Mormon and gay. Where are we going?


Fether
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Good bleepety bleep bleep bleeping bleep.  Apparently we need a moderator to go back and modify all posts in this thread by everyone except BJ and change "celibacy" to "sexual abstinence".

Then maybe BJ should peruse more than one dictionary and see that for the majority of people, especially those who come from religions where there's no such thing as a vow of celibacy, and more especially for Mormons, "celibacy" is only "sexual abstinence".

I'm having a very hard time believing this isn't willful misunderstanding of how everyone else intended "celibacy".

Did I mention GBBBBB?

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

I read your post well.  I disagreed.  You can be married and celibate.  But that wasn't the gist of my post.  The gist of my post is that there is no different law for homosexuals.

You can only be married and celibate if you change the meaning of the word celibate. 

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57 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And @anatess2 explicitly modified the definition when she made her statement

 

She made her alterations clear by using all CAPS even.  Words have meaning, and some times we only want part of the meaning for our point.  When we do this we need to be clear about it..  She was.  You are forcing words and meaning into her statement that she explicitly said was not the case.

 

No, I think you are mistaken. She clearly says you can be married and celibate which are contradictory terms. 

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52 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

Then why would you make the following argument that started this whole debate, " Married couples live the law of Chastity but are not, hopefully, celibate."

That was a joke. I guess I should have put a smiley face after it. 

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1 hour ago, zil said:

Good bleepety bleep bleep bleeping bleep.  Apparently we need a moderator to go back and modify all posts in this thread by everyone except BJ and change "celibacy" to "sexual abstinence".

Then maybe BJ should peruse more than one dictionary and see that for the majority of people, especially those who come from religions where there's no such thing as a vow of celibacy, and more especially for Mormons, "celibacy" is only "sexual abstinence".

I'm having a very hard time believing this isn't willful misunderstanding of how everyone else intended "celibacy".

Did I mention GBBBBB?

Where's my speedo?

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For the curious, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/celibacy

Quote

Definition of celibacy

1: the state of not being married
2a : abstention from sexual intercourse
b : abstention by vow from marriage priestly celibacy

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/celibacy

Quote

cel·i·ba·cy

  (sĕl′ə-bə-sē)
n.
1. Abstinence from sexual relations.
2. The condition of remaining unmarried, especially for religious reasons.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition. Copyright © 2016 by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Harcourt Publishing Company. All rights reserved.

cel•i•ba•cy

 (ˈsɛl ə bə si) 

n.
1. abstention from sexual relations.
2. abstention by vow from marriage.
3. the state of being unmarried.
[1655–65; < Latin caelib(ātus) celibacy (caelib-, s. of caelebs single + -ātus -ate3) + -acy]
cel`i•bat′ic (-ˈbæt ɪk) adj.
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/celibacy

Quote

celibacy

[sel-uh-buh-see]
ExamplesWord Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com

noun
  1. abstention from sexual relations.
  2. abstention by vow from marriage:the celibacy of priests.
  3. the state of being unmarried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celibacy

Quote

Celibacy (from Latin, cælibatus") is the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both, usually for religious reasons.[1][2][3][4] It is often in association with the role of a religious official or devotee.[1] In its narrow sense, the term celibacy is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction.[1][5] In a wider sense, it is commonly understood to only mean abstinence from sexual activity.[1][5]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/celibate

Quote

Definition of celibate

: of, relating to, or characterized by celibacy:
a : not engaging in or characterized by sexual intercourse 
  • leading a celibate life
  • Because he regarded sex outside marriage as sinful, he remained celibate all his life.—Faith McNulty
  • He pursued her avidly, writing her as many as three letters a day and even offering acelibate marriage to appease her fear of sex.—Ruth Franklin
  • I'd been celibate for so long, what was another year without sex?—Sue Grafton
b : abstaining from marriage and sex especially because of a religious vow
  • Father Hawkins, for one, believes the priesthood would benefit from a broader mix of married and celibate priests.—Daniel McGinn
  • I have met a few celibate monks in whom celibacy is truly a gift, a charism from which all—married or not—can learn …—John Garvey
  • The Shakers, a celibate religious community, stress pacifism, equality and the communal ownership of material goods.—Lyn Riddle

celibate

Definition of celibate

plural celibates
: a person who lives in celibacy : a celibate person:
a : an unmarried person; especially : one who abstains from marriage because of a religious vow 
  • priestly celibates
b : a person who abstains from sexual intercourse
  • … described himself as "a reluctant celibate" who had not been with a woman for four years …—Janice Kennedy

 

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@mordorbund

Interesting. I had no idea of those other meanings for celibate.

I thought celibate meant only total abstinence from sexual relations. I didn't know it could also mean remaining unmarried as well.

I don't know if it's just my perspective or not, but I think celibate, at least in these days, is usually meant to mean sexual abstinence. I mean, I didn't even know about the other meaning!

Edited by jerome1232
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18 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

@mordorbund

Interesting. I had no idea of those other meanings for celibate.

I thought celibate meant only total abstinence from sexual relations. I didn't know it could also mean remaining unmarried as well.

I don't know if it's just my perspective or not, but I think celibate, at least in these days, is usually meant to mean sexual abstinence. I mean, I didn't even know about the other meaning!

In a religious sense celibacy is most closely associated with catholic priests, nuns, monks and so forth who for religious reasons vow to not marry. Of course abstaining from sex is a part of a vow to not marry. 

