Why is coffee or tea forbidden?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's just heartbreaking when there is estrangement leading to a break in communication between parent-adult child. Thank God it's never happened in my life for long periods of time, but I know of families who have reached that level. Very sad. 

Gator, I'm right here, dude.

[askandanswer]

8 hours ago, MormonGator said:

So....why does everyone ignore @askandanswer then? 

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we you hid as it were your faces from him; he was despised, and we you esteemed him not.:(

Matthew 27:14 14  And he answered him to never a word; 

 

[NightSG]

 

 

5 hours ago, Vort said:

Who? You mean like vocal anti-Mormons who openly attack the Church and its membership? If so, you're being dishonest in your use of terms. If not, you will have to explain (maybe in small words, so that I'm sure to understand) exactly whom you believe the Church has "shunned".

"We should associate with those who, like us, are planning not for temporary convenience, shallow goals, or narrow ambition—but rather with those who value the things that matter most, even eternal objectives."

An exclusive directive as to who we should associate with is an equally clear statement of who we should not associate with - and thus shun.  And frankly, with that wording, it's so open as to include virtually anyone; having at least one "shallow goal" or "narrow ambition" is a pretty normal feature of human consciousness, making it an open invitation to shun, or to recommend shunning, anyone at will.  Three different HTs and two of my own former HT companions used the same quote at different times to tell me I should completely avoid different women I was dating at the time.

5 hours ago, Vort said:

You know perfectly well that in a religious context, "shunning" is the formal ostracization of a member of the religious community from his or her (former) congregation.

You know perfectly well that the word barely even exists outside of a religious context.  Narrowing the definition to be able to say "we don't do this" is the sort of thing that supports the "cult" perception.

5 hours ago, Vort said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not and (to my knowledge) never has practiced any type of formal "shunning".

"No formal practice" sounds like you're making a last ditch attempt to defend against a worker's comp claim where somebody got hurt doing something a half dozen other workers just testified has been going on since the beginning.  

[lostinwater]

27 minutes ago, NightSG said:

An exclusive directive as to who we should associate with is an equally clear statement of who we should not associate with - and thus shun.  And frankly, with that wording, it's so open as to include virtually anyone; having at least one "shallow goal" or "narrow ambition" is a pretty normal feature of human consciousness, making it an open invitation to shun, or to recommend shunning, anyone at will.  Three different HTs and two of my own former HT companions used the same quote at different times to tell me I should completely avoid different women I was dating at the time.

+1

There's a lot of subtle messaging (ie image below, focus on temple marriage, having "good" friends, etc.,) that makes clear statements more or less unnecessary.  

And, if there is a culture in which most people believe that the evil world is out to get them, things are getting worse, people are persecuting us, that the end of the world is just around the corner - then ever and ever more subtle statements can be used while achieving the same effect.

In fairness, i am not sure it's possible to have an "ideal" to which any kind of importance is attached, involve human beings, and avoid having something that feels like shunning happen every time that ideal is breached in ways the group deems as an unacceptable.  

And if the person believes the ideal is God-sanctioned, you can gain some super serious leverage with verses like Matthew 10:37.  

i'm not one who advocates throwing out ideals and societal norms (though anyone is welcome to accuse me of this again if they really just have to) - but the more you focus on the ideals, the more alienated people who don't adhere to them are going to feel.  That's not a criticism - just an observation.  i mean, i have ideals just like everyone else - and i don't except myself from my own observations.

And the idea that people accept the person but not the sin presumes there is consensus on the part of both parties in terms of what constitutes person and what constitutes sin - usually not the case, from what i've seen.

[NeuroTypical]

16 hours ago, Pressing Forward said:

Two months after his return from the mission field my Dad walked in with my brother and let me know he was my new Boss, that it was his business now, it was his reward for going on a mission, something I didn’t do.  I left that day and never returned.

I have gathered many, many, many stories like Pressing Forward's, where a child disagrees with what the parents decide to do with their stuff, and ends the relationship.  Many of these stories include some pretty jerky actions by parents, IMO.)

