Failures of education


Traveler
 Share

Recommended Posts

I thought for fun I would list some critical areas that are not covered in our educational system – that have catastrophic effects on our society.  Feel free to comment, add your own or defend our educational system as the example to the world and all following generations.

The first great failure – personal finances; especially the devastating effect of debt.  With real life examples of how a person can purchase a house hold item on sale for $500 with credit and end up paying $20,000 in interest and penalties.   Also teach asset management allowing individuals to turn income extractions into income additions.  In short – how to manage income to maximize benefits.  Something more than a how to balance a bank account.

Second great failure – physical education.  More than exercise activity students should be taught cardio training and also nutrition (more than just food groups) and effects of various diets and exercise – under the notion that everyone follows a diet and exercise routine; so the purpose of education is to clearly understand the known and documented results of whatever diet and exercise one chooses.

Third great failure – religious education.  Most seem to think that religion should not be included in public or private education (with the exception of their own particular religious preference).  I have long believed that history cannot be understood or properly studied without understanding the religious context of the time and place of the historical events.  Most often religious beliefs are only taught with great prejudice and bias as an effort to color history or present religious thinking in a light not applicable to the historical events.  There is very little education that ties historic turns directly to specific religious beliefs.  I am convinced that very few are willing to study history and religion together as cause and effect.  That they have preconceived ideas of specific religious notions with no clue how such beliefs impact history.

 

The Traveler

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Traveler said:

The first great failure – personal finances

My high school calculus teacher agreed with you there. To partially address this, during the time between the AP test and the end of the school year, he assigned us all to prepare and give a presentation on a personal-finance-related topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ll add:

- Philosophy (intro levels), so many people don’t have the ability to think deeply about anything. Philosophy increases one’s ability of introspection and decision making.

- Work. Not sure how this would be “taught”, maybe if there could be some incentive to have children in school to work by their own choice for wages... but not sure how to keep that on the bounds of the law.

- Microsoft Excel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, SilentOne said:

My high school calculus teacher agreed with you there. To partially address this, during the time between the AP test and the end of the school year, he assigned us all to prepare and give a presentation on a personal-finance-related topic.

I would recommend a book titled "The Richest Man in Babylon".  The symbolism that many engage in concerning their personal finance is compared to "eating your own children" - may seem harsh but the reality of the point is spot on.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Fether said:

I’ll add:

- Philosophy (intro levels), so many people don’t have the ability to think deeply about anything. Philosophy increases one’s ability of introspection and decision making.

Not sure how to comment on this on the internet - I agree and disagree.  I will say that I think that number theory should be taught and not just arithmetic - and leave it at that.

Quote

- Work. Not sure how this would be “taught”, maybe if there could be some incentive to have children in school to work by their own choice for wages... but not sure how to keep that on the bounds of the law.

When I was a child - I got my first job (which was not chores at home) at age 8.  I was expected to pay for my own cloths and belongings (I was taught if I did not earn the money and purchase something - it was not mine - especially including gifts).  I was also expected to pay for my own entertainment - even when the whole family was on vacation.  As a side note - I was not allowed to ever complain about food I did not purchase with my own wage.  Today working scheduled set hours would be considered child abuse - I believe denying a child of such work opportunity is child abuse that will screw them up for the rest of their life.

Quote

- Microsoft Excel

This is like math - most of what you are taught you will not need in life - or so you will think until you need it in life.

Thanks

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've always looked askance at educators and public or institutional education in general.  Easy to do as a homeschooling dad.  Then one day I overheard a group of teachers talking amongst themselves.  One of them said something to the tune of "You know, if I fail at everything else, if I could just get them to understand the difference between their opinions on how things should be, and how things actually are, I'll call that success."  I realized I probably have more allies in the effort to educate my kids than I had previously assumed.

So yeah, I pretty much agree with Traveler's 3 failures, but I'll still be grateful for every genuine effort and caring educator out there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Not sure how to comment on this on the internet - I agree and disagree.  I will say that I think that number theory should be taught and not just arithmetic - and leave it at that.

The only philosophy we get growing up is is “Steve stupid”, “is Fred a freaky nerd”, and “is Sarah fat” And it is all discussed with fists and harsh words. I had one teacher that challenged us intellectually. We read “Heart of Darkness”, “Yellow Wallpaper”, some freaky old Italian horror mask story, and other mind boggling short stories that were to hard  wrap our minds around and find the meaning. We would have open discussions on different topics and symbolism’s we found. I still remember to this day a somewhat heated yet civilized debate over the question “does a jet-ski make you happy?”. Guys I had only ever seems swearing and bullying other kids were spitting out some of the best thought out aguements I had ever seen up to that point in my life as to why material things make people happy. Though I don’t think we need to be experts in Descarte or Aristotle, we should be challenged to exercise our mind more than just memorizing functions and grammatical law.

