Is the Catholic concept of Purgatory more accurate than heaven vs hell?

[DennisTate]

For the record...... Dennis Tate is my real name and I do live in Nova Scotia, Canada.  

After teaching English in Quito, Ecuador for over a year I returned home to Canada

determined to become more socially and politically active........ seeing real poverty with our

own eyes will often have that effect on those of us who spend a significant amount of time in

a nation where a large segment of the population is illiterate and poor.  

My dad, Robert S. Tate passed on January 1, 1990 and the fact that I was studying near death

experience accounts at that time I went into a pretty serious philosophical and theological crisis.  

I have began this same discussion on at least one other forum and I will copy and paste

this same discussion exactly as I posted it over there:

 

I have been asking myself this question since 1990 when I began to study near death experience accounts?

Twenty eight years later after studying hundreds of NDE's I think that yes... the Roman Catholic idea of Purgatory is closer to the full truth than the Protestant heaven vs hell teachings. I believe that the key to understanding this is to realize that time is an invention...... that was created by the most off the scale intellect in the universe / Multiverse... and time... was invented to assist human and angelic souls to progress from point A to point B spiritually, mentally, emotionally and yes... even in the types of bodies that we are given.

Quote

R.F: "A churchmate of mine had a dream and she said my dad (who passed away this april 19) visited her. She asked my dad, "Why are you still alive, you are already dead". Then my dad said, " My soul is still in purgatory so I cannot go up, I will be staying for 8 months"... My concern is, is it a real visitation or is it just an ordinary dream? I do not believe in purgatory (it is not in our church' doctrine as we believe only heaven and hell) but how come my "DAD" told her that he is in a purgatory? Any thoughts please?" (R.F.)

 

I replied:
Purgatory is just a word...... it is subject to definition....... it may have been the closest word that your dad could think of even after several months of being in a higher dimension of space - time. For example.... the word translated "forever" in the Bible in English..... comes from a Hebrew word that actually means....."until the end of conditions last."

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05d

Quote

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

this place is truly hell. Their obsessive thoughts and emotions extended beyond the physical realm and into the spiritual realm where they cannot be satisfied. Yet there was nothing preventing any of the poor spirits in these realms from leaving. There was no condemnation coming from Jesus either - only compassion for these miserable spirits. Ritchie realizes Jesus hadn't abandoned any of them here. Instead they fled from the light to escape from having the darkness of their heart from being revealed.

George Ritchie's Temple of Wisdom and Heavenly City Experience: They then travel to a completely different realm where some kind of enormous university is located. Spirits dressed as monks busily and happily engaged in some form of artistic behavior or research. An enormous library exists here where all the important books of the universe are assembled. Ritchie asks Jesus if this is heaven. These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either.

Please notice this last sentence:
"These are the spirits of people who grew beyond selfish desires while on Earth; but, like the spirits in hell, these spirits cannot see Jesus either." (Dr. George Ritchie)....
if these spirits cannot see Jesus.....
are they in the Christian heaven????

[DennisTate]

I personally am so impressed with the Latter Day Saints teaching of Baptism for the Dead........

that although I cannot yet make the statement that I know that you are correct.......

I can certainly say that I hope that you are correct...... and the hope given for the unsaved dead

that this doctrine can give us is so great........ that I may well be baptized as an L.D. S. just because of this doctrine.......

even if my being baptized as an L.D. S. creates a certain amount of turmoil.  

While I am in that process I would sure appreciate it if somebody in the Latter Day Saints would get baptized on behalf of my dad, 

Robert S. Tate. (My two Aunt's who moved to California created something of a kerfuffle over the spelling of our last name so dad's name

when you find it may be spelled Tait, rather than Tate, but he was using Tate at the time that I began to write my name).

 

[Sunday21]

@DennisTate Hi Dennis! I confess that I don’t know what purgatory is! There is an lds temple in Dartmouth. Although nonrecommend holders cannot enter, many people find inspiration by being on the grounds. 44 Cumberland Dr, Dartmouth, NS B2W 6M1, Canada

[anatess2]

Purgatory - being the staging ground before salvation where those penitent plea with Christ for salvation and saints help and pray for those in purgatory to be saved - is closer to the LDS teaching of the Plan of Salvation than the Protestant teaching of heaven and hell simply because of the fact that heaven and hell is taught as a final destination.