But I wouldn't call this an example of a parent shunning.  If anyone is shunning anyone, it would be Pressing Forward shunning his/her family, what with the leaving and never returning.  But no, not an example of NightSG's question: "You're telling me that Church leadership has never given clear instructions to avoid or ignore various types of people?"  Surely, no church leader every counseled family-owned businesses on how to pass on ownership to their children based on churchy-type actions.  Sounds like a decision the parents made.

(I get it, by the way.  Sounds like you poured your heart into the family business.  Sounds like a very hurtful blow.  Not judging you, just tying your story into NightSG's question.)

[NeuroTypical]

10 hours ago, NightSG said:

Quote

You know perfectly well that in a religious context, "shunning" is the formal ostracization of a member of the religious community from his or her (former) congregation.

You know perfectly well that the word barely even exists outside of a religious context. 

I'm thinking that religious use might have been in the majority in prior centuries, but these days, that's hardly true.  

A quick Facebook search on the word gives us Randi Rhoades (left wing's answer to right wing AM radio) #ShunAndShame show - all politics, zero religion.  

Google provides a crapton more.

Poor, poor Lt. Worf.  At least they called it "discommodation" instead of shunning.

Edited September 28, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[NightSG]

14 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

A quick Facebook search on the word gives us Randi Rhoades (left wing's answer to right wing AM radio) #ShunAndShame show - all politics, zero religion.

You really don't recognize self-worship as a religion? 

[anatess2]

10 hours ago, NightSG said:

"We should associate with those who, like us, are planning not for temporary convenience, shallow goals, or narrow ambition—but rather with those who value the things that matter most, even eternal objectives."

An exclusive directive as to who we should associate with is an equally clear statement of who we should not associate with - and thus shun.  And frankly, with that wording, it's so open as to include virtually anyone; having at least one "shallow goal" or "narrow ambition" is a pretty normal feature of human consciousness, making it an open invitation to shun, or to recommend shunning, anyone at will.  Three different HTs and two of my own former HT companions used the same quote at different times to tell me I should completely avoid different women I was dating at the time.

This is so disingenuous.

I teach my kids to choose carefully who they hang out with.  They should avoid drunks, smokers, druggies, and those who cuss every sentence.  Yes, they have those people in high school.  And you say that's shunning those people?  That is crazy talk.

 

10 hours ago, NightSG said:

You know perfectly well that the word barely even exists outside of a religious context.  Narrowing the definition to be able to say "we don't do this" is the sort of thing that supports the "cult" perception.

Context.  You didn't start the conversation.  Somebody else did and that start of the conversation was specific to the religious practice of shunning like the JW's do.  You don't get to expand that definition outside of its context and accuse us of "narrowing the definition".  That's also crazy talk.

 

10 hours ago, NightSG said:

"No formal practice" sounds like you're making a last ditch attempt to defend against a worker's comp claim where somebody got hurt doing something a half dozen other workers just testified has been going on since the beginning.  

So, you're saying... because there are Catholic priests who are pedophiles that the Catholic Church practice pedophilia?  That's crazy talk.

 

 

 

 

 

[Iggy]

On 7/20/2018 at 5:22 AM, TheOne13 said:

Why is coffee or tea forbidden but it's okay to drink things like Coke?

Goodness !  @TheOne13 your topic really got derailed did't it? 😲

I have read all four pages of responses. Let's go over D&C 89 okay, because the Word of Wisdom is about more than just NOT drinking HOT DRINKS. Now sit back, and be prepared for quite a LONG read.

Quote

Section 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently, he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result.

1–9, The use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks is proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A Word of Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

 

D&C 89 was given as a Revelation in answer to Joseph Smith Jr's query regarding the use of tobacco in their meetings. But as the Lord so often does, He included a lot more. Also note that He said: For the benefit for the council of high priests, the saints in Zion. Sent by greeting, not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation. Given for a principle with promise.

The first No aka Do Not is in verse 5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him. 