 

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

When I was a child - I got my first job (which was not chores at home) at age 8.  I was expected to pay for my own cloths and belongings (I was taught if I did not earn the money and purchase something - it was not mine - especially including gifts).  I was also expected to pay for my own entertainment - even when the whole family was on vacation.  As a side note - I was not allowed to ever complain about food I did not purchase with my own wage.  Today working scheduled set hours would be considered child abuse - I believe denying a child of such work opportunity is child abuse that will screw them up for the rest of their life.

What was your job??? What year was this? XD. I tried so stinking hard to get a job as soon as I could. Beyond mowing lawns, I couldn’t find work until 17 in my small town.

But I agree completely, though I feel just by the way people are, it would be hard to police parents from sending their kids to work ridiculous hours so they could spend more time in leisure. Or employees to hire masses of children and pay them below minimum wage. I love the idea but I can’t see it working at a national level. That’s why I think voluntary work for wages would be better, but that still wouldn’t get rid of the issue of a parent forcing their kid to work and bring home money for them.

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

This is like math - most of what you are taught you will not need in life - or so you will think until you need it in life.

I agree, but growing up, the only prescribed exposure I got to technology in school was typing class and Bill Nye the (not so) science guy. I actually learned greater computer and typing skills from playing video games than I did at school.

We should be taught excel for the same reason we read “Scarlet Letter”, learn to play basketball, or create chemical reactions in the lab.

But now that I think about it... maybe they are teaching it. I haven’t been to a grade school in 5 years

Edited by Fether
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Fether said:

The only philosophy we get growing up is is “Steve stupid”, “is Fred a freaky nerd”, and “is Sarah fat” And it is all discussed with fists and harsh words. I had one teacher that challenged us intellectually. We read “Heart of Darkness”, “Yellow Wallpaper”, some freaky old Italian horror mask story, and other mind boggling short stories that were to hard  wrap our minds around and find the meaning. We would have open discussions on different topics and symbolism’s we found. I still remember to this day a somewhat heated yet civilized debate over the question “does a jet-ski make you happy?”. Guys I had only ever seems swearing and bullying other kids were spitting out some of the best thought out aguements I had ever seen up to that point in my life as to why material things make people happy. Though I don’t think we need to be experts in Descarte or Aristotle, we should be challenged to exercise our mind more than just memorizing functions and grammatical law.

 

I can only say my experience with K-12 was different. 

Quote

What was your job??? What year was this? XD. I tried so stinking hard to get a job as soon as I could. Beyond mowing lawns, I couldn’t find work until 17 in my small town.

But I agree completely, though I feel just by the way people are, it would be hard to police parents from sending their kids to work ridiculous hours so they could spend more time in leisure. Or employees to hire masses of children and pay them below minimum wage. I love the idea but I can’t see it working at a national level. That’s why I think voluntary work for wages would be better, but that still wouldn’t get rid of the issue of a parent forcing their kid to work and bring home money for them.

My first job was door to door sales (cards and stationary).  I also worked seasonal jobs starting at age 9 - picking fruit and other farm work.  By age 10 I started delivering newspapers.  At age 14 I started my own businesses - carpet cleaning, painting, plumbing, electrical (maintenance - I grew up in Provo Utah and worked fixing up apartments).  By age 15 I added office work - this was my first job where I was paid an hourly wage.  At age 16 I became a certified welder then at 17 I joined the army as a combat engineering welder.  At age 19 I obtained a special release from the army to serve an LDS mission (which I paid for myself).  I paid for my own college without any financial assistance from my parents - I did not think such a thing was moral.  In my home I had daily chores for which I was not paid.  We grew and canned most of our food.  We raised chickens and rabbits for meat - which was supplemented with hunting and fishing.  I was also expected to volunteer work at the church welfare farms.  I was born in 1946 in a wealthy upper class family.

Quote

I agree, but growing up, the only prescribed exposure I got to technology in school was typing class and Bill Nye the (not so) science guy. I actually learned greater computer and typing skills from playing video games than I did at school.

I remember the first TV in our neighborhood - which really was not that interesting to me.  I became acquainted with technology trying to launch something into outer space.  This insane desire drove me into physics and science.  I was never successful but I learned a lot on my own.

