have a temple recommend. This makes me feel alienated actually. But, is this policy of refusing to sell garments to otherwise worthy members of the church legal? or is it a breach of law? Specifically EU law. Thanks.

P.S. I assume I understand the policy correctly.

Nope. You can still buy garments with an expired recommend. Also when purchasing online you just need your membership number so they can verify that you had your endowments.

You seem very grumpy for some reason and you don't "Need" long John thermal type, you WANT long John thermal type. Unless you are trying to emulate the original garment pattern. Which, by the way, also only used three frontal ties to close them. All current garment patterns are holy and authorized by the Lord. Even the tight athletic cuts. 

Anyway, I hope things get better with your buying situation.  :) 

 

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Richard, the Church is clear on this - you are only allowed to purchase garments if you hold a current temple recommend.  [ETA: It appears I may be wrong about this.  Perhaps someone else can add a second opinion.]

You cannot judge yourself worthy of purchasing garments from the Church.  Church representatives are the ones who judge you worthy of this privilege.  While your standing may (or may not) be good for an unendowed member, endowed members are held to a higher standard.  That you don't attend Sunday meetings much (apparently strictly by your own choice1) and that you don't intend to attend the temple or have a current recommend both negate the claim to being an endowed member in good standing.  Members in good standing attend their Sunday meetings (a requirement for temple worthiness), partake of the Sacrament (to renew covenants and testify of their willingness to follow the Savior, etc.), and to serve and fellowship with one another.

To be a member in good standing is not simply to refrain from certain things; it also requires one to do certain things - activity in the Church is one of those things.

IMO, your friend was wrong to purchase garments on your behalf when you did not have a current recommend.  Don't put her into any further difficult situations.  Go to Church.  Meet with your bishop.  Counsel with him on how best to work things out so that you can renew your temple recommend.  We are counseled to hold a temple recommend even if logistics keep us from being able to attend the temple at present.

1If you are not attending Church due to reasons beyond your control, you should counsel with your bishop about this to see what can be done, and if nothing can be done, this may not exclude you from having a temple recommend.

Edited by zil

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Guest MormonGator
5 hours ago, richard7900 said:

Hi. I'm an endowed member of the church, and in good standing within the church. But for quite some time have only been attending infrequently. I don't have a temple recommend, because I've been thinking it's a bit pointless having one at the moment if it's not going to be used -  whilst I'm not attending church much. At least that's been my thinking. I've worn my garments ever since I received my endowment back in the 1980's.  Usually a friend of mine purchases my garments at the Chorley temple when she attends. But, there has been a change and the garment I need (Long -John thermal type) I will have to buy thru store.lds.org.  But, there is a problem: I myself cannot purchase garments for myself, because I don't have a temple recommend. This makes me feel alienated actually. But, is this policy of refusing to sell garments to otherwise worthy members of the church legal? or is it a breach of law? Specifically EU law. Thanks.

P.S. I assume I understand the policy correctly.

Remember that most of us (90%) are Americans and none of us are experts in EU law.  @An Investigator might be able to help you-she's from the UK. 
 

Good luck my brother. 

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From the lds.store.org website:

Q. What information do I need to provide in order to purchase garments?
A.
You must be endowed or have a signed and activated temple recommend to receive your endowment before you may purchase garments. Your LDS Account will verify this information and permit you to purchase garments. "

I'm not wanting to buy ceremonial garments, which is a different kettle of fish.

I am an endowed member. So, I should be able to purchase my own garments. But the "Add to basket" button on the store site is sort of greyed-out.

I think this is an issue between a man and his Maker.  It's my decision whether to wear my garments or not, not the church. It appears.

Edited by richard7900

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35 minutes ago, richard7900 said:

From the lds.store.org website:

Q. What information do I need to provide in order to purchase garments?
A.
You must be endowed or have a signed and activated temple recommend to receive your endowment before you may purchase garments. Your LDS Account will verify this information and permit you to purchase garments. "

I'm not wanting to buy ceremonial garments, which is a different kettle of fish.

I am an endowed member. So, I should be able to purchase my own garments. But the "Add to basket" button on the store site is sort of greyed-out.

I think this is an issue between a man and his Maker.  It's my decision whether to wear my garments or not, not the church. It appears.

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself. The only time you should not wear garments is if a leader tells you to not wear them. Even if you are actively sinning, wear them until you can go and confess. From there you will be advised and I believe the only reason you cannot wear garments is if you get excommunicated

 

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38 minutes ago, richard7900 said:

From the lds.store.org website:

Q. What information do I need to provide in order to purchase garments?
A.
You must be endowed or have a signed and activated temple recommend to receive your endowment before you may purchase garments. Your LDS Account will verify this information and permit you to purchase garments. "

I'm not wanting to buy ceremonial garments, which is a different kettle of fish.

I am an endowed member. So, I should be able to purchase my own garments. But the "Add to basket" button on the store site is sort of greyed-out.

I think this is an issue between a man and his Maker.  It's my decision whether to wear my garments or not, not the church. It appears.

