Mormon and gay. Where are we going?


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57 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Beautifully stated, and I agree with much of what you have said.

Interestingly enough, I had nearly the opposite journey. During my mid to late teens in the late 1960/s and early 70's out in the mission field, I was acquainted with several of my classmates who were mercilessly ridiculed as homosexuals, and I found the ostracizing and bullying highly objectionable. I was also propositioned several times, and instead of responding aggressively, I attempted to understand their thinking since it was so baffling to mine. And, I worked with several lesbian, and had enlightening discussions.  This ultimately prompted me to advocate against sodomy laws, agreeing that the government had no business sticking its nose in other people's bedrooms. At the time, mine was more a libertarian stance than a moral one, since I have always viewed homosexuality as self-destructive and immoral and a barrier to healthy and happy lives. 

As time went on, and as I witnessed the ravages of AIDs/HIV, and was appalled by how the culture and government were soft-peddling and covering things up under the guise of acceptance and compassion, to the increased detriment of homosexuals, and as I attempted to bring the data to people's attention, while also arguing against state promotion (in the form of same-sex marriage) of what I firmly believed to be destructive behavior, I found myself and my religious faith vilified and on the receiving end of merciless ridicule, when all I and the church were respectfully and reasonably attempting to do was what we believed to be good and just.

However, what I have gleaned from the process, and you have helped somewhat to underscore, are three principles: 1) harmful prejudice against groups of people, whether homosexuals or the church, ought to be objected to; 2) the focus of our endeavors ought to be what is in everyone's best interest rather than what is popular or tribally expedient; and 3) that the tension between the world and the gospel is not only designed by God, but often a valuable thing. To me, even though the way of the world will ultimately lead to misery and unhappiness, we imperfect religionist need a tempering and humbling influence, a check and balance so to speak,  to keep us from coldly pounding the pulpits and pointing the finger of scorn, and instead opening our arms in love, while also placing the firm and steady hand of rightness and good upon the shoulder, and ultimately laying the healing hands of Christ's gospel upon the head.

I am very grateful to you for stimulating this discussion.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks Wade.  

All great points.  

i really appreciate that you have reminded me that people who think differently than i do/as i did are just different parts of the same solution.  

It's unfortunate the extremists do all the talking.  i think the more middle of the road voices stay silent (especially in the LGBT community), because they just want to stay out of the whole mess.  While i can't blame them, i think it allows false perceptions to spread much easier than they would otherwise.  And i'll try to do a better job in this regard.

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49 minutes ago, john4truth said:

There has always been homosexuality the increase is because it is the fad way of rebellion. It has taken the place of inappropriate clothing, tattoos, long hair, earrings etc.   What will come next. This community has made it plain they are trying to convert and recruit.

You think homosexuality is rebellion? Not arguing, just haven't heard that before. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 3:09 PM, wenglund said:

The term used wasn't "same-sex," was it?--which is precisely the point.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund- 

Same sex hugging, kissing and holding hands are behaviors that indicate homosexual conduct as far as BUY is concerned. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 3:55 PM, wenglund said:

To me, this is incorrect in multiple ways. First, the term "homosexual" can't imply a physical trait since there is no such physical trait.  Second,, same-sex attraction speaks only to the attraction, and not the behavior. Whereas, third, the term "homosexual" encompasses both the attraction and the behavior. 

The reason that the leftist language police have attempted to discard the term "homosexual" is because it rightly draws attention to the real issue--i.e. sex between members of the same sex, which traditionally was deem reprehensible, thus undermining the propaganda to make it acceptably about "love." (See HERE and HERE and HERE))

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

I don’t understand your comment. Am I to understand that you’re saying you disagree with Elder Oaks statement?

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On 8/13/2018 at 4:20 PM, Grunt said:

It's a Mormon forum.  I'm unsure why so many people choose to come here to argue Mormon beliefs.  

I wish there were a heavily moderated forum available for uplifting discussions.

This statement seems odd since I can’t remember you ever making an uplifting statement on the forum. Only argumentative comments. 

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4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

This statement seems odd since I can’t remember you ever making an uplifting statement on the forum. Only argumentative comments. 

That's because you only start argumentative threads or hop into them to skirt the edge of church acceptability.   You stay out of threads that are even remotely uplifting unless you see a chance to turn that around.

You're one of the main reasons I come back to this forum less and less.

Edited by Grunt
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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

That's because you only start argumentative threads or hop into them to skirt the edge of church acceptability.   You stay out of threads that are even remotely uplifting unless you see a chance to turn that around.

You're one of the main reasons I come back to this forum less and less.

I’d better post more often then. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 5:41 PM, Anddenex said:

I would have to agree with @wenglund on this. I am not seeing how you provided the given last statement in reference to this quote.  This doesn't say there aren't any homosexuals, it specifically states that if you feel you are homosexual you are describing feelings or behavior not a condition.

I only know of one statement that specifically said there are no homosexuals and that is Elder Bednar who also provided a reason (a good reason) as to why he said this. We are not defined by our feelings, behaviors, sins, etc... we are defined by whose children we are. That is who we are. That is who is in the Church, and in the Church are people who are struggling with some challenge. In this sense, Elder Oaks and Elder Bednar compliment each other.