Quote

We should be taught excel for the same reason we read “Scarlet Letter”, learn to play basketball, or create chemical reactions in the lab.

I have one brother with a photographic memory and is a certified genius.  I was the black sheep in my family - everywhere else I went in the world I was considered exceptionally smart.  Regardless of whatever I did - it was never enough for my parents.

Quote

But now that I think about it... maybe they are teaching it. I haven’t been to a grade school in 5 years

Spending time with my grandchildren has convinced me that I grew up in a much better era.  I am convinced that both education for kids as well as what is expected of them in society is leaving our children with great disadvantages in life.  Obviously it children today were taught to think rationally 99% of our social problems and differences would be solved.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am convinced that both education for kids as well as what is expected of them in society is leaving our children with great disadvantages in life.  Obviously it children today were taught to think rationally 99% of our social problems and differences would be solved.

Well I am sitting pretty on the glorious Millenial generation so I don’t have too much to compare against, but from what I see of myself and my generation, I completely agree.

I look back in my life and I don’t have a clue of how I could have even sought out the opportunities you had.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

The biggest problem with our educational system is that it teaches kids to feel, not think. Susan and Steve have confused "feeling" with "thinking". It's a serious problem.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/10/2018 at 4:54 PM, Traveler said:

The first great failure – personal finances; especially the devastating effect of debt.  With real life examples of how a person can purchase a house hold item on sale for $500 with credit and end up paying $20,000 in interest and penalties.   Also teach asset management allowing individuals to turn income extractions into income additions.  In short – how to manage income to maximize benefits.  Something more than a how to balance a bank account.

I'm glad I did get some training in understanding interest rates in highschool and always understood that a a higher credit limit simply meant I could borrow more that I'd have to pay back and not that I had more money... which is sadly the state I've observed others in - they actually believe by increasing their credit limit they are wealthier.

It also reminds of a conversation I had recently with a salesperson from my phone company who wanted me to buy their TV service as well. He kept telling me that I would be saving lots of money by getting this TV service and couldn't seem to understand the concept that unless my bill actually decreased from what I'm already paying that I would not be saving any money. The deal he was trying to sell me on still would have increased my monthly bill by $50, which in no way saves me money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

It also reminds of a conversation I had recently with a salesperson from my phone company who wanted me to buy their TV service as well. He kept telling me that I would be saving lots of money by getting this TV service and couldn't seem to understand the concept that unless my bill actually decreased from what I'm already paying that I would not be saving any money. The deal he was trying to sell me on still would have increased my monthly bill by $50, which in no way saves me money.

Well, obviously if you aren't getting whatever package he's trying to sell you, you are getting all the individual components separately. It's not like anybody could ever live without access to every television service in existence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

I'm glad I did get some training in understanding interest rates in highschool and always understood that a a higher credit limit simply meant I could borrow more that I'd have to pay back and not that I had more money... which is sadly the state I've observed others in - they actually believe by increasing their credit limit they are wealthier.

It also reminds of a conversation I had recently with a salesperson from my phone company who wanted me to buy their TV service as well. He kept telling me that I would be saving lots of money by getting this TV service and couldn't seem to understand the concept that unless my bill actually decreased from what I'm already paying that I would not be saving any money. The deal he was trying to sell me on still would have increased my monthly bill by $50, which in no way saves me money.

 

I learned my understanding of finance from my father, who learned it from his father-in-law that learned it from his father.  It may go back farther but this is the extent of my personal understanding.  One note at this point – my great-grandfather was the executive secretary (similar to CEO) of one of the LDS Church’s more successful United Order operations.   I also know that many of the principles I was taught were part of the principles my great-grandfather utilized while overseeing his United Order calling.

I will use the example of one of my sons that a few years back (he and his wife) decided to rethink their finances.  My son has a very good job and makes a six figure income but he also attended a very prestigious college where he racked up $200,000 in student loans.  They had been trying to pay off student loans but were having a hard time making headway with the tremendous debt.   My son had had several talks with my father before my father passed.  He came to me for advice and help.  We worked a plan together.   At the time they had 3 children under 6.  They were renting a small two bedroom apt.

