Satan's introduction of evil into the world


theplains
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On 7/8/2018 at 7:34 PM, Anddenex said:

No other command given by God has the caveat of "thou mayest choose for thyself." Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife. Thou shalt not kill/murder.

This is not stated but implied.  We are free to choose for ourselves whether to commit adultery, etc, or not.
Your belief concludes that God really wanted and needed Adam and Eve to disobey Him so they could begin
their progression.

Modern revelation does explain that Eve's eyes were open before giving the fruit to Adam



Where?

Pleasure is not always synonymous with "joy."  Also, do remember, your belief of scriptural support in scripture for Adam and Eve experiencing/feeling pleasure is coming from a person whose eyes are opened, not from the eyes of someone in a state of innocence. What scriptures are you referring to?

Give me one example where pleasure does not bring joy?

As for Adam and Eve, they felt pleasure at the sight of the trees God had created (Genesis 2:9 - And out of
the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food). Also, Eve
experienced pleasure when looking at the forbidden fruit.

If we still don't agree, then would you explain how they felt pleasure without misery?  What is the opposite
of pleasure?

Jim

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1 minute ago, theplains said:

Not really. No one forced Adam and Eve to disobey God.  They were given the freedom to choose. And they
had plenty of other trees for food.

Jim

If someone is beguiled (fooled); I do not believe for a second that they exercised actual freedom of choice.  I find the concept that a kind and just G-d would hold anyone accountable in ignorance or when they have been beguiled very repugnant and an expression contrary to understanding of freedom, agency, liberty or even capable of realizing what is good and what is really very foolish, stupid, sick, wrong and evil.  I find your insistence that someone beguiled is no different than someone deliberately disobedient - to be of character that I cannot properly express on this forum.  Sorry but I do not believe in any such G-d to be worthy of worship.

If you think you should be sentenced to death as your just reward for ever being fooled - then perhaps you have a point.  But if you expect mercy for yourself making a mistake and condemn Adam and Eve - then you are worshiping a false inconsistent G-d.

 

The Traveler

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17 hours ago, theplains said:

This is not stated but implied.  We are free to choose for ourselves whether to commit adultery, etc, or not.
Your belief concludes that God really wanted and needed Adam and Eve to disobey Him so they could begin
their progression.

Where?

Give me one example where pleasure does not bring joy?

As for Adam and Eve, they felt pleasure at the sight of the trees God had created (Genesis 2:9 - And out of
the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food). Also, Eve
experienced pleasure when looking at the forbidden fruit.

If we still don't agree, then would you explain how they felt pleasure without misery?  What is the opposite
of pleasure?

Jim

This is not stated but implied.

This would be incorrect. Moral agency is implied, but not the same as with the garden experience. The Father explicitly tells them they can choose for themselves.

Your belief concludes that God really wanted and needed Adam and Eve to disobey Him so they could begin their progression.

This would be incorrect also. Our belief specifies that God knew in order for us to become more like him the fall needed to occur, not that he wanted Adam and Eve to disobey. We do not know if Adam and Eve remained and continued to learn from the Father and Son what knowledge they would have been given. This is unknown.

As a Father myself, I have counseled against certain things while giving the caveat that they may choose for themselves. I have also counseled, with stronger commitment (with no caveat) you are not able to do this.

What is clearr is that there are items that haven't yet been fully revealed. Those which haven't, will one day be revealed and known. We are all welcome to our personal interpretations (as you are giving), as long as we recognize they are personal.

Where?

The temple.

Give me one example where pleasure does not bring joy?

I am honestly surprised you are asking this question. This should have been something you could have come up with by taking the time through simple thought. I will provide an extreme example to make it clear. When a male rapes a female he isn't experiencing joy. He definitely is experiencing pleasure for himself. If a person thinks he is experiencing "joy" then this individual clearly has a misunderstanding of what joy is.

Friends in my high school often experienced pleasure, not joy. I am sure you are intelligent enough to think through this. There are people who are experiencing pleasure, not joy everyday. We have marital relationships, whose relationship is on the rocks, and they don't experience "joy" through intimacy anymore -- it is a choice of pleasure at that point. As I have heard couples say, "We have sex because it is pleasurable, and that is it." They have sex to have sex for pleasure because it is pleasureable, not because they experience joy or happiness through it.  Ever heard the term "friends with benefits." I haven't met many people in that situation who are experiencing true joy, they definitely experience pleasure though.