In LDS teaching, the similar teaching of heaven and hell is spirit paradise and spirit prison.  These are estates that are part of the progression and is not the final salvific destination.  Therefore, spirits who die go to either spirit paradise (heaven) or spirit prison (hell) and continue to learn about Christ and accept his saving grace (heaven and hell being like purgatory where it is not the final destination).  Spirits in paradise have accepted Christ and has overcome their mortal challenges in such a way that they have freed themselves from unGodly Will - this is similar to the Catholic saints.  Spirits in prison still haven't accepted Christ or have not overcome their sinful nature so they continue to learn and grow and repent until such time that they qualify for paradise - this is similar to Catholic Purgatory. 

Baptism for the dead - a temple ordinance - is an act of love for those who are in prison by those who are in their mortal probation as baptism is an ordinance performed on mortal bodies.  Those in prison may accept the baptism done by their proxies as a covenant they make with Christ to accept his atoning grace.  Also, those in spirit paradise continue their work as teachers and ministers to those in prison to help them free themselves from bondage (similar to Catholic saints aiding spirits bound in purgatory - so it is like in Catholic tradition where mortal people pray and plea to the saints to aid them and intercede on behalf of their dead loved ones in purgatory).

This is the important teaching absent in either Catholic or Protestant teaching:  After the completion of Christ's work of atonement, spirits in paradise/prison go through the final judgment of Christ where we are sifted to the final estate within the Plan of Salvation - outer darkness or any of the degrees of glory where Christ reigns.  Those who pass through the waters of baptism and make the covenant (including those baptized by proxy) will be in glory, the lowest degree being degrees of magnitude more glorious than earthly paradise and the highest degree of which is being in the constant companion of the Father.  Those who reject the covenant with Christ will be in outer darkness - a spiritual death that is a complete and eternal separation from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

So, in a way, the Catholic teaching is somewhat closer but still very far.  And that is because of the missing teaching on temple ordinances.  This exact same missing teaching is what causes Catholics and Protestants to argue endlessly over works vs. grace.

Edited July 26, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

4 hours ago, DennisTate said:

While I am in that process I would sure appreciate it if somebody in the Latter Day Saints would get baptized on behalf of my dad, 

Robert S. Tate. (My two Aunt's who moved to California created something of a kerfuffle over the spelling of our last name so dad's name

when you find it may be spelled Tait, rather than Tate, but he was using Tate at the time that I began to write my name).

 

We would love to do the work for you.  I suggest you create a record of your dad in familysearch.org.  It's a free website that the LDS Church provides for everybody regardless of faith.  The Church also provides this website to members of the Church to organize their information to help them prepare for temple ordinances.  So, it would be easy to just hand over your dad's info by entering all of it on familysearch.org then authorizing a member of the church to pull the info for temple ordinances.

BUT... I strongly suggest you hold off on it.  Baptism for our dead loved ones is a very very special moment.  If there's any possibility - even just a small teeny-beety possibility - that you will accept the teachings of the Church and be baptized yourself, it would be one of the most special moments of your life to be able to go through the baptism again on behalf of your father.  We would not want to rob you of that moment.

Right at this moment, my 14-year-old son is at the Nauvoo temple waiting to be baptized on behalf of his great-great-grandfather who was born in 1880.  He is in a very  special spiritual moment and we spent most of yesterday talking about his great-great-grandfather.  I spent the last 3+ months in the Philippines digging up all the information surrounding my great-grandfather, asking all my elderly relatives for stories about him - the oldest of whom is around 90 years old who is my great-grandfather's daughter-in-law.  It was an awesome experience for me just getting to know my great-grandpa.  It was a special moment passing all those stories to my son, and it was a special moment for my son to go to the temple on his behalf.

Edited July 26, 2018 by anatess2

[Jane_Doe]

Well @anatess2 hit the ball out of the park.  No way I can add anything to those 10-star posts except "Amen". 

[Vort]

Purgatory as a Catholic doctrine seems to have really taken root in the high Middle Ages, very possibly entrenched in the European mind by Dante's classic Divine Comedy trilogy of Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise.

