Why is coffee or tea forbidden?


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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Same reason people do things like... wear caps, veils, scapulars, avoid crop tops, swearing, fornicating, etc. etc.  Also same reason I take off my shoes when I enter my mother's house and not throw away used Solo cups.  Because I promised.

I appreciate your comment.

 

Styln

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On 7/20/2018 at 2:22 AM, TheOne13 said:

Why is coffee or tea forbidden but it's okay to drink things like Coke?

Culture I believe had more to do with it than anything.   It is quite plain that DC89 was not given as a commandment.   It evolved into one around the turn of the century.   Bro Joseph drank wine.   Brigham Young owned Breweries and distilleries, and actually had a monopoly of sorts in distribution.   The brethren evolved into including it as a temple recommend requirement.   It is a great promise of health,  but for this life, or?    Because I’ve known a few very Christlike men that lived the Word of Wisdom, yet died young of deseases.  

   So now it’s a commandment.   But I know many who believe tattoos are breaking a commandment, have more than one earring, etc, etc.   I often wonder about those people that may have an occasional glass of wine, and are in good health, and the Bros and Sis’s  that are 350lbs.....which is following the words of wisdom.........

Culture and Policy often are masked with a tag of being doctrine.......

disclaimer:   I am NOT encouraging anyone to break the WoW.    It is a great promise offered to us by the Lord.   

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8 hours ago, SilentOne said:

Plus, if you truly believe you were commanded to do (or not do) something by a loving deity who... 

...specifically states "not by way of commandment or constraint," then you may be trying to put words in God's mouth. 

Still wondering why I Corinthians 11:15 doesn't get the same treatment from the Church.  We should shun women who deliberately cast off a glory given to them by God for convenience or vanity. 

Edited by NightSG
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7 hours ago, NightSG said:

...specifically states "not by way of commandment or constraint," then you may be trying to put words in God's mouth. 

Still wondering why I Corinthians 11:15 doesn't get the same treatment from the Church.  We should shun women who deliberately cast off a glory given to them by God for convenience or vanity. 

Yeah. It's strange that the restored Church of Jesus Christ doesn't operate like the Dead Prophet Society.

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8 hours ago, NightSG said:

...specifically states "not by way of commandment or constraint," then you may be trying to put words in God's mouth. 

Still wondering why I Corinthians 11:15 doesn't get the same treatment from the Church.  We should shun women who deliberately cast off a glory given to them by God for convenience or vanity. 

There's also a fair amount of debate about whether Paul actually wrote 1 Cor. 11:2-16.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians#Authorship

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9 hours ago, NightSG said:

Still wondering why I Corinthians 11:15 doesn't get the same treatment from the Church.  We should shun women who deliberately cast off a glory given to them by God for convenience or vanity.

Where does it say anything about shunning?

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8 minutes ago, Vort said:

Where does it say anything about shunning?

That was his own personal addition.  His way of saying every woman should never cut her hair so that it drags along on the floor behind her.  Kind of like some people think expired singles should be kicked out, or whatever.  We humans can't have enough ways to reject each other, you know.

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37 minutes ago, zil said:

That was his own personal addition.  His way of saying every woman should never cut her hair so that it drags along on the floor behind her.  Kind of like some people think expired singles should be kicked out, or whatever.  We humans can't have enough ways to reject each other, you know.

Off topic, but a few of my friends have asked me about shunning. Do we do that?  I know JWs do.

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17 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Off topic, but a few of my friends have asked me about shunning. Do we do that?  I know JWs do.

The Church does not do that.  Whether individuals do that of their own accord is up to the individual, but it clearly goes against the gospel:

Quote

3 Nephi 18:25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather have commanded that ye should come unto me, that ye might feel and see; even so shall ye do unto the world; and whosoever breaketh this commandment suffereth himself to be led into temptation.

...

30 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out from among you, but ye shall minister unto him and shall pray for him unto the Father, in my name; and if it so be that he repenteth and is baptized in my name, then shall ye receive him, and shall minister unto him of my flesh and blood.

...

32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.

(see also the footnotes from those verses, and I know there are other places that say the same thing in one way or another - the Lord does not want us kicking people out, shunning people, etc.)

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I have heard stories about people who were shunned/kicked-out/declared 'dead to me' by various church families, after the person telling the story supposedly came out of the closet, or announced they weren't going on a mission, or married outside the church, or whatever.  I've never witnessed this personally, or encountered one of the shunners.  It is a distinct possibility that all the stories I've heard have come from overly-melodramatic exaggerators with big chips on their shoulders and plenty of room to mature into someone who can deal with reality.

I have, on the other hand, personally encountered many parents/peers/friends who have put agonizing amounts of energy into keeping communication lines open with individuals who have left the fold/turned critical/started openly sinning/etc.  "You can always come home", "We miss you and love you, please come back", and a ton of similar statements.  Out of the ones I've personally witnessed, there was zero kicking out, and all angry leaving.

