receiving a fulness of joy

[Bill "Papa" Lee]

On July 23, 2018 at 8:42 PM, theplains said:

I had a question on this part of the 2009 Gospel Principles.

"If we passed our tests, we would receive the fulness of joy that our Heavenly Father has received.
(See D&C 93:30–34.)"   The 1997 GP has "our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father".

"We learned that if we placed our faith in Him, obeying His word and following His example, we would 
be exalted and become like our Heavenly Father. We would receive a fulness of joy."  The 1997 GP has
"our heavenly parents" instead of "our Heavenly Father."

"We learned that if we followed His plan, we would become like Him. We would be resurrected; we would 
have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just 
as He does (see D&C 132:19–20)."

Is there any LDS teaching which shows when this man (who became a God) first imagined he would be 
worshipped by his spirit children on the planet we now call Earth?

Thanks,
Jim

I think that many make this assumption, by extension of both direct doctrine, and indirect teachings. No matter what "status" we ever obtain, it to which we are exalted. God our Father, will still be our God, and we will, along with and posterity, spiritual or otherwise, and will still worship him in the name of Jesus Christ, as influenced by the Holy Spirit. Just as Adam and Eve, are the Father and Mother of all living, and Adam was made Lord over all the earth, to give a closer apology. But ever God the Father continues to gain more and more glory through his endless creation(s), so shall we someday become "like him", you know, "joint heirs with Christ", who, "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". We will become like him, but never his equal, where he will no longer be our God, but the potential to do all that he can do. It is just me, if becoming like God the Father is a byproduct of both Grace and Obedience, then so be it. But my goal is to be with him again, and be exalted as Jesus Christ is, I have no desire to be worshiped, except only as it pertains to being loved by all of my posterity.     

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:

I could be totally wrong and I'm only just getting into the beliefs of mormonism, but I thought LDS believed that Michael the Archangel was incarnated as Adam? Is that right?

“Our father Adam—that is our earthly father—the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being ‘Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,’ and…was not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.” — President Joseph F. Smith, President Anthon H. Lund, and President Charles W. Penrose.

Jesus however was a god before he was born upon the earth. 

[VelvetShadow]

14 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

“Our father Adam—that is our earthly father—the progenitor of the human race of man, stands at the head being ‘Michael the Archangel, the Ancient of Days,’ and…was not fashioned from earth like an adobe but begotten by his Father in Heaven.” — President Joseph F. Smith, President Anthon H. Lund, and President Charles W. Penrose.

Jesus however was a god before he was born upon the earth. 

Thanks.  So does that mean Jesus is in the celestial kingdom heaven with God or is Jesus somewhere else because he is a God too?  Especially if he was God before he was born on earth.

Im a bit confused as to where Jesus went in mormon theology, I thought if you achieved exhalation to Godhood you got to be a God of your own universe, not share this one with our God, because if that's right then there is more than one God in Celestial heaven and I thought there was only one God?

 I didn't think there could be two Gods in the Celestial heaven of this universe?

I thought mormons weren't supposed to pray to Jesus because he's not God, he's the son of God.  But if he achieved exaltation (and he had to of he IS Jesus) and he is in the Celestial heaven, there there is two Gods there, and if Jesus is a God now, then why can't mormons pray to him?

My brain is a crazy place I know, but all the same, these are real questions that are honestly very confusing and I'd really appreciate all your input.

Edited August 5, 2018 by VelvetShadow
spelling

[askandanswer]

Hi @VelvetShadow, others will answer your questions far more comprehensively and more thoughtfully than I, but off the top of my head, while sitting here eating my dinner, it occurs to me that we know almost nothing about the timeframe. There is reason to speculate that Christ only became perfect after His resurrection, which was possibly a little less than 2,000 years ago. Maybe it just takes longer than that to acquire/build/take possession of your own universe, so until then perhaps He's just staying at home with Mum and Dad. As to the number of godly beings currently in the celestial kingdom, I think that some of the current inhabitants are God the Father and God the son. I believe they share some similarities, and also have some differences, in identify and roles.

[BJ64]

@VelvetShadowThe way I understand it, we worship and pray to one god. That is God The Father. He is our Father and we are His children. 

I believe that exaulted beings who are the family of God could all live in the same location as a family. I see no reason why not. Regardless of how many gods there are in this universe or any other, we still worship only one god. 

We are told that this earth will become the celestial kingdom and that the righteous will inherit the earth. I presume that all of our God’s children who become gods like him will continue to live on this earth. 

@askandanswerChrist though being a god before being born into this earth was not perfected until his resurrection because his body was not yet perfected. In his earthly ministry He said be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. After his resurrection when he appeared to the Nephites he said be ye perfect even as I and your Father in heaven are perfect. 

Edited August 5, 2018 by BJ64

[theplains]

23 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Pew says 2/3 of those who leave Mormonism leave religion altogether - not just Jesus, but God! Is this an improvement for the Mormon soul? Is the Mormon more likely to "accidentally" find Jesus inside Mormonism or outside of it?