The idea of purgation is that of the continuation of the soul and its progress after death. Purification of some sort needs to happen, either from sin or from the filth of mortality. This is an ancient idea, had by many peoples and cultures through the millennia. I believe it is a remnant idea surviving among various groups of an early established truth.

Today, the best, fullest explanation of that truth about "purgatory" is found in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those doctrines teach us that we are eternal beings currently undergoing a mortal probation, and that that probation continues after our mortal death. We continue to be the people we were in mortality, and insofar as we have preserved our ability to exercise agency, can still choose and grow.

So yes, the Catholic idea of purgatory is more accurate than the binary idea of our eternal abode immediately after death being either heaven or hell for all eternity. But it's still an inaccurate doctrine, similar to saying that the idea of the sun being fixed in the crystalline heavens and rotating around the earth is more accurate than the belief that Apollo drives the sun chariot across the sky every day.

[anatess2]

39 minutes ago, Vort said:

Purgatory as a Catholic doctrine seems to have really taken root in the high Middle Ages, very possibly entrenched in the European mind by Dante's classic Divine Comedy trilogy of Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise.

That may be where it became "pop culture".  Catholics have always held this belief though whereas Protestants dropped the teaching as the scriptural basis for it is in the deuterocanons which the Protestants excluded from biblical scripture.

[lostinwater]

@DennisTate

Thank-you for this thread.

If you haven't read CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" already, i'd highly recommend it.  i've been reading near death experiences also (though not nearly so long as you), and i think it's a really unique insight that has a lot of wisdom.

Amy Call's Near Death Experience really touched me also.  You can find it on Youtube, if you have any interest.

As you, i find it rather confusing that so many good people can report so many different things.  In the end, i think i've come to the conclusion that there is quite a bit of variety in the afterlife.  And also that i think that God and Jesus give people the things/experiences they most need (some pleasant, some not so much), choosing from those that the person will accept - while continuing to work with each of us.  

And i am not active in the Mormon church - so please know that my statements reflect that.  

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 8:33 AM, Sunday21 said:

@DennisTate Hi Dennis! I confess that I don’t know what purgatory is! There is an lds temple in Dartmouth. Although nonrecommend holders cannot enter, many people find inspiration by being on the grounds. 44 Cumberland Dr, Dartmouth, NS B2W 6M1, Canada

Thank you for that information.... the next time that I am at the L.D.S. church in New Glasgow, N. S. I will ask about that.......

because I have a few things in mind that are so serious that I would like to  put them in front of long time Latter Day Saints who could answer

some quite troubling questions.  

My all time record for being ex-communicated from churches is two..... in not much more than one month back in 1991.....

so if it is likely that I am going to be disfellowshipped due to all the writing that I do..... then I would prefer to 

simply remain a non- L.D.S. who attends an L.D.S. church on Sundays when I don't have to take my wife and daughter to their 

Pentecostal church.  

(For the record the two churches were The Worldwide Church of God and one of its offshoots, The Philadelphia Church of God.

I actually suggested to Halifax, N. S., Pastor G... M.... that he should probably disfellowship me......

because now that I had read a number of near death experience accounts I could no longer go along with the rather dogmatic Soul Sleep doctrine that the church had).

Edited July 30, 2018 by DennisTate
correction... temple... to church....

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:25 AM, anatess2 said:

Purgatory - being the staging ground before salvation where those penitent plea with Christ for salvation and saints help and pray for those in purgatory to be saved - is closer to the LDS teaching of the Plan of Salvation than the Protestant teaching of heaven and hell simply because of the fact that heaven and hell is taught as a final destination.

In LDS teaching, the similar teaching of heaven and hell is spirit paradise and spirit prison.  These are estates that are part of the progression and is not the final salvific destination.  Therefore, spirits who die go to either spirit paradise (heaven) or spirit prison (hell) and continue to learn about Christ and accept his saving grace (heaven and hell being like purgatory where it is not the final destination).  Spirits in paradise have accepted Christ and has overcome their mortal challenges in such a way that they have freed themselves from unGodly Will - this is similar to the Catholic saints.  Spirits in prison still haven't accepted Christ or have not overcome their sinful nature so they continue to learn and grow and repent until such time that they qualify for paradise - this is similar to Catholic Purgatory. 

