Mormon and gay. Where are we going?


Fether
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3 hours ago, person0 said:

I presume this was a fairly common occurrence when arranged marriages where all the rage.  Not all heterosexuals are attracted to all members of the opposite sex.

I suppose many of those arranged marriages were also unhappy marriages. 

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3 hours ago, person0 said:

I have not read them all through but:

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/voices/kim-lance/

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/voices/jordan-kylie/

and more available here:

https://ldsvoicesofhope.org/meet-the-voices/

there is a tab for Married couples stories that will filter them down.

There may be “success” stories but there are likely more failure stories. I have a friend who married in the temple, had children then divorced after 20 years. He is now married to his male partner. 

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4 hours ago, person0 said:

This is not really true as written.  It is better for a homosexual to stay celibate than to act on homosexual impulses, however, if they have a legitimate opportunity to marry someone (of the opposite sex) that they truly love, and both parties agree to work through the homosexuality issue together, then there is no reason they should not marry in this life and go to the temple and be sealed.

Same sex attraction is an experience of the 'natural man'.  The idea of considering it in the light of physical/spiritual is irrelevant so long as one recognizes it is an aspect of the natural man.  A homosexual who dies will not all of a sudden become cleansed of their homosexual desires, just as an alcoholic who dies will not become cleansed of their affinity for alcohol.  When one dies, they will carry with them the same appetites and desires, and the same attitudes.  It is the purifying power of the Spirit of God, made available to us because of the Atonement of Christ that will continue the cleansing process to make us perfect and enable us to fully suppress the natural man.  Through this process homosexual desires can be cleansed, and will be for those who choose Christ.

The carnal and fallen nature of our desires will be overcome, what will be left will be pure love for one another, and the desire to express that pure love appropriately, according to the commandments of God.  Love and sexuality are not the same thing, however, in our carnal state, and especially in our modern society, it is not always easy to remember this.  Homosexuals will not lose anything, they will overcome, be cleansed, and become perfect, there is a big difference.

This is the statement I was referring to when I made my comment. 

“ELDER WICKMAN: One question that might be asked by somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is, “Is this something I’m stuck with forever? What bearing does this have on eternal life? If I can somehow make it through this life, when I appear on the other side, what will I be like?”

Gratefully, the answer is that same-gender attraction did not exist in the pre-earth life and neither will it exist in the next life. It is a circumstance that for whatever reason or reasons seems to apply right now in mortality, in this nano-second of our eternal existence.

The good news for somebody who is struggling with same-gender attraction is this: 1) It is that ‘I’m not stuck with it forever.’ It’s just now. Admittedly, for each one of us, it’s hard to look beyond the ‘now’ sometimes. But nonetheless, if you see mortality as now, it’s only during this season. 2) If I can keep myself worthy here, if I can be true to gospel commandments, if I can keep covenants that I have made, the blessings of exaltation and eternal life that Heavenly Father holds out to all of His children apply to me. Every blessing — including eternal marriage — is and will be mine in due course.”

 

I don’t know how it can be said that there will not be same gender attraction in the next life and yet believe there will be opposite gender attraction in the next life. This confuses me. It does not seem logical. 

Do we know that same gender attraction did not exist in the pre earth life? Where is that written?

Edited by BJ64
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41 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

I suppose many of those arranged marriages were also unhappy marriages. 

Surprisingly no.  Turns out, when you commit to it, you end up making it work.  Probably wouldn't work in our society of cheap divorce, but when you have no option but make it work, you make it work.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-08-22/features/sc-fam-0821-arranged-marriage-20120821_1_marriages-free-choice-satisfaction

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1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

 

I don’t know how it can be said that there will not be same gender attraction in the next life and yet believe there will be opposite gender attraction in the next life. This confuses me. It does not seem logical. 

Do we know that same gender attraction did not exist in the pre earth life? Where is that written?

 

I am not an expert - I do not remember much of anything of our pre-existence - nor do I have any means to know of anything beyond death.  However, I do believe that those things we seek out (good or bad) will remain with us with one caveat.  Those things that hinder our exaltation and eternal life that we do not repent of - will rise with us in the resurrection.

