Mormon and gay. Where are we going?

[BJ64]

5 minutes ago, Vort said:

That's just low testosterone talking. If you had as much testosterone surging through your manly veins as, say, BJ64, you would understand.

Yes, very true!😄

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

15 hours ago, BJ64 said:

As I wrote before all men are expected to maintain the same standard of sexual purity. However the man with the higher testosterone level is going to have to work at it harder than the man with the low level. A man with low testosterone and little sexual desire is not going to be tempted to the same degree as a high testosterone man. That’s just how it works and is the primary reason why an old couple may only desire sex once a month while a young couple may want it once a day. The “self control” that older men think they have developed over time may merely be the loss of testosterone and it’s effects. It is also why it’s unlikely that a ninety year old man will be tempted to engage in pornography and masturbation while a young might. 

Again that’s simply how hormones work. If you don’t understand that then you’ve never felt the effects of fluctuations in testosterone. 

The loss of testosterone is gradual and not noticed by many men but bring an older man’s testosterone level up to that of a teenager and he’ll testify of the difference it made in his sex life. 

I think this is fascinating.  People talk all the time about women's hormones, PMS, etc.  No on disputes that hormones can effect us and our mood.  For some women, the hormone changes after child birth can lead to very serious depression.   I haven't researched it, but it seems reasonable that our hormones might influence our sex drive as well.  I have a theory that the reason girls in high school often seem to get pregnant the first time they have sex is because of hormones....the time they are most fertile, is also the time they are most likely to give in and say yes.  Our bodies are designed that way.   

Of course, hormones or not we all need to live the Law of Chastity.  I'm not saying other wise, and I didn't understand you to be saying that either.  It makes sense to me that due to testosterone levels, living the Law of Chastity might be more challenging for one male than another.  And also that due to testosterone, one might have more aggression and have to work harder to control his tempter than another.  Fortunately, the Lord will be the judge and He will judge each person fairly.  

[Anddenex]

1 hour ago, Grunt said:

IT'S NOT A DRESS, IT'S A KILT!!!!!!

Looks like a dress to me. If it talks, walks, and acts like a duck -- its a duck.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

 

I started to read this essay. My first impression was that it leaned toward the defensive. Naturally it would when the man that wrote it has two gay sons. Some of what he said didn't ring true to me. SO I didn't read the whole thing. I recommend the written works of Ty Mansfield (  voicesofhope.org  ) who is following the church leaders pretty closely in everything he writes. I also would recommend reading what the church is publishing currently on these issues rather than seeking out private blogs or opinions (other than Ty Mansfield). I never fail to feel the spirit confirming what out Prophet says. Private blogs, not so much. Even this opinion piece by the father of gay sons. I can totally understand the almost subconcious need to protect his sons and himself when a lot of blame can sometimes fall on parental relationships. 

I can't imagine how hard it is for the parents. I don't have that challenge with my own 7 kids but may with grandchildren, especially since it's becoming so much more acceptable to experiment with homosexuality in society. And I lean toward believing Travelor's  explanation of learned behavior and learned feelings ( for whatever reason)  over the "born that way" theory.

You are not alone carlimac. The irony of opening his article with Elder Uchtdorf's statement regarding revelation (what has been revealed and our thoughts) caused me to stop reading the justification and misinterpretations of some items.

I stopped when the individual tried to act like celibacy is different than the law of chastity and that the Bible speaks out against certain things, but the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants don't address it or they were silent. It was rationalization. I truly feel for the father and his sons, the commandments don't change because of sexual preference.

Even single men and women are commanded to live the law of chastity (celibacy) until marriage -- and marriage has been defined and will continue to be defined by the Lord as between man and woman.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Anddenex
justification to rationalization

[zil]

20 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Looks like a dress to me. If it talks, walks, and acts like a duck -- its a duck.

Wait, is it a dress, a kilt, or a duck!?  No wonder I don't understand men.

[estradling75]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I think this is fascinating.  People talk all the time about women's hormones, PMS, etc.  No on disputes that hormones can effect us and our mood.  For some women, the hormone changes after child birth can lead to very serious depression.   I haven't researched it, but it seems reasonable that our hormones might influence our sex drive as well.  I have a theory that the reason girls in high school often seem to get pregnant the first time they have sex is because of hormones....the time they are most fertile, is also the time they are most likely to give in and say yes.  Our bodies are designed that way.   