Wait - the last part says: only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.  Then verse 6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make. Of Your Own Make. Many years ago I was taught in a Gospel Doctrines class that this was because the enemies of Joseph Smith Jr and the fledgling church membership had put poison in the wine that they (the LDS church) was going to buy for use in their sacramental services.

Then comes verse 7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies. Before a field surgeon makes an incision on a body, he has the area "washed" with alcohol. Rubbing alcohol, vodka, whiskey, etc. AKA strong drinks. Why? To disinfect the area. Also if soap and HOT water are not available, he will also wash his hands, and instruments with "strong drink".

Now on to the second No aka Do Not is in verse 8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.  My father should have been a Veterinarian because of his knowledge and skill with animals - pretty much all animals. In watching him tend to my Uncles cows and horses, Daddy would scrub his hands with HOT water and plenty of soap AND wash his face and mouth area too. Why? Because he was a heavy pipe smoker. When I asked him why, he said that the Nicotine in the tobacco he smoked could make the animal sicker or die IF enough of it got into the animals blood system. That in  his day (meaning youth to about 30 yo) the Animal Dr's injected Nicotine into the animals vein to euthanize it. BUT they used tobacco leaves on the skin/hide for other hurts that were not open, aka bruises - swollen joints, etc.

In verse 9 the Lord reemphasizes the hot drink are not for the body or belly. Again my Daddy was a cowboy. In his youth (from 12-22) he would help the ranchers in his area round up their cattle which meant they went far and wide and spent several nights out under the stars as ALL of the ranchers gathered the cattle, then brought them in. The hot drinks, which was coffee and sometimes chicory root, was cooked over an open fire and it was Boiling Hot. These cowboys drank it HOT and it scalded their mouths, tongue and throat. What the Lord knew and Man did not was that coffee contained harmful substancesand THAT is bad for the body. The following quote if from https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-29-the-lords-law-of-health?lang=eng

Quote

The Lord also counsels us against the use of “hot drinks” (D&C 89:9). Church leaders have said that this means coffee and tea, which contain harmful substances. We should avoid all drinks that contain harmful substances.

I'll end here for the time being as I have to get to a Dr's appointment, but I shall be back to go over the rest of D&C 89.

[Pressing Forward]

12 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I have gathered many, many, many stories like Pressing Forward's, where a child disagrees with what the parents decide to do with their stuff, and ends the relationship.  Many of these stories include some pretty jerky actions by parents, IMO.)

But I wouldn't call this an example of a parent shunning.  If anyone is shunning anyone, it would be Pressing Forward shunning his/her family, what with the leaving and never returning.  But no, not an example of NightSG's question: "You're telling me that Church leadership has never given clear instructions to avoid or ignore various types of people?"  Surely, no church leader every counseled family-owned businesses on how to pass on ownership to their children based on churchy-type actions.  Sounds like a decision the parents made.

(I get it, by the way.  Sounds like you poured your heart into the family business.  Sounds like a very hurtful blow.  Not judging you, just tying your story into NightSG's question.)

Let me clarify something.   I left the business that day and never returned.   I have a great relationship with my mother and siblings, the brother mentioned is a somewhat strained one though.   My Father is not welcome at my house and can pound sand.   I go by my Moms when he’s not home, or stay outside to visit.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Pressing Forward said:

Let me clarify something.   I left the business that day and never returned.   I have a great relationship with my mother and siblings, the brother mentioned is a somewhat strained one though.   My Father is not welcome at my house and can pound sand.   I go by my Moms when he’s not home, or stay outside to visit.

Half of me doesn't blame you one bit. The other half thinks your pride is leading you to destruction (at least the destruction of your parental relationship). Both halves agree that you would be better off figuring out how to forgive your father and move past this.

[anatess2]

2 hours ago, Pressing Forward said:

Let me clarify something.   I left the business that day and never returned.   I have a great relationship with my mother and siblings, the brother mentioned is a somewhat strained one though.   My Father is not welcome at my house and can pound sand.   I go by my Moms when he’s not home, or stay outside to visit.

