Advice needed, long read: Contemplating Divorce

[Lost Boy]

13 hours ago, jmom said:

@Latter-Day Marriage I've thought about that as well and am still torn. Is it better for him to be in a home with a superficially happy picture of United biological parents while his mom is secretly halfway depressed and void of romantic feelings for his father every day? Or better for him to live between the two of us while we're both happy with new partners whom share goals, values, spirituality, chemistry, and attraction? I don't know. Leaving is much harder said than done, of course, but I also had a very positive experience with having stepparents as a child.

Marriage is for the adults in my opinion.  Pretending to be married for your kids sake is not good.  Either fix what is wrong, or move on. It would be better for the kid to have two sets of happy parents than one set of unhappy parents.   Of course the best solution is one set of happy parents.

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Marriage is for the adults in my opinion.

I could not disagree more. Marriage is for the family. It is the union of the sexes, the very basis of human society. It is most certainly for the children, as much as or more than anyone else. The fact that it offers the husband and wife the best possible relationship, assuming they're willing to work at it, is merely a happy by-product.

[Overwatch]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

I could not disagree more. Marriage is for the family. It is the union of the sexes, the very basis of human society. It is most certainly for the children, as much as or more than anyone else. The fact that it offers the husband and wife the best possible relationship, assuming they're willing to work at it, is merely a happy by-product.

I really like what you have to say here but I also see LB's point. No point in having two parents miserable and refusing to compromise with each other. The kids will suffer more than having two sets of parents happy and working together (best case scenario after divorce)

[Vort]

@jmom: You are an adult woman. However, in many respects you are still a child. Please do yourself a huge favor and listen to the wisdom of those who give you hard counsel instead of pity.

Yes, you were selfish and immature when you married your husband. You have grown since then, but the truth is that you're still selfish and immature. That is not a criticism, just an observation. If you think honestly about it, I'm sure you'll agree. But don't beat yourself up about it. Selfishness goes hand in hand with immaturity; it's a facet of being immature. All children are naturally selfish to some degree.

Now is your chance to grow up and accept the role of an adult woman. Seize this opportunity to become someone better than you were. It sounds to me like you have a faithful (if imperfect) husband. Love him. That means serve him. Look out for his best welfare. Make your decisions based on how it will help him, even if it puts you out. Put aside your childish immaturity and be a woman, not a sniveling little girl. It will be hard in many ways, but it will be the most rewarding act of your life. Consider:

• Nurture your marriage as you would nurture your child.
• Forgive your husband.
• Recognize your own weaknesses and evils, and ask forgiveness.
• Sit down with your husband and plan out a month's worth of dates and "together" activities. Then do them.

You think that you can find better in a marriage partner if only you got rid of the deadweight that is your husband. You are wrong. Do you really think there are temple-worthy LDS men in their 20s who are lining up to date and marry a 23-year-old divorcée with a child -- especially one who left her recently baptized husband because, you know, she was disappointed with him and didn't think he lived up to her expectations? Sister, any man with a modicum of self-respect will run, not walk, away from a woman who treated her ex-husband like that.

You married your husband because you loved him. So love him. There's my advice.

PS Those marvelously spiritually mature 20-year-old missionaries? Yes, many of them truly are spiritually mature beyond their years. But they're still 20. Trust me. And if you were somehow to get involved as a divorcée with a returned missionary your own age, he's going to have a boatload of expectations, spiritually and otherwise. Are you going to get through his checklist? Instead of thinking of your husband as a disappointment, a pair of worn-out shoes that aren't comfortable any more, you would do better to view him as a son of God pursuing his journey back to his Father. Remember, some day you will stand before that Father and explain to him exactly why you did not love and stand by the man you promised to be faithful to -- a son of that Father, one beloved of Him. I urge you to rethink your entire approach to your personal life.

[NeuroTypical]

26 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

Marriage is for the adults in my opinion.  Pretending to be married for your kids sake is not good.  Either fix what is wrong, or move on. It would be better for the kid to have two sets of happy parents than one set of unhappy parents.   Of course the best solution is one set of happy parents.

Last time I checked, kids from a broken home are more likely to: 
- Become pregnant as teenagers.
- Fall under the poverty line
- Get divorced
- Have children out of wedlock
- Go to prison
- Become alcoholic or involved in illicit drugs
...than kids who come from intact two-parent households.   They're less likely to graduate high school, and less likely to go to college. 

