Rob Osborn Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) I have never liked the English proverb- "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Properly defining the phrase "good intentions" should mean "godly desire". The problem with the original phrase is that it can lead people in the false belief that a godly desire can lead one into hell. Nonsense! Good intentions or godlike desire is not how the devil works. Satan tries, according to mans weakness and sinful nature, to take away ones godly desire, diminishes or even squashes it out and replaces in its spot bad intentions or devilish desires. Everything the Nazis did for instance with the extermination of the Jews was solely based on bad intentions. Edited July 23, 2018 by Rob Osborn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 42 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: I have never liked the English proverb- "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Properly defining the phrase "good intentions" should mean "godly desire". The problem with the original phrase is that it can lead people in the false belief that a godly desire can lead one into hell. Nonsense! Good intentions or godlike desire is not how the devil works. Satan tries, according to mans weakness and sinful nature, to take away ones godly desire, diminishes or even squashes it out and replaces in its spot bad intentions or devilish desires. Everything the Nazis did for instance with the extermination of the Jews was solely based on bad intentions. I always understood it as meaning “I want to do good, but life is too hard. Instead of going to church and becoming a better person, I’m just going to stay home, drink some beer, and watch football” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 I believe there are many problems with individuals trying to figure out what is good, what is justified and what is evil. Plus here are other dimensions - for example Jesus cautioned concerning those that look good on the outside but are rotten on the inside. We are also told that G-d judges by what is in our heart rather than what others see in appearances (example Samuel choosing David over his brothers). The forum has discussed ad nauseam Eve's intention in partaking of the forbidden fruit. We can understand that Eve was beguiled (which would indicate that she was convinced partaking was a "good" thing. Perhaps the point is that people can make mistakes and cause trouble for themselves and others despite that their intention was good - at least from their point of view. In the larger religious context - history is full of those intending to be obedient to G-d but in reality were acting in ignorance of truth. Some now believe that "Manifest Destiny" (disfranchising of Natives through out the Americas) is such an example. As I look back on my personal life - I was in the army during the Vietnam conflict. On two separate occasions I had orders that would have taken me into combat in Vietnam. A few months ago I was ridding Uber and my driver was from Vietnam. His brother fought with the Vietcong but has since gotten over the horrors of that war (but not enough to come to the USA with the rest of his family). I am grateful that in my service I never was put into a position of taking someone else's life - perhaps even this Uber driver's brother. I am glad that I am not in a position to blame anyone that killed some of my friends and can find means to forgive. I do not know who is the candidate for Hell but if anyone can be argued to be a candidate - why not me. Or if it can be argued that someone (other than Christ) is not a candidate for Hell - why not me. It seems that without the Atonement - we all are worthy candidates of hell. I am convinced that #1. we all need to be more forgiving of others. And #2 - thankful and hopeful that G-ds mercy will save us and as many others as possible - despite our ignorant and mistaken intensions at the time. The Traveler lostinwater 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhold Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: I have never liked the English proverb- "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Properly defining the phrase "good intentions" should mean "godly desire". The problem with the original phrase is that it can lead people in the false belief that a godly desire can lead one into hell. Nonsense! Good intentions or godlike desire is not how the devil works. Satan tries, according to mans weakness and sinful nature, to take away ones godly desire, diminishes or even squashes it out and replaces in its spot bad intentions or devilish desires. Everything the Nazis did for instance with the extermination of the Jews was solely based on bad intentions. The proverb is more about unintended consequences than anything else. For example, officials in the UK decided that the best way to curb violence was to effectively ban personal ownership of firearms. All that did was cause people to start wielding knives. When knives were banned (yes, a chef carrying their kitchen knives could get stopped by the police), people started using household chemicals like borax and drain cleaner. Now there's talk of restricting that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) I always took the phrase to mean "It doesn't matter how good your intentions - have as many of them as you want. But without acting on them, or at least backing them up with character, you can easily end up in hell." Good intentions, including Godly desire, all by themselves, get swept away by any gentle breeze. Peer pressure, hunger, desire for love - anything can show up with a short-term shiny prize and win over a good intention. Edited July 23, 2018 by NeuroTypical Anddenex, wenglund and zil 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Fether said: I always understood it as meaning “I want to do good, but life is too hard. Instead of going to church and becoming a better person, I’m just going to stay home, drink some beer, and watch football” Your intention at first is having a desire to do good but then your intention changes to the