I believe as intelligent eternal beings that we are capable of modifying our behavior - no one has to do anything cognitive that their conscious mind oversees and which we are aware, that they intelligently determine not to do - both in this life and the next.

 

The Traveler

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9 hours ago, BJ64 said:

There may be “success” stories but there are likely more failure stories. I have a friend who married in the temple, had children then divorced after 20 years. He is now married to his male partner. 

That was a success story, until he and his wife failed.  If he lost his testimony, or they decided to give up, that is not a failure of the method, it is a failure of the people.  I also have a friend who made it work for 4 years before giving up.  In my friends situation his naively wife believed she could deal with it, but was not prepared for it.  In her lack of preparation, she held it against him and did not fulfill her role as a spouse as retribution for not receiving physical affection as much as she desired.  Then as a result, he  pulled away further, feeling alone in his desire to provide and care for the home.  Eventually, they called it quits, because both of them were being selfish in one way or another, but especially because she took on a task that she did not understand enough to prepare herself to take on.

Just as when a regular marriage fails, the result is usually the pride and failure of the people, not the marriage, nor reasons for the marriage.  If people gather all the facts and have a truly open and prepared discussion, and then truly strive to endure to the end, I see no reason why they can't be successful.  Difficult, yes, but still plausible.  Even without physical intimacy, how would it be easier to remain alone and celibate than to have a companion and be celibate?  The companionship of a marriage is a huge blessing that people in this situation can obtain.  There is an 80 yr old man in my ward who is homosexual and is still married to his wife after all these years.  Seems to me like he was successful.  I think  more people simply need to gather all the facts and then, possibly with pre-marital counseling involved, make a decision.  However, people allow themselves to change; if one of them quits trying after 15-20 years, that is on them, and that can happen in any marriage.

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Guest MormonGator
10 hours ago, BJ64 said:

There may be “success” stories but there are likely more failure stories. I have a friend who married in the temple, had children then divorced after 20 years. He is now married to his male partner. 

You can deny who you are for a long period of time, but eventually it'll catch up to you. 

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Just now, MormonGator said:

You can deny who you are for a long period of time, but eventually it'll catch up to you. 

This presents almost no problem for the outside observer.  It's quite easy to deny who someone else is (in perpetuity) - especially if you are not the one, or the person whose children, are forced to reconcile that point of view with reality.

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1 minute ago, lostinwater said:

This presents almost no problem for the outside observer.  It's quite easy to deny who someone else is (in perpetuity) - especially if you are not the one, or the person whose children, are forced to reconcile that point of view with reality.

Agree 100%. 

It's very easy to tell someone what they should do when they aren't that person. 

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I would add some more to this thread concerning my understanding of sexual behavior as a “Brain Function”.  There has been a lot of recent advancement in understanding how the human brain learns and rewires itself in the learning process.  I will quickly summarize – in the initial process of learning the human brain is in essence a blank sheet of paper.  The initial behavior efforts in learning are awkward and clumsy.   This is demonstrated with a child learning to walk or even use language.  But what the brain does is in essence wire itself to learned responses.  When this happens the physical structure of the brain will change and the process will be transferred from awkward trying to learn to a smoothly wired built in responses.  Once the brain is wired to a response – it is there forever – unless the brain is damaged in some way that the hard wired part of the brain is inaccessible. 

Learning to play a violin or read brail create such specific wiring that experts looking at brains can identify individuals that have learned certain behaviors from those that have not.  It is interesting that a few years back it was discovered that the brains of homosexuals are different than the brain of heterosexuals.   At first this difference was touted as proof that homosexuals are pre-wired – that was until it was realized that the area of the brain where the difference occurred was in that part of learned wiring.  Now no one talks about it now and all research into differences in the homosexual brain have been discontinued.  If one understand the politics of this – they will understand the why.

Let me summarize a little science for everyone.  Once the human brain is wired with a learned activity – it is permanent – that particular wiring will never change – at least not in this life.  Sexual behaviors are not special behaviors that are so different from all other behavior learning.  However, sexual behaviors are also supported by dopamine that is released in the brain to provide pleasure.  Sexual behaviors are not the only behaviors that can generate pleasures in the brain but any learned behaviors associated with pleasure responses are very prone not just to habit but addiction as well.  We also know that addicted behaviors can be over ridden with intelligence – but some individuals have more difficulty with over ridding addictions than others.  The point is that over ridding addictions are possible.  However, there is a vast difference between what humans cannot do or are incapable of doing and what a specific human will not do. 