The plan we came up with was that they would move from their apartment into our home so they would not have to pay rent - then to play less on the student loans and save up a down payment on a home.  He and his wife decided to sell one car and he would mostly commute by bicycle – this eliminated a car payment which meant that they only had the student loan debt.  Six months later he found a fine home that he qualified for – those that have gone through this process realize that you can qualify to borrow more money than you can possibly pay back.  We decided I would loan him some extra so he would not have pay mortgage  insurance.  He purchased the house – then according to the plan he moved his family into the basement and rented the upstairs to cover the mortgage.  They were now living – in essence – rent free and mortgage free in their own home.

But life was not so fun.  The basement needed remodeling which was most inconvenient while living in the space – but they did it.  The nursery was placed in a little room under the stairs – aka Harry Potter.   He learned plumbing and electrical as I helped him with the remodel.  A three bedroom apt was created but he needed one bedroom for an office.  It was a difficult sacrifice but they were willing.

One year later he discovered he could qualify to buy another house.  He and his stay at home wife found a house in St George that they could buy new and make changes according to their specifications.  He now knew a lot more about electrical and plumbing so he and I worked together to finish the unfinished basement which he was able to rent out to cover the mortgage on the new home – the upstairs he set up for AirB&B (or whatever it is called).  He was able to create quite a cash flow besides living free himself.

Last month (June) he paid off the last of his student loans.  Plus he can finely purchase the car of his dreams (Tesla) and pay cash and still have enough to purchase another home.  Or he could quit his job and just live off his investment.  They decided that living a simple life is a lot more fun.  They decided to remain in the basement despite that they now have 4 children all in one bedroom.   He is keeping his job.  Their plan now is to get the youngest into pre-school and send the wife back to school – and in essence just enjoy life.  This little lady of his, had become a wonder – from a high school drop out to very with it elegant lady that has finished her high school and has already been accepted to the U of U but trying to rediscover what she wants out of life. 

In talking with my son and his wife the other day – they expressed that life, work, church and community take on a whole different level of fun and enjoyment when there is no debt.  Jokingly my son said, “Why didn’t you teach me this earlier?”  It took this son 30 years to catch on.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/10/2018 at 5:54 PM, Traveler said:

The first great failure – personal finances; especially the devastating effect of debt.  With real life examples of how a person can purchase a house hold item on sale for $500 with credit and end up paying $20,000 in interest and penalties.   Also teach asset management allowing individuals to turn income extractions into income additions.  In short – how to manage income to maximize benefits.  Something more than a how to balance a bank account.

Don't even get me started.  Half the people I know who are struggling under mountains of debt are still trading in the car and taking on a higher payment every 3-4 years.  5-6 years in a used, reliable beater bought for less than 2-3 of their monthly payments would save them enough to pay off a significant portion of their other debts, but they have even bigger mountains of excuses for why they "need" a new car.  Same for cable; how about getting some exercise or a second job in your TV time instead?

On 7/10/2018 at 5:54 PM, Traveler said:

Second great failure – physical education.  More than exercise activity students should be taught cardio training and also nutrition (more than just food groups) and effects of various diets and exercise – under the notion that everyone follows a diet and exercise routine; so the purpose of education is to clearly understand the known and documented results of whatever diet and exercise one chooses.

Heck, just get them through some simple concepts like "if you can carry on a normal conversation, you're not getting a workout."  I pass quite a few fat women on the local park trail constantly jabbering on the phone, and no doubt wondering why they're still just as fat as they've been for the 6-7 years I've been passing them on that trail.  There's also an LDS woman on one of the regional singles groups who has been shilling for one "miracle" supplement after another on her FB page for the 6 years I've known her, and she's still around the same 250 pounds as when we first met.  Meanwhile, I have a friend who dropped 14 sizes in 18 months, largely by replacing all but four hours a week of her TV (and unhealthy snacking) time with serious workouts, and watching a heart rate monitor to be sure she was constantly pushing her limits.  No fad diets, no drugs other than aspirin and naproxen, no magic superfoods, no surgery; just learning what she was eating and paying attention to how many calories she was burning.  Now she's a personal trainer and nutrition coach.

On 7/11/2018 at 1:42 AM, Fether said:

- Philosophy (intro levels), so many people don’t have the ability to think deeply about anything. Philosophy increases one’s ability of introspection and decision making.

Too many just don't have the desire to think deeply about anything, nor will they, as that's too much like real work.

On 7/11/2018 at 1:42 AM, Fether said:

- Work. Not sure how this would be “taught”, maybe if there could be some incentive to have children in school to work by their own choice for wages... but not sure how to keep that on the bounds of the law.