I have read and reread your response, but I haven't read your answer. Care to try again?

Answer to question 1 - I'm not sure why someone leaving Mormonism leaves religion altogether, but this is not an improvement
for that soul.

Answer to question 2 - Since the Mormon 'Jesus' is said to be the first spirit child of heavenly parents who became a God, then
that person who leaves Mormonism may "purposely" find the true Jesus outside of it.  The Apostle Paul warned of those preaching
a different Jesus.

Thanks,
Jim

[theplains]

9 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

But ever God the Father continues to gain more and more glory through his endless creation(s), so shall we someday become "like him", you know, "joint heirs with Christ", ...     

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received
the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit
itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-
heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

From what I understand of LDS theology, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (Gods), the sons of God, led by
the Spirit of God.  On the flip side. those not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God, and are not exalted.
If they are not the sons of God, that would make them the children of the devil, right?

Jim 

[Bill "Papa" Lee]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received
the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit
itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-
heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

From what I understand of LDS theology, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (Gods), the sons of God, led by
the Spirit of God.  On the flip side. those not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God, and are not exalted.
If they are not the sons of God, that would make them the children of the devil, right?

Jim 

Careful, you are not suggesting Calvinsim here are you? 

[theplains]

21 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Careful, you are not suggesting Calvinsim here are you? 

Hope not :-)

 

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

On 8/4/2018 at 9:42 AM, theplains said:

Various religions teach different versions of Jesus. For example, Jesus is only a prophet in Islam. For Jehovah's Witnesses
he is Michael the Archangel. From what I have read in LDS literature, Jesus became a God.

Jim

Jesus did not become a god. He is the God Jehovah, creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He came to Earth to suffer for the sins of the fallen universe and set the example for us to return to our Heavenly home.

Latter-Day Saints do not believe in the Nicaean Creed, created under duress so that the Romans could unify Christianity, by force. The creed is gibberish that contradicts itself throughout. God sitting on his own right hand etc. I could say more but really it would be a waste of everyone's time and I am not one to write twenty paragraph diatribes to suite my own vanity.

The Nicaean Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Edited August 8, 2018 by Emmanuel Goldstein

[Rob Osborn]

On 8/5/2018 at 11:43 AM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Careful, you are not suggesting Calvinsim here are you? 

 

On 8/5/2018 at 9:56 AM, theplains said:

Romans 8:14-17 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received
the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit
itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-
heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

From what I understand of LDS theology, the joint-heirs of Christ are exalted beings (Gods), the sons of God, led by
the Spirit of God.  On the flip side. those not led by the Spirit of God are not the sons of God, and are not exalted.
If they are not the sons of God, that would make them the children of the devil, right?

Jim 

In the end we either are accounted as the sons of God or sons of perdition.

[theplains]

On 8/8/2018 at 12:46 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Jesus did not become a god.

The Religion 430-431 Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual says Jesus became a God:

"As far as man is concerned, all things center in Christ. He is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and 
devotion to the truth he attained that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord
Omnipotent, while yet in his pre-existent state."

This shouldn't come as a surprise to you since Joseph Smith also taught Heavenly Father was a man
who became a God.

Jim

[VelvetShadow]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:46 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

Jesus did not become a god. He is the God Jehovah, creator of the Heavens and the Earth. He came to Earth to suffer for the sins of the fallen universe and set the example for us to return to our Heavenly home.

Latter-Day Saints do not believe in the Nicaean Creed, created under duress so that the Romans could unify Christianity, by force. The creed is gibberish that contradicts itself throughout. God sitting on his own right hand etc. I could say more but really it would be a waste of everyone's time and I am not one to write twenty paragraph diatribes to suite my own vanity.

The Nicaean Creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

I had no idea that mormons dont believe in the Nicene Creed

[Jane_Doe]

14 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I had no idea that mormons dont believe in the Nicene Creed

Zooming out to the big picture here:

LDS believe Truth comes from God, via revelation to His prophets, and consist of Scriptures and other statements.  The Creeds were not written this way, but instead were written by men and the contents decided on by popular vote / arguing.  These men 100% meant well and tried their hardest... but even the best intentioned men are not God and inevitably get something wrong.

 Hence LDS do not use these documents as being doctrinally authoritative or a litmus test for who is "Christian" (seeing people do both of those things actually really annoy me personally).   Again, none of these doesn't mean the writer's didn't mean well-- they're just not God.   I disagree with harshness of Emmanuel's description of the Nicene Creed.  If you want me to talk more about specific LDS disagreements with doctrinal points in the Creeds, I'd be happy to (like LDS more disagree with the Athanasian Creed than the Nicene).  

Edited August 11, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[BJ64]

1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:

I had no idea that mormons dont believe in the Nicene Creed

That is one of the main reasons that some “Christians” argue that Mormons are not Christians. 