Something we often do - agonize about whether we should attend someone's same-sex wedding.  We're all over the place in our individual answers.  Everything from "I'll officiate" to "I'll loudly protest and go call everyone urging them to do the same". 

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6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have heard stories about people who were shunned/kicked-out/declared 'dead to me' by various church families, after the person telling the story supposedly came out of the closet, or announced they weren't going on a mission, or married outside the church, or whatever.  I've never witnessed this personally, or encountered one of the shunners.  It is a distinct possibility that all the stories I've heard have come from overly-melodramatic exaggerators with big chips on their shoulders and plenty of room to mature into someone who can deal with reality.

I have, on the other hand, personally encountered many parents/peers/friends who have put agonizing amounts of energy into keeping communication lines open with individuals who have left the fold/turned critical/started openly sinning/etc.  "You can always come home", "We miss you and love you, please come back", and a ton of similar statements.  Out of the ones I've personally witnessed, there was zero kicking out, and all angry leaving.

Something we often do - agonize about whether we should attend someone's same-sex wedding.  We're all over the place in our individual answers.  Everything from "I'll officiate" to "I'll loudly protest and go call everyone urging them to do the same". 

I think that when it comes to parents, they are responsible for their children's gospel instruction and would therefore urge passionately for the children to follow moral principles.  I believe it is not shunning that parents do but rather a desperate attempt at establishing some sort of consequence.  At the same time, children who go a different route than what their parents want do it because they believe it is right and therefore, want their parents to believe the same otherwise they feel they are shunned.

But that's just my take on the matter.

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11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have heard stories about people who were shunned/kicked-out/declared 'dead to me' by various church families, after the person telling the story supposedly came out of the closet, or announced they weren't going on a mission, or married outside the church, or whatever.  I've never witnessed this personally, or encountered one of the shunners.  It is a distinct possibility that all the stories I've heard have come from overly-melodramatic exaggerators with big chips on their shoulders and plenty of room to mature into someone who can deal with reality.

I have, on the other hand, personally encountered many parents/peers/friends who have put agonizing amounts of energy into keeping communication lines open with individuals who have left the fold/turned critical/started openly sinning/etc.  "You can always come home", "We miss you and love you, please come back", and a ton of similar statements.  Out of the ones I've personally witnessed, there was zero kicking out, and all angry leaving.

Something we often do - agonize about whether we should attend someone's same-sex wedding.  We're all over the place in our individual answers.  Everything from "I'll officiate" to "I'll loudly protest and go call everyone urging them to do the same". 

It's just heartbreaking when there is estrangement leading to a break in communication between parent-adult child. Thank God it's never happened in my life for long periods of time, but I know of families who have reached that level. Very sad. 

Edited by MormonGator
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57 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

So....why does everyone ignore @askandanswer then? 

Who?

3 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

There's also a fair amount of debate about whether Paul actually wrote 1 Cor. 11:2-16.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians#Authorship

Well, I'm not the one who produced an Inspired Version that copies most of that text verbatim, and makes only grammar and punctuation changes to the rest.  Seems "this part is wrong; fix it right or leave it out entirely" would be a pretty easy and significant thing to inspire given the attention paid to such minor things as changing colons to semicolons.

1 hour ago, zil said:

The Church does not do that.

Really?

Quote

 

shun
verb
persistently avoid, ignore, or reject (someone or something) through antipathy or caution.
synonyms:    avoid, evade, eschew, steer clear of, shy away from, fight shy of, keep one's distance from, give a wide berth to, have nothing to do with;


 

You're telling me that Church leadership has never given clear instructions to avoid or ignore various types of people?

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You've got the dictionary definition there, NightSG, but that's not what we're talking about.  "Shunning" is the formal or semi-formal ostracizing of a member of a group who breaks some boundary and 'earns' the shunning.

And yes indeed, the Jehovah's Witnesses do it.  You can read all about it on their website

Compare to our website on the topic of church discipline and excommunication.  Some similarities, some differences. 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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34 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

You've got the dictionary definition there, 

And that's what the word means.  Period.  If we're going to redefine things for convenience, we might as well redefine "drinks" to not include coffee or tea and enjoy them to our hearts' content.

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11 minutes ago, NightSG said:

And that's what the word means.  Period.  If we're going to redefine things for convenience, we might as well redefine "drinks" to not include coffee or tea and enjoy them to our hearts' content.

It's not Period.  There is context.  The context of the conversation stems from religious shunning.  The question asked was about religious shunning.  It even gives JW as an example of a religion that does it.  So it's not a redefinition but rather your comments taking it out of context.