I was part of an interesting conversation with a retired Marine a while back.  He was explaining to someone about landing a job as an office assistant in a very formal office just after he got out of the Corps.  "Nobody cared what time I got out of bed, or how long I took to shower or eat breakfast, as long as I made it in by 8AM, in a suit I got to pick out, carrying a portfolio that weighed less than than a couple full rifle mags.  Then I only had to carry paperwork and the occasional 30-40 pound file box back and forth in a safe, air conditioned office complex for eight hours and the rest of my day was mine.  I thought I was a complete slacker until they promoted me three times in my second year."  They also held a full time spot for him while he worked part time to get a degree, and now he's a regional executive with the same company.  They've told him his veteran status had nothing to do with his advancement, but that the work ethic he came out of it with was the top deciding factor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not all the examples given are failure in education...  Many appear to be a failure in discipline (aka the ability to postpone a short term desire for a long term gain)

For example it is not hard to learn that wealth is gained when you spend less then you earn and that weight is lost when you burn more calories then you consume.

If you did not know then then congrats I just educated you... failure averted...

Except it is not.  One needs more then an education one needs the discipline to apply it long term...   All the education in the world means nothing without the will to apply it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Not all the examples given are failure in education...  Many appear to be a failure in discipline (aka the ability to postpone a short term desire for a long term gain)

For example it is not hard to learn that wealth is gained when you spend less then you earn and that weight is lost when you burn more calories then you consume.

If you did not know then then congrats I just educated you... failure averted...

Except it is not.  One needs more then an education one needs the discipline to apply it long term...   All the education in the world means nothing without the will to apply it.

 

 

 

I have attempted to demonstrate failures of education.  Two failures I highlighted are shaping opinions and causing misunderstandings.   Many think they understand finance and economics.   Almost without exception most of the individuals I know that have economic problems do not know the difference between simple and compound interest.  Though the concept is simple to explain – there is no educated person that would choose compound interest when money is available with just simple interest.

I also mentioned religious education – especially as religion applies to history – and this includes history currently happening.  Anciently – and this includes Judeo-Christian and Pagan religions.  Compound interest was considered usury (filthy lucre) and evil.  Islam teaches compound interest as the #1 sign of Satan and societies under Satanic control.  Islam forbids compound interest.  To them it is a sin weather one pays or charges compound interest and it is why the USA is taught of in many sectors of Islam as “The Great Satan.”  I honestly think if education taught real life economics and honest insights into religion – more people (a lot more) would have a much better idea why devout peaceful Muslims are turned into terrorists while living (experiencing) in the middle of all the wonderful opportunities available with revolving (compound interest) credit, in the USA.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The failure of education is in inculcating the idea into parents' heads that the schoolroom is the only place where children learn finances, physical education, religious education, etc.

It still boggles my mind that people believe everything a child needs is taught in the schoolroom.  No dudes.  The schoolroom is JUST ONE TOOL in the parental arsenal of raising children.

Edited by anatess2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The failure of education is in inculcating the idea into parents' heads that the schoolroom is the only place where children learn finances, physical education, religious education, etc.

It still boggles my mind that people believe everything a child needs is taught in the schoolroom.  No dudes.  The schoolroom is JUST ONE TOOL in the parental arsenal of raising children.

 

With what little experience I have had teaching – student teaching in college, and in church callings – I would not only agree that the first place of education is the home.  But I would add something; in situations where there are problems with students the #1 cause of the problem begins with the parents in the home.  This may not always be the case – just the most likely.

However, I specifically want to address problems (for whatever reason) with the social structure and thought process specific to the certification, expectations and published purposes of education.  Not just in K-12 but in our technical and trade education professions but; and especially in our upper division or college education.  The very term “University” implies diversity of education.  In fact I believe that the very concept of a diverse education has been high jacked by social engineers with specific political agendas.  I am not saying that we should forget social and racial diversities – just that if we are going to think “diversity” we must be able to include a lot more “things” as diverse. 

My point is – no one should claim to have or provide diversity that does not teach personal finance, healthy activity and nutrition and basic understanding of religious principles especially how those principles have effected history.  Should we not expect the same “tolerance” of religious ideas as we accept impressions of gender?  But there is a lot more.  How can someone think they have a diverse education that do not even know how to safely handle and fire a gun?  I have also posted that in many foreign countries there is a term for someone that can only speak one language – that term is “American”.   This also is a failure of education specific to the good old USA.   I would guess that 90% (excluding return LDS missionaries) of Americans that speak a second language learn that second language exclusively in their home because they have not yet been “totally” immersed into our very un-diverse pretending diverse definition so rampant in our very closed minded culture.

 

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share