I have watched sunsets that are pleasing to my eye, without bringing joy to my heart. I have also experienced sunsets and mountain views that are pleasing to my eye that also bring joy to my heart. I have watched my wife light up to a sunset, her countenance increases, and she experiences pleasure and joy, while I look at the same scenario and only experience something nice to look at.

This really isn't hard to come up with examples of pleasure verses joy. I am sure you already saw this, so not sure why the question was asked.

As for Adam and Eve, they felt pleasure at the sight of the trees God had created (Genesis 2:9 - And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food). Also, Eve experienced pleasure when looking at the forbidden fruit. If we still don't agree, then would you explain how they felt pleasure without misery?  What is the opposite of pleasure?

Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence similar to that of a child's innocence. As to their maturity and level of innocence we don't know. There is a difference between experiencing and "knowing" pleasure, misery, good, evil, life, death. A child who is in a state of innocence may experience joy, pleasure, happiness, but do not have the knowledge of what they are experiencing. I have seen it in mine own children. I have to tell them what they are experiencing as they don't have the knowledge yet to explain it.

They felt "pleasure." Sure. Did they "know" pleasure? We have modern scripture that specifies the following, "they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin." The key word is "knowledge" in comparison to "experience." In light of this, we know Adam and Eve did not "know" joy or misery until the fall and their eyes were opened. I have seen children who are angry say they are happy. Why? Because they noticed how their parents would say they were happy, and would also see them angry. They confused anger with happiness. They experienced the feeling but did not have the right knowledge to express it, thus they did not know, they only experienced and felt.

As to my current understanding, pain is the opposite to pleasure. Joy is the opposite to misery.

Our interpretation and what we know stems from eyes which have been opened. If our eyes were not opened, how would we be viewing life? I assume it would be very different.

 

 

 

Edited by Anddenex
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On 7/11/2018 at 4:12 AM, FunkyTown said:

 

A heroin addict shooting up in a dirty alleyway pining away for a family, job and life he has abandoned for a cheap and pleasurable 'high'.

 

Pleasure - Not joy.

 

The heroin addict feels pleasure (joy) on the way up.  Then misery on the way down.

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On 7/11/2018 at 11:03 AM, Anddenex said:

As to my current understanding, pain is the opposite to pleasure. Joy is the opposite to misery.

Our interpretation and what we know stems from eyes which have been opened. If our eyes were not opened, how would we be viewing life? I assume it would be very different.

How were Adam and Eve able to feel pleasure without first knowing pain?

What emotions do you believe Adam and Eve felt towards each other and towards God (as they worshipped
Him) before the fall in the Garden?

Thanks,
Jim

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6 hours ago, theplains said:

The heroin addict feels pleasure (joy) on the way up.  Then misery on the way down.

This stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of joy and pleasure.

 

Pleasure is mere sensual gratification while joy is a fundamental happiness implying contentment with the state of the world.

 

A food addict can eat a pie while feeling shame. Same with a sex addict. That is pleasure and not joy.

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13 hours ago, theplains said:

How were Adam and Eve able to feel pleasure without first knowing pain?

What emotions do you believe Adam and Eve felt towards each other and towards God (as they worshipped
Him) before the fall in the Garden?

Thanks,
Jim

Ok, it appears you enjoy circular arguments and aren't thoroughly reading my previous comments. If this continues (I don't mind if you disagree), this will be my last reply. Adam and Eve are able to feel and experience without knowing, just like children who are in a state of innocence as previously provided. Children experience and feel all different emotions without knowing what they are feeling. It pretty clear from children how we can experience and feel without knowing what we are feeling. But you seem to have ignored this last part of my response and have continued a circular argument for whatever reason known to yourself.

We don't know of any emotions Adam and Eve felt toward each other or God, or that they knew what they were experiencing and how they were experiencing it. We do know from scripture that if they did not partake of the fruit they would not have known what has already previously been stated.

You for some reason continue to equate "feeling" with "knowing" and they aren't the same.

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13 hours ago, theplains said:

It's not a question of knowing the difference between good and evil. Its a question of whether you
want to obey God.