I do not remember the prophet – perhaps Brigham Young that said something like, “When personal pleasure is involved good sense and reason go out the window.”

 

The Traveler

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8 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 

I would add some more to this thread concerning my understanding of sexual behavior as a “Brain Function”.  There has been a lot of recent advancement in understanding how the human brain learns and rewires itself in the learning process.  I will quickly summarize – in the initial process of learning the human brain is in essence a blank sheet of paper.  The initial behavior efforts in learning are awkward and clumsy.   This is demonstrated with a child learning to walk or even use language.  But what the brain does is in essence wire itself to learned responses.  When this happens the physical structure of the brain will change and the process will be transferred from awkward trying to learn to a smoothly wired built in responses.  Once the brain is wired to a response – it is there forever – unless the brain is damaged in some way that the hard wired part of the brain is inaccessible. 

Learning to play a violin or read brail create such specific wiring that experts looking at brains can identify individuals that have learned certain behaviors from those that have not.  It is interesting that a few years back it was discovered that the brains of homosexuals are different than the brain of heterosexuals.   At first this difference was touted as proof that homosexuals are pre-wired – that was until it was realized that the area of the brain where the difference occurred was in that part of learned wiring.  Now no one talks about it now and all research into differences in the homosexual brain have been discontinued.  If one understand the politics of this – they will understand the why.

Let me summarize a little science for everyone.  Once the human brain is wired with a learned activity – it is permanent – that particular wiring will never change – at least not in this life.  Sexual behaviors are not special behaviors that are so different from all other behavior learning.  However, sexual behaviors are also supported by dopamine that is released in the brain to provide pleasure.  Sexual behaviors are not the only behaviors that can generate pleasures in the brain but any learned behaviors associated with pleasure responses are very prone not just to habit but addiction as well.  We also know that addicted behaviors can be over ridden with intelligence – but some individuals have more difficulty with over ridding addictions than others.  The point is that over ridding addictions are possible.  However, there is a vast difference between what humans cannot do or are incapable of doing and what a specific human will not do. 

I do not remember the prophet – perhaps Brigham Young that said something like, “When personal pleasure is involved good sense and reason go out the window.”

 

The Traveler

The brain is a physical feature of our body which can learn behavior but we also have our spirit which existed before our physical brain. How much of our thought and behavior is controlled by our brain and how much by our spirit? Which is in control? There is a complex interaction between the brain and the spirit. A spirit cannot will the body to do something if the brain is damaged yet the brain cannot function without the spirit. 

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Pro gay people tell us that same sex attraction is something they are born with. Not learned. Would you say that opposite sex attraction is something we are born with or is it a learned behavior? Why would the two be different? Gay men I have talked to say they have been attracted to men from their earliest childhood memories. Is that a sign of a learned behavior or an inborn characteristic?

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18 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Pro gay people tell us that same sex attraction is something they are born with. Not learned. Would you say that opposite sex attraction is something we are born with or is it a learned behavior? Why would the two be different? Gay men I have talked to say they have been attracted to men from their earliest childhood memories. Is that a sign of a learned behavior or an inborn characteristic?

 

There is a lot of science concerning cognitive behavior.  Cognitive behaviors are learned.  As for sexual behaviors - we are not born with behaviors.  We are also not born with fears but many cannot remember a time they did not suffer from certain fears - like the fear of spiders - thinking they were born with an innate fear of spiders.   My point is that often learned activities seem so ingrained that it is not uncommon for many to think they were born with something they have learned.

I have had many exchanges with those with same sex attractions.  I joined the army at age 17 but I looked about 13.  At the time I was 5'6" and weighed about 115.  I met a great many individuals with same sex attractions some of which ended with violence.  For much of my life I carried strong and bitter dislike of those of my same sex that were attracted to me.  This is not unique to same sex attractions - indeed it is problematic in general that often attractions are not mutual.  But those that would tell me they were born with same sex attractions would pursue me with statements of, "You do not know if you are really attracted to a same sex unless you try it".  There is a serious disconnect.