As I said before the church does not require celibacy af anyone (except perhaps missionaries while serving). 

While people throw the word around, gays are not required to be celibate either. They are always free to marry someone of the opposite sex. 

Edited by BJ64
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It is interesting though that gays are held to a different standard from others at BYU. While all single students are required to abstain from sex, things which do not break the law of Chastity for heterosexual people such as hugging, kissing,  holding hands and dating are prohibited acts for gay people and will get them expelled. 

Homosexual behavior is prohibited and that does not include sex only. I believe this is also the standard for gays getting temple recommends. 

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On 7/14/2018 at 8:40 AM, Fether said:

Whenever the church has interactions with the LGBTQ+ community, it stirs a series of thoughts and questions.

What is the ultimate vision? Obviously it is rooted in charity and acceptance but not quite reaching into adoption of standards. Do we see some day in the future where homosexual couples are freely marrying each other outside of the church yet attending church faithfully? Even holding “minor” callings like a Sunday school teacher? 

Will the LGBTQ community ever stop seeing the church as a religion of bigotry if We never change our view of marriage, but still put as much efforts into strengthening our ties with them?

Does anyone believe that one day the church will allow homosexuals to receive temple recommends?? I definitely don’t.

To get back to the original question. I don’t see the church moving anywhere in regards to gay marriage. It will always be a sin and those entering gay marriage or living a gay lifestyle will not be part of the church. However I think the church will continue to reach out to them as much as possible to bring them back to the fold but only on the terms of the Church. Not on the terms of the LBGT agenda.  

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On 7/17/2018 at 9:28 PM, BJ64 said:

I don’t know how it can be said that there will not be same gender attraction in the next life and yet believe there will be opposite gender attraction in the next life. This confuses me. It does not seem logical. 

Who says opposite gender sexual attraction will exist in the next life?

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On 7/17/2018 at 5:11 PM, LiterateParakeet said:

You took the words right out of my mouth. People do it, but the divorce rate is about 70% So, no I don't think so.  It takes a tremendous toll on both spouses.  I wouldn't recommend it.

Statistics don't apply individually. Even if this statistic is right (which I highly doubt because I'd bet dollars to donuts that most successful hetero marriages with one of them gay partially succeed because the one struggling with those thoughts and desires keeps it to themselves)... But even if that statistic is right it has no bearing on the potential one who struggles with ssa has for a successful hetero marriage. 

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On 7/18/2018 at 9:29 AM, Traveler said:

 Those that think "attractions" are not cognitive are caught in a bazar cycle of deliberate stupidity. 

Awesome sentence. I can think of a myriad of scriptures teaching the same idea in different ways. Pleasing to the carnal mind, etc... 

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On 7/18/2018 at 11:50 AM, BJ64 said:

I would not want to be married to someone who was not sexually attracted to me. I don’t know why anyone would. 

Because some people believe there are more important things than sexual gratification. 

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On 7/18/2018 at 11:56 AM, Fether said:

And this brings up another somewhat controversial question.

How many homosexuals were there prior to this movement?  I’m content with the idea that there are people who are born with chemical imbalances that lead them to be attracted to their own gender, but has the movement created a culture of such experimenting that the chemical I’m alances were developed early in life rather than being born with it?

Side note: the same people that claim gender dyspeptic and homosexuality is natural are the same people that claim that claim there is no God. Well the only thing that is really natural in this world is survival, things that don’t adopt traits of survival are extinct and that is all that the natural world cares about. Homosexuality does not promote survival. If we sent every gay person to one island, in 60 years there would no one left alive. So the only way to justify it as being natural is to argue that there is a god and he wants homosexuality.

That's very interesting. I suspect that if we sent all homosexuals to an island that they'd procreate with one another because there's a great deal of falsehood in it all. 

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50 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Who says opposite gender sexual attraction will exist in the next life?

Since celestial marriages will continue in the next life I presume couples will retain a sexual attraction for each other. 

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17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Because some people believe there are more important things than sexual gratification. 

Yet we are given a sex drive to bring us together in marriage and to get us to have children. Sexual attraction also helps keep marriages strong. Marriage without sexual attraction is just two people living in the same house. 

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Guest MormonGator
4 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

. Marriage without sexual attraction is just two people living in the same house. 

I think it's more about sex. It's about who you fall in love with. Sure, you can have a loveless marriage and it can technically last long, but it must be sad to be involved in one. 

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19 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

Yet we are given a sex drive to bring us together in marriage and to get us to have children. Sexual attraction also helps keep marriages strong. Marriage without sexual attraction is just two people living in the same house. 

Two married people being obedient for the sake of eternal reward matters more to some than sexual gratification. 

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23 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I think it's more about sex. It's about who you fall in love with. Sure, you can have a loveless marriage and it can technically last long, but it must be sad to be involved in one. 

I wrote this presuming that love goes along with sexual attraction but I guess that wouldn’t have to be the case. 

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29 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Why? 

If a married couple has sexual attraction for each other in this life why wouldn’t they have it in the next life? Do you expect resurrected beings to be sexless individuals?

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2 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

If a married couple has sexual attraction for each other in this life why wouldn’t they have it in the next life? Do you expect resurrected beings to be sexless individuals?

Why would physical sex be requisite in the eternities? 

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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