 

36 minutes ago, Vort said:

Half of me doesn't blame you one bit. The other half thinks your pride is leading you to destruction (at least the destruction of your parental relationship). Both halves agree that you would be better off figuring out how to forgive your father and move past this.

Isn’t this situation exactly like the good son in the parable of the prodigal son?

Might be time to ponder and pray over that particular scripture.

[Iggy]

 

Quote

 

Section 89

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

 

Now to finish D&C 89

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—  

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving

This is a Good for you. All wholesome herbs. Herb & every fruit in the season to be used with prudence and thanksgiving. Fresh herbs are much tastier. Fruits in their season are ripe and don't cause stomach aches - like unripe apples.

12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.

14 All grain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

When all herbs, fruits, all grains, fruit of the vine whether in the ground or above the ground have not been used sparingly - we have depleted the land of nutrients by over growing the fruits of the land.Thus we have weakened the plants, we have also destroyed the creeping crawling bugs that fed on the plant eating bugs, totally wrecking the ecosystem.  We have turned to caging our animals that we use as food - overcrowding them - thus actually making them unfit to eat. The chickens got scrawny and the meat stringy - so man shot them up with hormones. Same with beef, pork, lamb.

The Lord is not telling us to be Vegetarians or Vegans. He has counseled us to eat the foods of the land in their SEASON, and to eat meat during winter, or of cold, or famine.

This last bit I feel he counseled regarding the meat during winter, or of cold or famine was that the homes didn't have freezers or refrigerators.  Home refrigerators were invented in 1913,  Iceboxes were in use where ice harvesting was, and ran from the mid-19th century until the 1930s, when the refrigerator was introduced into the home. Some meats are smoked to cure them also.

Have you noticed that nowhere has He given us fish to eat. Interesting isn't it?

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

Then comes the Lord's blessings starting with verse 18 through 21. As with all of the Lord's blessings, they hinge on us doing something first. Here it is keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments. Then comes the blessing for that - shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones.

 

Verse 19 - find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures.

 

Verse 20 - shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

 

Verse 21 - The final blessing from the Lord for our obedience ~ give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass , as the children of Israel, and not slay them.

I honestly feel that using the words forbidden to eat, forbidden to drink is wrong. I have read and re-read the entire D&C 89 and using the gift of discernment that the Lord has blessed me with, there is no forbidden meaning anywhere in this text. Benefit of council. Sent by greeting, not by commandment ro constraint, but by revelation. Showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days.

It was given for a "principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints"

So when you are asked by your Bishopric /Branch Presidency or Stake Presidency if you obey the Word of Wisdom, you need to consider ALL of D&C 89 - not just verses 5-9. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Iggy
to finish the sentence in Verse 21.

[NeuroTypical]

10 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Isn’t this situation exactly like the good son in the parable of the prodigal son?

Well, the prodigal son took his half and blew it on drugs and hookers, and ended up broke and hungry.  The situation here has there being no "half", and no indication that anyone is off engaged in riotous living.

So if you're going to compare the two, I don't know if it would be easier or harder to come back to dad and say sorry. 

[anatess2]

On 9/29/2018 at 11:44 AM, NeuroTypical said:

Well, the prodigal son took his half and blew it on drugs and hookers, and ended up broke and hungry.  The situation here has there being no "half", and no indication that anyone is off engaged in riotous living.

So if you're going to compare the two, I don't know if it would be easier or harder to come back to dad and say sorry. 

From what I understand, his brother ran the business to the ground.  But that's irrelevant.  The relevant part is that the good son, even as the father gave his inheritance away to the other son, is still required to remain the good son and love his father.  

My brother had ill relations with my dad from the time he was 16 to the day my dad died.  My dad thinks my brother is wrong, my brother thinks my dad is wrong and they both felt fully justified in their actions.  I'm looking at them thinking - what a waste when all they had to do was for one person to shed his pride and forgive the other.  Who cares who was wrong?