Those 2 sentences are the same.  Wanting to Obey God requires a Knowledge of Good when you factor in the most important gift of Free Agency.

Pleasure versus Joy are 2 very different things.  Joy is Good - it has a moral component.  Pleasure has no moral component.  The perfect example for this (easier to understand, I think, than the examples previously given, ie. heroin addiction, rape, sunsets, etc.) is Sexual Pleasure.  Sexual Pleasure has no moral component.  Sexual Pleasure is Sexual Joy ONLY under the Marital Covenant.  Pre-marital Sex, Adulterous Sex, Sex between the same gender are Sexual Pleasures and NOT Sexual Joy. 

The Plan of Salvation's purpose is so that Man may have Joy.  We come closer to Joy when we come closer to Christ who is our perfect exemplar.

Hope this helps.

Edited by anatess2
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

  The perfect example for this (easier to understand, I think, than the examples previously given, ie. heroin addiction, rape, sunsets, etc.) is Sexual Pleasure.  Sexual Pleasure has no moral component.  Sexual Pleasure is Sexual Joy ONLY under the Marital Covenant.  Pre-marital Sex, Adulterous Sex, Sex between the same gender are Sexual Pleasures and NOT Sexual Joy.

Sexual pleasure is a good example, "As I have heard couples say, "We have sex because it is pleasurable, and that is it." They have sex to have sex for pleasure because it is pleasureable, not because they experience joy or happiness through it.  Ever heard the term "friends with benefits." I haven't met many people in that situation who are experiencing true joy, they definitely experience pleasure though," which was already given. ;)

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15 hours ago, theplains said:

It's not a question of knowing the difference between good and evil. Its a question of whether you
want to obey God.

 

The only possible way this concept could have any merit would be if there was some circumstance when obedience to G-d was not good.  The truth is - it is impossible to obey G-d without doing and being good.  And it is impossible to do good continually and be good continually in ignorance.  One can be evil in ignorance because a dimension of evil encompasses ignorance but to be and do good require knowledge.  This is in part why Jesus said, "None but G-d is good".  This statement by Jesus did not preclude those striving for good and attempting to be good - but give clear understanding that knowledge of truth is good and should never be counted as or taught as evil.

The true and living G-d is a G-d of truth and knowledge and cannot be obeyed or worshiped with lies and ignorance.  Indeed Jesus taught that to continue in his word (be obedient to G-d) that we will KNOW the truth and that truth (the knowledge of truth) will set us free.  Thus it is impossible to obey G-d and not gain a knowledge of good.  And because there is opposition in all things - it is impossible to gain a knowledge of good and remain ignorant (without knowledge) of evil.  --  Unless there is something I have missed that you have better understanding and experience of - if so please share it.  I am likely not the only one that would be interested.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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16 hours ago, theplains said:

How were Adam and Eve able to feel pleasure without first knowing pain?

What emotions do you believe Adam and Eve felt towards each other and towards God (as they worshipped
Him) before the fall in the Garden?

Thanks,
Jim

To answer this, we need to review a few points:

They were seeking wisdom and were beguiled into partaking of the forbidden fruit precisely because they lacked it. They believed God had forbidden it, but their naiveté was exploited. God provided redemption from that, which is not a blessing for disobedience but a blessing despite it. This is how God makes bad things (with or without moral implications) pale in light of good things.

God wanted them to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on His terms and timing, not before. Thus, He did not want them to proceed faster than He had planned, but He would not lose them if they did. This is evident in that the tree was designed to be pleasant to the sight and good for both food and wisdom, given the right context. Not knowing good and evil, Adam and Eve had exposure only to pleasant and unpleasant experiences, and they could act upon that level of agency (not moral agency, which brings joy or remorse of conscience).

The serpent was in the garden to serve God’s purposes in providing opposition so that agency could be exercised. It needn’t have been exercised by partaking of the forbidden fruit at that particular time, but it was allowed. The serpent could have simply instigated some other unpleasantness that did not involve Adam and Eve's choices yet informed their sense of "good" and "bad."

In our state, we want to obey God because we discern good and evil and choose good. Adam and Eve wanted to obey Him only because life was pleasant. Loving God in this world is joyous for us; loving Him in Eden was pleasant for Adam and Eve.

Edited by CV75
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