The simple answer is if you are indeed worthy of a recommend... sit down with your bishop and stake president and declare it and get one.  That is the simplest and easiest answer to your problem... So why are you making it harder by trying to find a legal remedy to compel the church do it your way?

 

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27 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The simple answer is if you are indeed worthy of a recommend... sit down with your bishop and stake president and declare it and get one.  That is the simplest and easiest answer to your problem... So why are you making it harder by trying to find a legal remedy to compel the church do it your way?

 

The simple answer is that in order to purchase garments, you only need to be an endowed member. A  temple recommend. is not required. (Unless it is a recommend for your endowment).

Edited by richard7900

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4 minutes ago, richard7900 said:

The simple anser is that in order to purchase garments, you only need to be an endowed member. A  temple recommend. is not required. (unless it is a recommend for your endowment).

Then what's the problem?  Go order.  Online ordering always has some sort of "contact us" option.  Even if there's no local phone number, there are always other contact options...

UK and Ireland 00800 2950 2950

[email protected]

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4 minutes ago, richard7900 said:

The simple anser is that in order to purchase garments, you only need to be an endowed member. A  temple recommend. is not required. (unless it is a recommend for your endowment).

Then do so...  Issue closed.

But you can't...  so either there is a technical issue... which means you should be asking about tech support.

Or that is not really true.. in which case you should be contacting your local bishop.

Nowhere in this situation does getting a Lawyer and compel the church through legal means becomes the simple and easy answer...and yet that is where you went

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Hi richard,

So, there's nothing wrong with having a temple recommend, even if you don't use it.

Is there?  I mean, do you have some sort of problem keeping your temple recommend active?   It's a good opportunity to make an accounting to Christ's representative on earth.  Why not just go do it?

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16 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Hi richard,

So, there's nothing wrong with having a temple recommend, even if you don't use it.

Is there?  I mean, do you have some sort of problem keeping your temple recommend active?   It's a good opportunity to make an accounting to Christ's representative on earth.  Why not just go do it?

Are you supposed to stop wearing garments if your recommend has expired? 

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Once you are endowed, you are covenanted to wear your garments.  You can, therefore, buy garments from Church-approved stores.  Nothing else matters, not even a temple recommend.  An expired recommend does not release you from your covenant.  The only time you may not have garments is when the Bishop tells you not to wear garments.  If you can't get garments from the online store, use the Contact Us button and have somebody help you.

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In some countries, for some products, sellers are allowed, and in some cases, even required, to place conditions on the sale of what they sell and who they sell to, eg, guns, alcohol, enriched uranium and items of major cultural significance. If this principle is applied to temple garments, then of course the seller is allowed to place conditions on what they sell and who they sell to. As to whether Europe is one of those places where this principle applies, and whether garments are the type of thing that this principle could be applied to, I can't help you with that, but I think the principle of sellers being able to sell what they want to who they want, or not to, is fairly widespread. 

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When you go into online store you will be asked to sign in. IF you are not registered, then you will be prompted to do so. There you will be asked to enter your LDS membership number. If you don't know it, ask your Ward/Branch Clerk he will get it for you. Enter this number and you will them be allowed into the store. 

If you are Endowed, the church records will know this and you will be allowed into the restricted section of the online store - where you can purchase Ceremonial Clothing and garments. For a period of about two years I had an expired recommend, but I could still purchase garments, which I did. As soon as Hubby AND I were able to connect with both are Bishop and the
Stake President, we got our recommends renewed. For us, the delay was due to timing. Hubby having to work Sundays and the nights that the SP was available at Church.

For some reason, not having a valid recommend was as nerve racking/upsetting and stressful as when I was in hospital and they refused to let me wear my garments! I felt so spiritually UNPROTECTED - it felt akin to being publically nekked!

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On 6/29/2018 at 2:56 PM, MormonGator said:

Remember that most of us (90%) are Americans and none of us are experts in EU law.  @An Investigator might be able to help you-she's from the UK. 
 

Good luck my brother. 

Hi

You just need an account to purchase garments online, I minister to a less active sister who does this and I am based in the UK.   If you have any problems I am sure the Bishop will send a Brother to help you, you just need to give him a shout :)

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Have you checked thoroughly the shopping cart before worrying about that gray button? That store website has so many little details to completing an order that I always have to go find the one little thing (size, style, quantity, Etc) before the button lets me click it.

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On 6/29/2018 at 10:13 AM, richard7900 said:

From the lds.store.org website:

Q. What information do I need to provide in order to purchase garments?
A.
You must be endowed or have a signed and activated temple recommend to receive your endowment before you may purchase garments. Your LDS Account will verify this information and permit you to purchase garments. "

I'm not wanting to buy ceremonial garments, which is a different kettle of fish.

I am an endowed member. So, I should be able to purchase my own garments. But the "Add to basket" button on the store site is sort of greyed-out.

I think this is an issue between a man and his Maker.  It's my decision whether to wear my garments or not, not the church. It appears.

I always have a problem using this website or almost always. I usually have to phone customer service to complete the order. Customer service cannot explain the issue. I try to do it on line a couple of times and then I give up and phone. It’s not you but the computer system. 

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