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have heard stories about people who were shunned/kicked-out/declared 'dead to me' by various church families, after the person telling the story supposedly came out of the closet, or announced they weren't going on a mission, or married outside the church, or whatever.  I've never witnessed this personally, or encountered one of the shunners.  It is a distinct possibility that all the stories I've heard have come from overly-melodramatic exaggerators with big chips on their shoulders and plenty of room to mature into someone who can deal with reality.

I have, on the other hand, personally encountered many parents/peers/friends who have put agonizing amounts of energy into keeping communication lines open with individuals who have left the fold/turned critical/started openly sinning/etc.  "You can always come home", "We miss you and love you, please come back", and a ton of similar statements.  Out of the ones I've personally witnessed, there was zero kicking out, and all angry leaving.

Something we often do - agonize about whether we should attend someone's same-sex wedding.  We're all over the place in our individual answers.  Everything from "I'll officiate" to "I'll loudly protest and go call everyone urging them to do the same". 

The man whom impregnated my mother gave my “inheritance” to my younger brother (8years younger) after he returned from his Mission.  After I had worked so long and improved it during the 10 years I ran the Business, and I never saw it coming.   Two months after his return from the mission field my Dad walked in with my brother and let me know he was my new Boss, that it was his business now, it was his reward for going on a mission, something I didn’t do.  I left that day and never returned.   Business does not exist any more, hurts me  30 years later still. 

One thing I truly dislike is the thought I might actually be sealed to that individual, and that is not good for my soul.

Sucks......

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5 minutes ago, Pressing Forward said:

The man whom impregnated my mother gave my “inheritance” to my younger brother (8years younger) after he returned from his Mission.  After I had worked so long and improved it during the 10 years I ran the Business, and I never saw it coming.   Two months after his return from the mission field my Dad walked in with my brother and let me know he was my new Boss, that it was his business now, it was his reward for going on a mission, something I didn’t do.  I left that day and never returned.   Business does not exist any more, hurts me  30 years later still. 

One thing I truly dislike is the thought I might actually be sealed to that individual, and that is not good for my soul.

Sucks......

That is so wrong on so many levels....

I'm sorry @Pressing Forward.

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:

You're telling me that Church leadership has never given clear instructions to avoid or ignore various types of people?

Who? You mean like vocal anti-Mormons who openly attack the Church and its membership? If so, you're being dishonest in your use of terms. If not, you will have to explain (maybe in small words, so that I'm sure to understand) exactly whom you believe the Church has "shunned".

You know perfectly well that in a religious context, "shunning" is the formal ostracization of a member of the religious community from his or her (former) congregation. The Jehovah's Witnesses and the Amish are two of the more obvious examples of religious groups that engage in this practice. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not and (to my knowledge) never has practiced any type of formal "shunning". If individuals have done so, it has been against the clear teachings of the Church, not because of those teachings.

I am confident that you already know this, so I do not understand the reason for your blatantly false claim. What points are you trying to score?

Edited by Vort
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12 minutes ago, Pressing Forward said:

The man whom impregnated my mother gave my “inheritance” to my younger brother (8years younger) after he returned from his Mission.  After I had worked so long and improved it during the 10 years I ran the Business, and I never saw it coming.   Two months after his return from the mission field my Dad walked in with my brother and let me know he was my new Boss, that it was his business now, it was his reward for going on a mission, something I didn’t do.  I left that day and never returned.   Business does not exist any more, hurts me  30 years later still. 

One thing I truly dislike is the thought I might actually be sealed to that individual, and that is not good for my soul.

Sucks......

I'm sorry for your bitterness, and I believe I understand where you're coming from. You have my sympathy.

Consider that your father's business was his, to dispose of as he saw fit, and not yours. He saw fit to give the business to whom he may have believed to be his "faithful" son, who then apparently flew it into the ground. Bummer for everyone. But it is only money. Your familial relationships extend (or should extend) far beyond that. If your father was mistaken in his ham-fisted attempts to use his children's inheritance to blunderingly try to teach a moral lesson, that doesn't mean he did not care about you, or that all else that he did (or tried to do) for you was meaningless.

In any case, he will answer to God for his actions and the reasoning behind his decisions. He will not answer to you for them, because that was between him and God. You obviously feel wronged, so I hope for your own sake that you can forgive him.

For myself, I plan to divide up any inheritance H that I may leave to my N children into equal shares of H/N, exactly to avoid these types of hard feelings.

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1 hour ago, NightSG said:
2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So....why does everyone ignore @askandanswer then? 

Who?

Darn it!  I was going to do that!

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

<shunning definition>

Really?

Different definition.

Quote

In a religious context, shunning is a formal decision by a denomination or a congregation to cease interaction with an individual or a group, and follows a particular set of rules. It differs from, but may be associated with, excommunication.

There is no "formal" shunning by the Church as an organization as described above.  But anybody will tend to ignore or stay away from people who bring more negativity to a group.  That's just normal.

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