Again, the last time I viewed the studies (which has been quite a while), this was true whether the marriage was happy or dysfunctional.   We religious folk used to be really close to these facts, and pull them out often.  I think our zeal died a bit after hearing the studies produced this result even for kids in intact same-sex households where two partners stayed together.  "Staying together for the sake of the children", the last time I heard, does indeed benefit the children.

Edited July 18, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Overwatch]

4 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Last time I checked, kids from a broken home are more likely to: 
- Become pregnant as teenagers.
- Fall under the poverty line
- Get divorced
- Have children out of wedlock
- Go to prison
- Become alcoholic or involved in illicit drugs
...than kids who come from intact two-parent households.   They're less likely to graduate high school, and less likely to go to college. 

Again, the last time I viewed the studies (which has been quite a while), this was true whether the marriage was happy or dysfunctional.   We religious folk used to be really close to these facts, and pull them out often.  I think our zeal died a bit after hearing the studies produced this result even for kids in intact same-sex households where two partners stayed together.  "Staying together for the sake of the children", the last time I heard, does indeed benefit the children.

I used to agree with this completely but there are SOMETIMES points where it is just better for two constantly fighting, uncompromising adults to divorce and try again. I do think however the best case is to repent and make amends with your spouse.

[anatess2]

43 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

I used to agree with this completely but there are SOMETIMES points where it is just better for two constantly fighting, uncompromising adults to divorce and try again. I do think however the best case is to repent and make amends with your spouse.

The only reason Divorce is needed is if you need legal protection for yourself or your children such as financial protection or restraining orders.

A lot of people use Divorce as a "do over".  So they can exchange their current spouse for a new one in the hopes that the problems go away.  A lot of times, the new one becomes just as problematic because the problems that caused that first marriage to fail never got solved.  And if the problems do get solved, then the first marriage could have been saved.

[Lost Boy]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I could not disagree more. Marriage is for the family. It is the union of the sexes, the very basis of human society. It is most certainly for the children, as much as or more than anyone else. The fact that it offers the husband and wife the best possible relationship, assuming they're willing to work at it, is merely a happy by-product.

I married my wife because I love her.  Not because I love my kids.  I am with her because I love her.  That is first and foremost.  If you have that, then the kids will be fine.

[e-eye]

I am going to save this story for my 3 daughters who are of teenage years to show them the importance of dating and marriage.  Sorry for your experience but thanks for sharing - most people don't understand the heartache of choices in the teenage years.

My only advice is - fast pray and seek confirmation from the spirit on what to do.  

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

A lot of people use Divorce as a "do over".  So they can exchange their current spouse for a new one in the hopes that the problems go away.  

Heh.  You mean a lot of people TRY to use divorce as a do-over.  

Lots of people seem to think that a divorce means someone is out of your life.  Almost never true - especially with kids involved. Tax implications, alimony and child support, mutual friendships and relations and acquaintances, property and financial and retirement and insurance issues, and more.   Walk away from some things before they're done, and you're abandoning your responsibilities and are in the wrong - a status every person considering divorce spends a lot of energy working at not holding, even if it's just in their own eyes.

[Pale Queen]

@jmomPlease consider these scriptures:

John 7:17 “If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.”

Ether 12:6 "And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

 Alma 32:28 “Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.” (emphasis added)

Matthew 5:46-47 “For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so?”

Love is an action. We expect the feeling to be there first, but as the first three scriptures point out, you do the actions first, THEN the feelings, knowledge, etc. comes. Consider: you are not holding hands, hugging, kissing… and then saying that you feel like close friends instead of something closer. How CAN you feel closer to him with those actions? You are dreaming about the perfect husband and then comparing your husband to this NOT-REAL illusion. How can he even compare? What we choose to think about and dwell on is ALSO an action. While we aim for the ideal, this is a Telestial world and no one (Sorry, not even you. Not even me!) is going to meet the ideal.  Yes, your husband has his faults that he needs to work on. He also has some noble characteristics, and according to you, has made great changes. As long as everyone is safe, and you two actively work on your relationship, there is no reason why this marriage can’t be saved.