Baptism for the dead - a temple ordinance - is an act of love for those who are in prison by those who are in their mortal probation as baptism is an ordinance performed on mortal bodies.  Those in prison may accept the baptism done by their proxies as a covenant they make with Christ to accept his atoning grace.  Also, those in spirit paradise continue their work as teachers and ministers to those in prison to help them free themselves from bondage (similar to Catholic saints aiding spirits bound in purgatory - so it is like in Catholic tradition where mortal people pray and plea to the saints to aid them and intercede on behalf of their dead loved ones in purgatory).

This is the important teaching absent in either Catholic or Protestant teaching:  After the completion of Christ's work of atonement, spirits in paradise/prison go through the final judgment of Christ where we are sifted to the final estate within the Plan of Salvation - outer darkness or any of the degrees of glory where Christ reigns.  Those who pass through the waters of baptism and make the covenant (including those baptized by proxy) will be in glory, the lowest degree being degrees of magnitude more glorious than earthly paradise and the highest degree of which is being in the constant companion of the Father.  Those who reject the covenant with Christ will be in outer darkness - a spiritual death that is a complete and eternal separation from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

So, in a way, the Catholic teaching is somewhat closer but still very far.  And that is because of the missing teaching on temple ordinances.  This exact same missing teaching is what causes Catholics and Protestants to argue endlessly over works vs. grace.

Truly helpful information Anatess2...... 

It is so wonderful to find out that there is at least one Christian church that enthusiastically accepts near death experience 

accounts.  

There is a verse in the Catholic Bible that indicates that the presence of a Life Review.... in an NDE accounts.....

indicates that that particular testimony is probably more than merely an out of the body experience..... that perhaps

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus experienced after long term fasting......... and during what sounds like an Out of Body Experience in Matthew chapter 4....

Messiah Yeshua actually meets Satan.

 

[6] "For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls." (Baruch 6:6)

Former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. reports having had an extensive Life Review with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.....

in my opinion....  his boom My Descent Into Death..... is one of the best books to begin to research NDE's with. 

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a03

Quote

3. The Life Review of Howard Storm

Next, they wanted to talk about my life. To my surprise my life played out before me, maybe six or eight feet in front of me, from beginning to end.   The life review was very much in their control, and they showed me my life, but not from my point of view. I saw me in my life and this whole thing was a lesson, even though I didn't know it at the time. They were trying to teach me something, but I didn't know it was a teaching experience, because I didn't know that I would be coming back. We just watched my life from beginning to the end. Some things they slowed down on, and zoomed in on and other things they went right through.   My life was shown in a way that I had never thought of before. All of the things that I had worked to achieve, the recognition that I had worked for, in elementary school, in high school, in college, and in my career, they meant nothing in this setting.   I could feel their feelings of sorrow and suffering, or joy, as my life's review unfolded. They didn't say that something was bad or good, but I could feel it. And I could sense all those things they were indifferent to. They didn't, for example, look down on my high school shot-put record. They just didn't feel anything towards it, nor towards other things which I had taken so much pride in.

 

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:47 AM, anatess2 said:

We would love to do the work for you.  I suggest you create a record of your dad in familysearch.org.  It's a free website that the LDS Church provides for everybody regardless of faith.  The Church also provides this website to members of the Church to organize their information to help them prepare for temple ordinances.  So, it would be easy to just hand over your dad's info by entering all of it on familysearch.org then authorizing a member of the church to pull the info for temple ordinances.

BUT... I strongly suggest you hold off on it.  Baptism for our dead loved ones is a very very special moment.  If there's any possibility - even just a small teeny-beety possibility - that you will accept the teachings of the Church and be baptized yourself, it would be one of the most special moments of your life to be able to go through the baptism again on behalf of your father.  We would not want to rob you of that moment.