Of course, hormones or not we all need to live the Law of Chastity.  I'm not saying other wise, and I didn't understand you to be saying that either.  It makes sense to me that due to testosterone levels, living the Law of Chastity might be more challenging for one male than another.  And also that due to testosterone, one might have more aggression and have to work harder to control his tempter than another.  Fortunately, the Lord will be the judge and He will judge each person fairly.  

Ok tangent time.

Almost always "Being hormonal" is considered a woman thing (and generally negative).   However if Hormonal simply means being powerfully influenced by your hormones... well  testosterone is a hormone and we know what kind of influence testosterone has on people.  Would it not then be logical to state that men can be just as hormonal as women?  Its just a different hormone.

Anyways back to your regular thread.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I haven't researched it, but it seems reasonable that our hormones might influence our sex drive as well.

...you're joking, right?

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

Ok tangent time.

Almost always "Being hormonal" is considered a woman thing (and generally negative).   However if Hormonal simply means being powerfully influenced by your hormones... well  testosterone is a hormone and we know what kind of influence testosterone has on people.  Would it not then be logical to state that men can be just as hormonal as women?  Its just a different hormone.

Anyways back to your regular thread.

Yes, I agree.  

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

41 minutes ago, Vort said:

...you're joking, right?

LOL, no.  It's a natural connection to think about testosterone and sex, right?  But for women, there is not the same connection between estrogen and sex.   Everyone talks about PMS (and negatively at that), PMS and sex don't go well together.   So I just hadn't really thought about women's sex drive (or lack thereof) being influenced by hormones. Seems obvious now that I think about it, but it's not a topic that has ever come up for me before.     

[BJ64]

2 hours ago, estradling75 said:

Ok tangent time.

Almost always "Being hormonal" is considered a woman thing (and generally negative).   However if Hormonal simply means being powerfully influenced by your hormones... well  testosterone is a hormone and we know what kind of influence testosterone has on people.  Would it not then be logical to state that men can be just as hormonal as women?  Its just a different hormone.

Anyways back to your regular thread.

Of course!

[BJ64]

35 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

LOL, no.  It's a natural connection to think about testosterone and sex, right?  But for women, there is not the same connection between estrogen and sex.   Everyone talks about PMS (and negatively at that), PMS and sex don't go well together.   So I just hadn't really thought about women's sex drive (or lack thereof) being influenced by hormones. Seems obvious now that I think about it, but it's not a topic that has ever come up for me before.     

Testosterone drives female sex drive as well. 

[BJ64]

35 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

LOL, no.  It's a natural connection to think about testosterone and sex, right?  But for women, there is not the same connection between estrogen and sex.   Everyone talks about PMS (and negatively at that), PMS and sex don't go well together.   So I just hadn't really thought about women's sex drive (or lack thereof) being influenced by hormones. Seems obvious now that I think about it, but it's not a topic that has ever come up for me before.     

Testosterone drives female sex drive as well. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Testosterone drives female sex drive as well. 

I think I heard once that women have testosterone too, but obviously it's not something I understand well.  Thanks for the info. 

[BJ64]

2 hours ago, Anddenex said:

You are not alone carlimac. The irony of opening his article with Elder Uchtdorf's statement regarding revelation (what has been revealed and our thoughts) caused me to stop reading the justification and misinterpretations of some items.

I stopped when the individual tried to act like celibacy is different than the law of chastity and that the Bible speaks out against certain things, but the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants don't address it or they were silent. It was rationalization. I truly feel for the father and his sons, the commandments don't change because of sexual preference.

Even single men and women are commanded to live the law of chastity (celibacy) until marriage -- and marriage has been defined and will continue to be defined by the Lord as between man and woman.

Celibacy and the law of Chastity are two different things. 

Married couples live the law of Chastity but are not, hopefully, celibate. 

[BJ64]

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

Who cares?  My sex drive doesn't control me.

Anyone who enjoys sex should care about their sex drive. 

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Anyone who enjoys sex should care about their sex drive. 

This statement has nothing to do with my response to your comment.

[carlimac]

4 hours ago, Grunt said:

IT'S NOT A DRESS, IT'S A KILT!!!!!!

I love a man in a kilt. Especially if he has cute knees!

[Anddenex]

6 hours ago, BJ64 said:

Celibacy and the law of Chastity are two different things. 