In the last scripture, Jesus points out that the higher law is to love our enemies. It’s easy to love those that we have good feelings toward. The majority of people can do that. However, those who can love people that they feel enmity toward are closer to becoming like our Savior and Heavenly Father.  Even though we don’t feel loved or feel like loving people, we are expected to dig deep within us and sincerely (not insincerely or grudgingly) love them. And then it gets easier and those FEELINGS of love grow stronger.

 

 

On 7/16/2018 at 1:25 PM, jmom said:

I think of how life would continue after a divorce: when I remarry, will my "ex" allow our child to be sealed to me and my new spouse? Will my "ex" even stay active in the church? Will my child become inactive if my "ex" does and doesn't have support & encouragement from both parents? Will we still attend the same sacrament meetings together for awhile? I'm so overwhelmed by this and want a clear answer. I have prayed many times about it over the last 3 years but don't feel I've ever received a clear answer, or maybe I'm just not in tune with the spirit the way I need to be.

You are making a LOT of assumptions that hurt my heart just hearing. All these “what if” questions are taking you further from reality and into some warped rabbit hole. You are worried about getting your child sealed to YOUR new spouse? This child is HIS child as well! I have a “what if’ for you: What if he kept going to church after your divorce, got temple-worthy, and found a wonderful LDS woman to remarry before you found someone else to remarry? Would YOU allow your child to be sealed to your husband and his new wife?  I’m sorry if this sounds harsh, I just want you to understand exactly where these seemingly innocent thoughts WILL LEAD you if you continue to feed them: to cruel and hurtful actions. They aren’t helping you.

Rip out the roots of anger that have planted themselves in your heart. It is choking the roots of love that you planted years ago and that love is dying. I’ve heard stories of people who have married quickly and they stayed married. The rush to marry is only negative because you have judged it to be so. If you are constantly building and reinforcing your marriage, it doesn’t matter how rocky it was when it started.  Focus on loving your husband and family in the present. I hope the best for your family, whatever that may be.  

[jmom]

@anatess2 I don't understand your question, I guess. I felt I was in love with him when we were married, not sure how else to explain that?

[jmom]

Thank you to everyone who gave constructive advice and spoke to me the way they would to their daughter or other loved one. 

[zil]

1 hour ago, jmom said:

Thank you to everyone who gave constructive advice and spoke to me the way they would to their daughter or other loved one. 

jmom, two things (said in hope that you it will help you find value in places where it may be painful to dig value out - both in this thread and in your life - truly, said with the best of intent; apologies if the words don't convey that):

1) Even though it's hard, please consider that those posts which seem harsh may well have the exact counsel the poster would give to a loved one, and may well be the exact counsel you need.  If necessary, set them aside for a day and read them again analytically after letting the emotions pass, ignoring whatever attitude you perceive, and looking strictly for the ideas regarding how to be successful in your (or any) marriage.  (I submit that it's only your youth (yes, compared to a lot of us, you're very, very young) that makes them seem painful when from the other side, they're just factual.)

2) Be patient and learn from @anatess2 - she can teach you a great deal, in my opinion, about what it actually means to love someone (hint: it's not that wild free-fall the movies and songs call "falling in love" - that's just hormones, and fabulous as that feeling is, the hormones come and go and aren't actually love).

Edited July 19, 2018 by zil

[Sunday21]

7 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

Marriage is for the adults in my opinion.  Pretending to be married for your kids sake is not good.  Either fix what is wrong, or move on. It would be better for the kid to have two sets of happy parents than one set of unhappy parents.   Of course the best solution is one set of happy parents.

. It would be better for the kid to have two sets of happy parents than one set of unhappy parents.   Of course the best solution is one set of happy parents.

Chasing happiness does not lead to happiness. You end up with Fear of Missing Out. 

[jmom]

@zil I can definitely take the truth, but personal attacks like "sniveling little girl" and offensive, untrue comments like "He gave up his life at 24 to marry the woman he was sleeping with" and suggesting I only married my husband out of guilt and "wanting to stay in town" (uh, no) are totally unnecessary. You can be honest and tactful at the same time, and often will be given more consideration when doing so. I may be very young, but I certainly have been through a lot of emotional damage and hoped just a peep into my marriage thus far would help explain why I may feel so hopeless. For some, it was perfect ammunition to call me weak and selfish in between their other opinions about why I'm so terrible, even though they don't know me. I appreciate your comments and your compassion, and will consider every piece of constructive feedback on this thread. 