opposite and your real intent is to do the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 56 minutes ago, Ironhold said: The proverb is more about unintended consequences than anything else. For example, officials in the UK decided that the best way to curb violence was to effectively ban personal ownership of firearms. All that did was cause people to start wielding knives. When knives were banned (yes, a chef carrying their kitchen knives could get stopped by the police), people started using household chemicals like borax and drain cleaner. Now there's talk of restricting that... Its a perfect example of why I believe its not a correct phrase to describe it. The initial intent was to do good or something "godly". So, they banned gun ownership. Whereas gun violence went down, other types of violonce went up. At that point they should have looked at the situation and said "hum...what can we do to make society happier or more spiritual to curb negativity, hatred and violence in society?". So, the real problem they have is treating a symptom rather than the cause. The initial "good intention" can change at anytime into a "bad intention" if an evil desire comes into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted July 23, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 53 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: I always took the phrase to mean "It doesn't matter how good your intentions - have as many of them as you want. But without acting on them, or at least backing them up with character, you can easily end up in hell." Good intentions, including Godly desire, all by themselves, get swept away by any gentle breeze. Peer pressure, hunger, desire for love - anything can show up with a short-term shiny prize and win over a good intention. But then its not an intention at all. Thats why I have a problem with the phrase. For instance, lets change the word "intention" to a common synonym such as- "purposes". So it becomes - "the road to hell is paved with good purposes". Whoa...why did the meaning change? Its because we arent using the word "intentions" correctly. Its defined as- "what one intends to do or bring about". It is directly connected with action and goals. Otherwise its just an idea. Ideas turn into intentions when action is applied. In the past tense we can thus talk about what the intention was in why something happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinwater Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 The more i read, the more i become convinced that the greatest evils in the world occur when people numb their consciences for the sake of a "greater good" - or at least a protection of some greater good. Except the "greater good" usually ends up not being good at all. And i guess it's in this light that i've always interpreted that statement. It seems the minds that plan the greatest evils cannot do the thing they know as evil. They have to peddle it as something else - as a good intention. And then other people who see the evil as a good intention are the unwitting engineers of the path to hell - or at least something hellish. Decisions held in conscientious opposition to one's own often get labeled as moral relativism that has to be fought or destroyed. But i think most people know the difference between what they want to do that is not right, and what is right even if they don't want to do it. i think we allow others to override our consciences at great peril - not just to ourselves, but to those around us. Though to hear the other interpretations is fascinating. Good thread @Rob Osborn! SilentOne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 Does anyone else feel like this thread is in need of some, er, electricity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said: But then its not an intention at all. Thats why I have a problem with the phrase. For instance, lets change the word "intention" to a common synonym such as- "purposes". So it becomes - "the road to hell is paved with good purposes". Whoa...why did the meaning change? Its because we arent using the word "intentions" correctly. Its defined as- "what one intends to do or bring about". It is directly connected with action and goals. Otherwise its just an idea. Ideas turn into intentions when action is applied. In the past tense we can thus talk about what the intention was in why something happened. The issue seems to be based in the interpretation of a single word. I think the proverb holds up quite nicely in its current way. We disagree on that, but we do agree on the concept of what it is trying to say. Heaven is for those that do good, not those that only want to do good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, zil said: Does anyone else feel like this thread is in need of some, er, electricity? There is a lack of controversy and arguments aren’t there... someone say something unpopular! Chik-fil-e is over rated! Sonic shakes are not that great! Hillary Clinton was the only qualified candidate for the presidency this country ever had! Trump is the greatest president this nation ever had! The Transformers movies were the greatest movies ever made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeuroTypical Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 I have been loyal to Chik-fil-a for decades. They absolutely rock. I once gave a live chewing report on a discussion forum, because someone had said their food was "gross" and "dared" me to "eat" there. The folks at my local CFA hosts a yearly daddy-daughter date night. I've ridden in horsedrawn carriages, and eaten waffle fries with an opera singer going at full volume within 10 feet of us. I shall defend their honor forever! EnGarde Fether! mordorbund, Midwest LDS and zil 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overwatch Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 Spock is my favorite Jedi. person0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 23, 2018 Report Share Posted July 23, 2018 That really wasn't the sort of electrical current I was thinking of. What happens when you combine alternating current and direct current? Seems like that leads somewhere... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 I always thought that the road to hell led to @zil's place. zil and Sunday21 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