In the case of Pavlov's dog - concerning the lowest level of cognitive learning - it has been demonstrated that learning can take place at what is called the subliminal level.  My point is that sexual behavior is not so different from other learned behaviors.  Those that think "attractions" are not cognitive are caught in a bazar cycle of deliberate stupidity.   The problem is that this has become an emotional issue that is void of logic and reason.  A matter a someone wanting what they want and no amount of reason or logic will affect them.

 

The Traveler

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Guest MormonGator
42 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Pro gay people tell us that same sex attraction is something they are born with. Not learned. Would you say that opposite sex attraction is something we are born with or is it a learned behavior? Why would the two be different? Gay men I have talked to say they have been attracted to men from their earliest childhood memories. Is that a sign of a learned behavior or an inborn characteristic?

You are born that way. Not to be dirty or rude but any male who can look at the beauty that is a woman and not feel attracted-that's innate. 

 

Edited by MormonGator
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8 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

You are born that way. Not to be dirty or rude but any male who can look at the beauty that is a woman and not feel attracted to it-that's innate. 

 

I do not agree.  We are attracted to all things we learn or convince our self to be beautiful.  For example despite initial appearances - should anyone (including the opposite sex) smoke a cigarette - my attractions turn into in-attractions.  I am very sure this is learned.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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Guest MormonGator
Just now, Traveler said:

I do not agree.  We are attracted to all things we learn or convince our self to be beautiful.  For example despite initial appearances - should anyone (including the opposite sex) smoke a cigarette - my attractions turn into in-attractions.  I am very sure this is learned.

 

The Traveler

I understand that point of view @Traveler, but I still think it's biological. 

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3 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I do not agree.  We are attracted to all things we learn or convince our self to be beautiful.  For example despite initial appearances - should anyone (including the opposite sex) smoke a cigarette - my attractions turn into in-attractions.  I am very sure this is learned.

  

The Traveler

Thanks @Traveler

Honest question - where do you draw the line between the innate and the learned, and what is the justification for placing it there? 

Really, it's just soliciting an opinion - not meant to be argumentative at all.  

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18 hours ago, Fether said:

Has anyone heard of any situation like this that was successful? 

Before the sexual orientation movement, how many man do you think married a woman (people did not know were homosexual) that stayed married until they died unsung?

In our world, I would say this relationship is even harder:

1) We have even LDS members who promote and support SSM and dig the Church for their standing despite knowing God's judgements

2) We have a world (the natural world) labeling anyone who does not support the practice of this sin as bigots, hypocrytes, etc...

3) We have individuals telling people who feel this way to be true to themselves (which is the irony) and to act out on their attraction

4) We have a world that supports the break up of an eternal family due to same sex attraction rather than encouraging remaining as a couple, and if if you encourage remaining as a couple refer to #2

If a person doesn't have a testimony the likelihood of them staying in such a relationship is very low. People who have a testimony (i.e. the Weeks who just ended their marriage not long ago) may have actually had a prosperous marriage but due to our social and political tumultuous climate the eternal marriage ended.

I wish I could find the video the Church put out on their initial mormonandgay website about a young man's change, and then marriage and then children. I would be interested to know if they are still together. I found his process of repentance and his open testimony to be an example of someone who is truly coming unto Christ.

In this scenario the Tree of Life vision showing people who have partaken of the Fruit and then looked at the finger of scorn were ashamed. People in this relationship will feel even more the finger of scorn for living the commandments as God commanded and thus will be more tempted by the finger of scorn to turn away then to continue the more difficult path as intended by God.

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2 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Before the sexual orientation movement, how many man do you think married a woman (people did not know were homosexual) that stayed married until they died unsung?

And this brings up another somewhat controversial question.

How many homosexuals were there prior to this movement?  I’m content with the idea that there are people who are born with chemical imbalances that lead them to be attracted to their own gender, but has the movement created a culture of such experimenting that the chemical I’m alances were developed early in life rather than being born with it?

Side note: the same people that claim gender dyspeptic and homosexuality is natural are the same people that claim that claim there is no God. Well the only thing that is really natural in this world is survival, things that don’t adopt traits of survival are extinct and that is all that the natural world cares about. Homosexuality does not promote survival. If we sent every gay person to one island, in 60 years there would no one left alive. So the only way to justify it as being natural is to argue that there is a god and he wants homosexuality.