Edited July 19, 2018 by jmom

[Bad Karma]

2 hours ago, jmom said:

@zil I can definitely take the truth, but personal attacks like "sniveling little girl" and offensive, untrue comments like "He gave up his life at 24 to marry the woman he was sleeping with" and suggesting I only married my husband out of guilt and "wanting to stay in town" (uh, no) are totally unnecessary. You can be honest and tactful at the same time, and often will be given more consideration when doing so. I may be very young, but I certainly have been through a lot of emotional damage and hoped just a peep into my marriage thus far would help explain why I may feel so hopeless. For some, it was perfect ammunition to call me weak and selfish in between their other opinions about why I'm so terrible, even though they don't know me. I appreciate your comments and your compassion, and will consider every piece of constructive feedback on this thread. 

[zil]

7 hours ago, jmom said:

I appreciate your comments and your compassion, and will consider every piece of constructive feedback on this thread. 

My point was that I have found it useful, if painful, to consider all feedback, even when, at first glance, it didn't appear constructive.

This may be off the deep end, or perhaps you won't see the connection, but this devotional explains what I mean, in another way:

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/lynn-g-robbins_be-100-percent-responsible/

[zil]

4 hours ago, Bad Karma said:

Will you all think less of me if I confess that the first 3 seasons of Castle are some of my favorite TV?  (This isn't to say it represents anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, just that I think they're kinda hilarious, and I really like the characters.)

[Vort]

33 minutes ago, zil said:

Will you all think less of me if I confess that the first 3 seasons of Castle are some of my favorite TV?  (This isn't to say it represents anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, just that I think they're kinda hilarious, and I really like the characters.)

Well, not too much less of you. I think that Firefly is almost certainly the best TV sci-fi space opera ever made, bar none. And it's very firmly telestial material.

[zil]

16 minutes ago, Vort said:

Well, not too much less of you. I think that Firefly is almost certainly the best TV sci-fi space opera ever made, bar none. And it's very firmly telestial material.

Yes, Firefly was good stuff - and just started getting really good when they cancelled it.  There should have been more.  I didn't actually discover it until after it was cancelled.  (And the episode of Castle where he dresses up in his Firefly costume was fun for those of us who recognized what was happening.)

Edited July 19, 2018 by zil

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, jmom said:

@anatess2 I don't understand your question, I guess. I felt I was in love with him when we were married, not sure how else to explain that?

I apologize if my question seemed vague.  English is not my first language and sometimes what seems so clear to me actually is muddy.  So, my question simply is.... what do you mean by Love?  What is Love to you?   If you say you're In Love, that implies you can also be Out Love...  That is problematic.

[NeuroTypical]

48 minutes ago, Vort said:

Well, not too much less of you. I think that Firefly is almost certainly the best TV sci-fi space opera ever made, bar none. And it's very firmly telestial material.

Honestly, the fact that Fox TV executives shot the thing in the head just as it was gaining traction, put an eternal crown on it's greatness.  Good show about what happens after the good guys lose and bad guys win, gains most of its popularity after it's cancelled by the bad guys. 

[mrmarklin]

Jmom

Seems like you have a fairly normal marriage with similar problems to most people. I don’t believe, given the circumstances of your situation, that you will find the grass any greener by leaving the marriage. It does no appear unsalvageable. 

You have a child, and the child’s welfare should be your main focus. For both of you. God would want the child raised in an LDS home as far as possible. And it does seem possible. Your husband has joined the church, so he has/is making some effort. You should meet him halfway. 

 

Try going back to counseling 

Edited July 19, 2018 by mrmarklin

[jmom]

@anatess2 I believe there's a difference between "loving" someone and being "in love" with someone. One is general, the other is romantic. I won't ever stop "loving" him, much like I'd never stop loving my child or siblings, if that's what you're getting at, but I haven't felt "in love" with him for at least 2 years now. I didn't choose to feel that way, it just happened over time. You can absolutely choose to love someone but I don't believe you can choose to be IN LOVE with someone. That's what I am currently struggling with in my situation.