Right at this moment, my 14-year-old son is at the Nauvoo temple waiting to be baptized on behalf of his great-great-grandfather who was born in 1880.  He is in a very  special spiritual moment and we spent most of yesterday talking about his great-great-grandfather.  I spent the last 3+ months in the Philippines digging up all the information surrounding my great-grandfather, asking all my elderly relatives for stories about him - the oldest of whom is around 90 years old who is my great-grandfather's daughter-in-law.  It was an awesome experience for me just getting to know my great-grandpa.  It was a special moment passing all those stories to my son, and it was a special moment for my son to go to the temple on his behalf.

Well said......... there is definitely a possibility that I will be baptized as an L.D.S. but.........

as a non-member I may be able to assist you to get into places where you might not so easily be able to go......

so there are advantages in my becoming a full fledged Prostylite to Judaism first....... (if possible though Rabbi Alon Anava)....

assist the L.D. S. church to begin a more effective outreach to the nation of Israel and to the Jewish people over the long term ...... in a manner

that is win - win - win - win - win

vs win - lose.........

I like the idea of a Latter Day Saint being baptized for my dad on my behalf......

because his spending even one more day than necessary in a lower dimension of space - time / level in the afterlife.......

is not something that I want to see happen.  

 

Here is the first e-mail that I ever sent off to Orthodox Jewish Sanhedrin Rabbi Mr. Yeshayahu Julius Hollander.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/tate4centralnova/my-correspondence-with-rabbi-t383.html#.VsDYdsf8iOw

 

Rabbi ........, linking Jerusalem Third Temple with Grand Unified Theory of Modern World Problems.Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:00 PM

Quote

Shalom Rabbi .........: 
 

I've been participating on The Sanhedrin message board and I was urged to contact you

directly.  So far as I know I am probably the first minor Canadian politician who has

advocated that my nation assist The Temple Mount Faithful Community, People For A

Bill to Build The Bet HaMikdash and The Sanhedriin in your efforts to control the

Temple Mount and rebuild your Jerusalem Third Temple.

 

It is my firm belief that semi-reality and reality film series could play an important role 

in working out the fulfillment of every word spoken in the law and in the prophets.  My 

dad, Robert Stewart Tate, passed away on January 1, 1990.  His death came at the 

same time that I was being confronted with the implications of the near death 

experience accounts. I went through a theological crisis that I believe has relevance for

your SanHedrin.

 

"but the goat on which the lot fell for Aza'zel shall be presented alive before the LORD

to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness

to Aza'zel." (Leviticus 16:10)

 

I had no problem with the positive near death experiences but those negative ones

put me into a philosophical crisis unlike I had ever experienced before.  I saw this 

verse in Leviticus as a possible loophole and I asked that the guilt of Azazel would

be put on my head.  I prayed and asked The G-d of Abraham if he had any use for

a volunteer "goat for Azazel?"  If so, then I wanted to submit my application for the

job.

 

Several unusual things did occur since that time that I feel indicates that my offer

may well have been accepted.  I would like to elaborate further on how I feel

a volunteer goat for Azazel could perhaps be of use in the working out of latter

day events in such a way that the death toll is kept to an absolute minimum.

 

Although I am not certain exactly what a volunteer goat for Azazel should do I

have seen a videotape in my head of myself signing currency units while my hand

is bleeding.  The blood that drips onto a particular part of those currency units,

along with many examples of my signature serves to authenticate the 

validity of these specific currency units for a future in which they could turn

out to be quite useful.  I hereby offer to The Sanhedrin 22 billion Dennis Tate

shekels or dollars, similar to CalgaryDollars.ca or the Ithaca Hour.  

 

Bill and Melinda Gates are planning on spending 24 billion US dollars in an effort

to make this world a better place.  I wish to compete with them.  This 22 billion

in a sense can be used as props in many reality films that tend to promote

peace in the Middle East and the reestablishment of the law of Moshe even in

foreign lands.

 

It is my belief that the films that you are guided to produce and direct will greatly

increase in value over the coming decades and centuries.

 

Shalom and greetings from Nova Scotia.

 

Dennis Tate 

 

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:11 PM, Jane_Doe said:

Well @anatess2 hit the ball out of the park.  No way I can add anything to those 10-star posts except "Amen". 