[bytebear]

Two things come to mind. 1) the Bible talks of "in the beginning" but that is the beginning of the Earth, not the beginning of God, or even the sons of God, since they shouted for joy at the creation of the Earth.  So it was more than God that existed, since he had sons before the creation of the Earth.  Now we don't have any details from the Bible other than a few scant references to the Morning stars which represent either Jesus or Satan depending on the context.  But we have a lot of information about the promises of Man, that we will become as God, and share His throne.  LDS revelation gives more details, as do Joseph Smith's thoughts. But it's important to remember that LDS doctrine is contained only in canonized scripture. Everything else is speculation or elaboration.  And it's up to us, as individuals to receive a confirmation on every piece of truth revealed to us.  So, take it for what it's worth, but I feel quite confident in the LDS view on the pre-mortal existence, and our ultimate promises.

I really don't want to cite a bunch of scriptures but the topical guide has a lot of references to ponder. 
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg?lang=eng&letter=m

 

Start with Man, and go through the various sections on Man.

Edited August 13, 2018 by bytebear

[BJ64]

7 minutes ago, bytebear said:

But it's important to remember that LDS doctrine is contained only in canonized scripture. Everything else is speculation or elaboration.  And it's up to us, as individuals to receive a confirmation on every piece of truth revealed to us.  

I agree with this statement totally but I have to say that there are “doctrines” of the church which cannot be found in any canonized scripture yet they are still proclaimed to be true because some prophets or another said so on one or two occasions. 

[bytebear]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I agree with this statement totally but I have to say that there are “doctrines” of the church which cannot be found in any canonized scripture yet they are still proclaimed to be true because some prophets or another said so on one or two occasions. 

I absolutely disagree. There are many things prophets have said, that were believed to be absolute doctrine, that have now been revealed to be untrue. What we consider absolute doctrine today could be dismissed tomorrow as we follow our own Articles of Faith that says "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

[BJ64]

15 hours ago, bytebear said:

I absolutely disagree. There are many things prophets have said, that were believed to be absolute doctrine, that have now been revealed to be untrue. What we consider absolute doctrine today could be dismissed tomorrow as we follow our own Articles of Faith that says "We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God."

I’m not sure what you are disagreeing with. Do you disagree with something I said or something that I agreed with?

If you’re disagreeing that  all doctrine should be in the Scriptures here is the statement to ponder.

”How do we measure whether or not one’s teachings are true or false? If anyone teaches beyond what the scriptures teach, we may put it down as speculation except one man who has the right to bring forth any new doctrine—that is the one man who holds the keys—the prophet, seer, and revelator who presides in that high place. And no one else. If anyone presumes to bring forth what he claims to be new doctrine you may know that it is purely his own opinion and you label it as such regardless of his position in the Church. If it contradicts something that is in the scriptures, you may label it immediately that it is false. That is why we call the scriptures our four Standard Church Works. They are the standards by which we measure all doctrine and if anything is taught which is contrary to that which is in the scriptures, it is false. It is just that simple” (“Viewpoint of a Giant,” 6).

“All that we teach in this Church ought to be couched in the scriptures. It ought to be found in the scriptures. We ought to choose our texts from the scriptures. If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth” (“Using the Scriptures in Our Church Assignments,” Improvement Era, Jan. 1969, 13).

Following these guidelines it would be inappropriate for me to teach that masturbation is a sin because that cannot be found in the Scriptures.

[bytebear]

Really? 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

My point is that there are beliefs that were taught as doctrine in the past that are no longer considered true.
 

[BJ64]

12 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Really? 

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

My point is that there are beliefs that were taught as doctrine in the past that are no longer considered true.
 

Yes, but they weren’t necessarily in the scriptures. 

I tossed in the M comment as an example of something that has been taught which isn’t in the scriptures. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion on M. I’ll just say that M does not require lusting after a woman. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by BJ64

[bytebear]

I think those "doctrines" were well reasoned through the scriptures and considered Biblically sound.  And I am sure we have beliefs right now that we consider solid in their doctrine that will change as more light is given.

 

[Rob Osborn]

Truth is truth. Not every exact thing in scriptures can be validated as truth but it certainly can be validated as doctrine. There are errors in both scripture and doctrine. Truth however stands on its own and is always true and cannot be changed. 

[theplains]

On 8/14/2018 at 2:14 AM, Rob Osborn said:

Truth is truth. Not every exact thing in scriptures can be validated as truth but it certainly can be validated as doctrine. There are errors in both scripture and doctrine. Truth however stands on its own and is always true and cannot be changed. 

Do you believe Joseph Smith's teaching (and the church's continuance) that Heavenly Father was once a man who
became a God is the truth?

Jim

[BJ64]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Joseph Smith's teaching (and the church's continuance) that Heavenly Father was once a man who
became a God is the truth?

Jim

I know this question is not directed to me but I’ll answer it. I absolutely believe that our heavenly father was once a man like us. I also believe that we are the literal physical children of our heavenly parents. For this reason we have the capacity to become just like them.