Thank you for providing the quote, if you find a different quote, please share it.

The way I interpret this statement and  other similar statement is that they are saying that homosexual describes the behavior and is not a born in physical characteristic. Therefore they are saying you should not label yourself as a homosexual because that implies that it is something you are that cannot be changed where if it’s a behavior it is something that can be changed. Therefore they prefer the term same-sex attraction to describe the behavior rather than using the term homosexual to describe it as a born in characteristics of an individual.

I believe what Elder Bednar was saying was that there are no homosexuals in the church only heterosexuals with same-sex attraction. Thay is my understanding. 

Edited by BJ64
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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You think homosexuality is rebellion? Not arguing, just haven't heard that before. 

I suppose that there might be some who use it as a form of rebellion but the homosexuals I know are not that way. Those that I know have always been that way and have never had a hetero sexual attraction. It is not just rebellion.

I think it’s easy to spot on the forum who has good friendships with gay people and who does not. I think those who truly know gay people are not nearly as judgmental as those who don’t.

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2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

nearly as judgmental as those who don’t.

Remember that everyone is judgmental. Me, you, gay people, straight people. Atheists. Religious people. Men. Women....

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3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

And a discussion on sin isn't indicative of how you treat sinners.  

Oh, I agree. I never said it was. I can't imagine anyone on this forum treating homosexuals in a derogatory way. 

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Oh, I agree. I never said it was. I can't imagine anyone on this forum treating homosexuals in a derogatory way. 

By some of the comments I’ve read I don’t think I would concur. 

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Just now, BJ64 said:

By some of the comments I’ve read I don’t think I would concur. 

So you are judging those comments yourself, but you can't see that that alone is judgmental? 

See, I'm pro gay marriage and I have zero problem with homosexuality. But I don't call others who disagree with me "judgmental" because they could correctly say that I'm also judgmental. It's the outcome of their judgements that I disagree with, not that they are judgmental in the first place, because everyone is. 

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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So you are judging those comments yourself, but you can't see that that alone is judgmental? 

See, I'm pro gay marriage and I have zero problem with homosexuality. But I don't call others who disagree with me "judgmental" because they could correctly say that I'm also judgmental. It's the outcome of their judgements that I disagree with, not that they are judgmental in the first place, because everyone is. 

I guess what I should have said is that based on many of the comments on the forum I do not believe that some people here would be very friendly toward gay people.

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1 minute ago, BJ64 said:

I guess what I should have said is that based on many of the comments on the forum I do not believe that some people here would be very friendly toward gay people.

I'm sure they would. LDS are the most tolerant people out there. They may disagree with you but they'll always be polite. At least in the real world. Over the internet it's easier to be rude. 

Edited by MormonGator
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2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I'm sure they would. LDS are the most tolerant people out there. They may disagree with you but they'll always be polite. At least in the real world. Over the internet it's easier to be rude because you don't see anyone. 

In other words they’re too faced. They’re polite to their face but speak evil of them behind their back. 

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2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

In other words they’re too faced. They’re polite to their face but speak evil of them behind their back. 

Nice try. Being polite to those you disagree with isn't being "two faced." It means "I'm not going to act like a snotty teenager who doesn't get my way." 

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Nice try. Being polite to those you disagree with isn't being "two faced." It means "I'm not going to act like a snotty teenager who doesn't get my way." 

However acting as though you’re someone’s friend and then talking behind her back isn’t exactly being genuine either.

Edited by BJ64
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2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I think it’s easy to spot on the forum who has good friendships with gay people and who does not. I think those who truly know gay people are not nearly as judgmental as those who don’t.

 

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I guess what I should have said is that based on many of the comments on the forum I do not believe that some people here would be very friendly toward gay people.

I don't think your discernment is as strong as you think it is.

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2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

However acting as though you’re someone’s friend and then talking behind her back is exactly being genuine either.

No, being genuine is letting the gay friend know your stance on homosexuality, still being their friend, and talking about homosexuality in the same light you shared with your gay friend.

I will be the first in line to back the church’s stance on homosexuality, I will be the first to stand against a gay pride movement that demands reform in our church and accuses us all of being bigots, I will defend our theology to the end and not budge on God’s purpose for families. I will never condone homosexual behavior. I will never call it anything more or less than a sin.

I will also be the first to defend my brother if he were to be attacked because of his homosexuality, I will stand up for anyone who is being publicly harassed for their homosexuality.

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20 hours ago, MormonGator said:

You think homosexuality is rebellion? Not arguing, just haven't heard that before. 

I have heard much more that is a fad. I am not a hater but very few are limited to one partner. Over 50%have over 100 partners in 5 years so the mindset is more about open relationship. There are maps where you can have privacy for blind dates all over the U.S. roadside parks are the most common. When you study the matter same gender attraction has very little to do with the subject matter. It does happen and is real but the stats are alarming as a group. Fad may not be the best term but it is the next step from the 60's

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