Married couples live the law of Chastity but are not, hopefully, celibate. 

Indeed. Thus my last statement, "Even single men and women are commanded to live the law of chastity (celibacy) until marriage -- and marriage has been defined and will continue to be defined by the Lord as between man and woman." Celibacy referring to abstaining from sexual relations.

So for someone who experiences same sex attraction they are commanded to be celibate (regarding same sex partners/marriage) otherwise they are breaking the law of chastity. The author trying to say same sex attraction are not commanded to remain celibate as it is different from the law of chastity is false.

EDIT: Let me quote the apostate sentence, "The church’s requirement for gay people – celibacy – is, ironically, considered a false and apostate doctrine." This is so blatantly false, it is really sad any Church member could write it. Celibacy for gay people is not ironic, as it doesn't compare to male and female union. Celibacy for same sex attraction is keeping the law of chastity which is the command and what the Church teaches, nothing ironic about it, unless of course a person desire to rationalize and justify the commandments.

A person only needs to comprehend Moses 1:39 correctly to understand that if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of his Spirit children could not happen with two men or two women union. There is no offspring to bring to pass, thus the work and glory of God ends.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Anddenex

[BJ64]

Duplicate post

Edited July 20, 2018 by BJ64

[BJ64]

9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

I stopped when the individual tried to act like celibacy is different than the law of chastity

This is what you said and what I made reference to. 

[Anddenex]

3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

This is what you said and what I made reference to. 

They aren't with same sex attraction. To abstain from marriage (SSM) and sexual relations (celibacy) with same sex attraction is the law of chastity, which the rest of the response provided.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Anddenex

[BJ64]

9 hours ago, Anddenex said:

Even single men and women are commanded to live the law of chastity (celibacy) until marriage -- and marriage has been defined and will continue to be defined by the Lord as between man and woman.

 

Here again you confuse celibacy and the law of Chastity. Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word celibacy, which is to abstain from marriage. No one in the church is commanded to be celibate except gay members who want a same sex marriage and of course missionaries are not allowed to marry while on their missions. 

Celibacy as a commandment does not exist in the church except for gays which I would assume is the reason the author said it is a false commandment or false doctrine or whatever you said he said and gays are not required to be celibate if they choose to marry someone of the opposite gender. 

[Anddenex]

10 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Here again you confuse celibacy and the law of Chastity. Apparently you don’t know the meaning of the word celibacy, which is to abstain from marriage. No one in the church is commanded to be celibate except gay members who want a same sex marriage and of course missionaries are not allowed to marry while on their missions. 

Celibacy as a commandment does not exist in the church except for gays which I would assume is the reason the author said it is a false commandment or false doctrine or whatever you said he said and gays are not required to be celibate if they choose to marry someone of the opposite gender. 

Yep, I am totally confused -- 🙄

To abstain from marriage (SSM) and sexual relations (celibacy) with same sex attraction is the law of chastity. I understand it just fine. This is twice now you have mentioned something I don't know, while showing you know little yourself. Celibacy is to abstain from marriage and sexual relations -- apparently you don't know the meaning of the word either. You appear to only use "marriage" and previously I specified abstaining from sexual relations. I at least pointed out I was referring to abstaining from sexual relations. Let me quote myself again since you missed it once more, "Celibacy referring to abstaining from sexual relations."

Celibacy - a person who abstains from marriage and sexual relations.

Another silly conversation with BJ64

 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Anddenex

[BJ64]

6 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Yep, I am totally confused it -- 🙄

To abstain from marriage (SSM) and sexual relations (celibacy) with same sex attraction is the law of chastity. I understand it just fine. This is twice now you have mentioned something I don't know, while showing you know little yourself. Celibacy is to abstain from marriage and sexual relations -- apparently you don't know the meaning of the word either. You appear to only use "marriage" and previously I specified abstaining from sexual relations.

Celibacy - a person who abstains from marriage and sexual relations.

Another silly conversation with BJ64.

 

I know the meaning of both words but you keep using them interchangeably even in regard to heterosexual people. 

To my knowledge the temple recommend question does not say “do you live the law of celibacy?”

Edited July 20, 2018 by BJ64

[Anddenex]

4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I know the meaning of both words but you keep using them interchangeably even in regard to heterosexual people. 

Sure you do. 🙄 It is those high levels of testosterone that help you.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Anddenex