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1 minute ago, Fether said:

And this brings up another somewhat controversial question.

How many homosexuals were there prior to this movement?  I’m content with the idea that there are people who are born with chemical imbalances that lead them to be attracted to their own gender, but has the movement created a culture of such experimenting that the chemical I’m alances were developed early in life rather than being born with it?

Side note: the same people that claim gender dyspeptic and homosexuality is natural are the same people that claim that claim there is no God. Well the only thing that is really natural in this world is survival, things that don’t adopt traits of survival are extinct and that is all that the natural world cares about. Homosexuality does not promote survival. If we sent every gay person to one island, in 60 years there would no one left alive. So the only way to justify it as being natural is to argue that there is a god and he wants homosexuality.

I think your question, in light of my statement, would be a natural follow up question. Here are some thoughts I would have regarding this:

1) Homosexuality is nothing new. The Holy Bible makes us aware that this was a temptation then as it is now.

2) I personally would say the numbers would be higher today than in past generations (due to acceptable experimentation now); however, we have evidence (I believe strong evidence) the practice was high among Greeks and Romans (probably more, but for sure matching today).

3) I had a close friend in high school who remained chaste up until college (not a member). In college she experimented with homosexual partners. When asked by one of our friends why, who knew her also in high school, her response was, "It is the thing you do." When something is more accepted we will see the action increase. For example, imagine if the Law of Chastity stated and was changed to, "As long as you are in love you can have premarital sex, or are in a long term relationship." This would obviously increase the amount of premarital sex at BYU ;)

4) As to your last statement, this is why I mentioned even LDS members support and encourage such actions despite knowing the judgements of God. We hear all the time now, "I am who I am, and who I am is how God made me. And God doesn't make anything that is not good." This is one of Satan's greatest lies in our day. If we are who we are, and God doesn't make anything not good -- then why do we need Christ/a Savior"? We need a Savior because God knew full well our decisions, and if we all acted on who we are we would have a lot more adultery in the Church, because that is who some people are and what they are truly tempted with. Imagine if adultery was given the same label today, and if anyone thought this was sin they were bigots? I would assume the number of adulterous relationships would also go up -- my opinion.

5) In high school I had people telling me to come out of the closet, actually, my whole history class Sophmore year I had to defend I wasn't gay.  When I actually started dating a girl my senior year I then heard rumors from others saying, "I thought he was gay. Are you sure he is not gay"? Fortunately, I was strong minded not to give in. I have seen others, similar situation, give in because that is what people told them. So we have the question, if a male is more feminine and would score more feminine on gender test (as I do), if they aren't strong willed, how many will then begin to lead a life that they otherwise would not have due to pressure? I have seen women date man they would not have otherwise chosen due to pressure from friends.

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23 minutes ago, Fether said:

And this brings up another somewhat controversial question.

How many homosexuals were there prior to this movement?  I’m content with the idea that there are people who are born with chemical imbalances that lead them to be attracted to their own gender, but has the movement created a culture of such experimenting that the chemical I’m alances were developed early in life rather than being born with it?

Side note: the same people that claim gender dyspeptic and homosexuality is natural are the same people that claim that claim there is no God. Well the only thing that is really natural in this world is survival, things that don’t adopt traits of survival are extinct and that is all that the natural world cares about. Homosexuality does not promote survival. If we sent every gay person to one island, in 60 years there would no one left alive. So the only way to justify it as being natural is to argue that there is a god and he wants homosexuality.

You could gather all homosexuals to an island but more would still be born every day. They are not a species of themselves but the offspring of heterosexual couples. 

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3 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

You could gather all homosexuals to an island but more would still be born every day. They are not a species of themselves but the offspring of heterosexual couples. 

@Fether can answer for himself and correct me if I am wrong, but his concept for this question was specifying survival (I believe survival of species). If we placed only homosexual partners on an island in 60 years or so the human population on that island would not survive. Not that other people experiencing same sex attraction would not be born. He never specified they are a species of themselves, I am pretty sure Fether understands this.

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