askandanswer Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, zil said: What happens when you combine alternating current and direct current? Maybe it depends on the intention of the electricity and which path it chooses to travel on? Edited July 24, 2018 by askandanswer zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Fether said: The issue seems to be based in the interpretation of a single word. I think the proverb holds up quite nicely in its current way. We disagree on that, but we do agree on the concept of what it is trying to say. Heaven is for those that do good, not those that only want to do good. I'm not sure how that works. If one wants to do good but does evil instead then I'm not sure they really wanted to do good at all. I can see that a small part of them maybe wanted to do good but the larger part wanted to do evil. If we are truly following our greater will then truly wanting to do good always will lead to do good while wanting to do evil will always lead to do evil. Let's apply this logic to something simple such as losing weight. If a person truly wants to lose weight but doesn't do anything to lose that weight then in fact they never truly wanted it in the first place. They just are in a state of imagination- they want to lose weight all the while continuing to live the lifestyle of keeping it on. So, what they really wanted was to not lose weight. Now, let's throw in the word "intention" into the mix. If a person intends to lose weight they actually take steps to lose that weight. One cannot truly state they intend to lose weight but do nothing to actually do it. It would be a truer statement if they said "at a certain date my intention is to lose weight but for now it's not my current intentions." Thus, the same for the word "do" as it describes action. Wanting to "do" good means an intention or action to actually perform good works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Osborn Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 Just thought of a good analogy- we cannot say we love somebody if we do not show forth works of love towards that person. Like Christ said- if ye love me keep my commandments. Christ is basically saying we truly only can love Christ by keeping his commandments. If we don't keep the commandments then we can't say we love Christ and neither will Christ believe us if we don't keep his commandments. Thus- we cannot say we have good intentions if the direct result of those intentions is evil or brings evil to fruition. Thus also- it's impossible to say we want something but our will chooses the opposite anyway. It's a lie. I think this is a grand secret of the devil and we get so conditioned to the lies that he leads us to believe we can want good and be good all the while truly choosing evil over that good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 Remember that virtually no one says "I'm going to be evil" while twirling a cape and spinning their mustache. That only works in awful movies. Virtually everyone thinks/wants to do good. The road to hell is truly paved with good intentions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said: I'm not sure how that works. If one wants to do good but does evil instead then I'm not sure they really wanted to do good at all. I can see that a small part of them maybe wanted to do good but the larger part wanted to do evil. If we are truly following our greater will then truly wanting to do good always will lead to do good while wanting to do evil will always lead to do evil. Let's apply this logic to something simple such as losing weight. If a person truly wants to lose weight but doesn't do anything to lose that weight then in fact they never truly wanted it in the first place. They just are in a state of imagination- they want to lose weight all the while continuing to live the lifestyle of keeping it on. So, what they really wanted was to not lose weight. Now, let's throw in the word "intention" into the mix. If a person intends to lose weight they actually take steps to lose that weight. One cannot truly state they intend to lose weight but do nothing to actually do it. It would be a truer statement if they said "at a certain date my intention is to lose weight but for now it's not my current intentions." Thus, the same for the word "do" as it describes action. Wanting to "do" good means an intention or action to actually perform good works. My desire to finish the next quest in Fallout 4 sometimes is stronger than my desire to read scriptures. That morning when I got up, I intended to read scriptures, but I didn’t when the day finished. In such a scenario, I got closer to hell than to heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zil Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 1 hour ago, askandanswer said: Maybe it depends on the intention of the electricity and which path it chooses to travel on? And you're even Australian! Apparently I'm too subtle. Sigh. I'm just going to go curl up in my fiery pit and have a little nap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MormonGator Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fether said: Fallout 4 Great game, but the lack of a karma system takes away from the experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fether Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 14 minutes ago, MormonGator said: Great game, but the lack of a karma system takes away from the experience. So I’m told, but I never played the other ones so my view isn’t tainted. I absolutely love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmarklin Posted July 24, 2018 Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 Socialism always has good intentions. See where it leads in every case, so far. NeuroTypical 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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