I so thank you for reaching out all over the internet.  I am impressed that you even post to ChristianForums .com where you and other Latter Day Saints are not treated very well at all.  The reaction over on this secular political discussion forum with a Religion and Philosophy sub- forum...... is certainly much more positive and welcoming:

 

Latter Day Saints, The Mormons, my analysis so far!

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 12:29 PM, Vort said:

Purgatory as a Catholic doctrine seems to have really taken root in the high Middle Ages, very possibly entrenched in the European mind by Dante's classic Divine Comedy trilogy of Hell, Purgatory, and Paradise.

The idea of purgation is that of the continuation of the soul and its progress after death. Purification of some sort needs to happen, either from sin or from the filth of mortality. This is an ancient idea, had by many peoples and cultures through the millennia. I believe it is a remnant idea surviving among various groups of an early established truth.

Today, the best, fullest explanation of that truth about "purgatory" is found in the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Those doctrines teach us that we are eternal beings currently undergoing a mortal probation, and that that probation continues after our mortal death. We continue to be the people we were in mortality, and insofar as we have preserved our ability to exercise agency, can still choose and grow.

So yes, the Catholic idea of purgatory is more accurate than the binary idea of our eternal abode immediately after death being either heaven or hell for all eternity. But it's still an inaccurate doctrine, similar to saying that the idea of the sun being fixed in the crystalline heavens and rotating around the earth is more accurate than the belief that Apollo drives the sun chariot across the sky every day.

I do believe that Jewish ideas on the afterlife had some effect on the development of the Catholic idea of Purgatory.  

 

Is there any sort of Purgatory or Satan in Jewish teachings?

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 4:35 PM, lostinwater said:

@DennisTate

Thank-you for this thread.

If you haven't read CS Lewis' "The Great Divorce" already, i'd highly recommend it.  i've been reading near death experiences also (though not nearly so long as you), and i think it's a really unique insight that has a lot of wisdom.

Amy Call's Near Death Experience really touched me also.  You can find it on Youtube, if you have any interest.

As you, i find it rather confusing that so many good people can report so many different things.  In the end, i think i've come to the conclusion that there is quite a bit of variety in the afterlife.  And also that i think that God and Jesus give people the things/experiences they most need (some pleasant, some not so much), choosing from those that the person will accept - while continuing to work with each of us.  

And i am not active in the Mormon church - so please know that my statements reflect that.  

Well said....... "there is quite a bit of variety in the afterlife".......... !

I think that that is absolutely correct!

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has the authority and the power to take an Atheist like Howard Storm Ph. D.........

take him through a review of his life... .and then resurrect him to give a powerful message to the whole world......

that may correspond amazingly well with the message that Lazarus was giving that caused some people to want to kill Lazarus.........

due to the convicting power of his message.  

 

Edited July 28, 2018 by DennisTate
spelling error

[Sunday21]

@DennisTateDan Peterson is an lds scholar who teaches lds religion iin YouTube broadcasts and collects near death experiences http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2018/07/the-near-death-experience-tunnel-c.html

[Sunday21]

http://www.ldsliving.com/Brigham-Young-s-Near-Death-Experience-and-What-It-Taught-Him-About-the-Spirit-World/s/81924

Lds prophets and near death experiences 

@DennisTate

[MaryJehanne]

On 7/26/2018 at 10:25 AM, anatess2 said:

Purgatory - being the staging ground before salvation where those penitent plea with Christ for salvation and saints help and pray for those in purgatory to be saved - is closer to the LDS teaching of the Plan of Salvation than the Protestant teaching of heaven and hell simply because of the fact that heaven and hell is taught as a final destination.

In LDS teaching, the similar teaching of heaven and hell is spirit paradise and spirit prison.  These are estates that are part of the progression and is not the final salvific destination.  Therefore, spirits who die go to either spirit paradise (heaven) or spirit prison (hell) and continue to learn about Christ and accept his saving grace (heaven and hell being like purgatory where it is not the final destination).  Spirits in paradise have accepted Christ and has overcome their mortal challenges in such a way that they have freed themselves from unGodly Will - this is similar to the Catholic saints.  Spirits in prison still haven't accepted Christ or have not overcome their sinful nature so they continue to learn and grow and repent until such time that they qualify for paradise - this is similar to Catholic Purgatory. 

Baptism for the dead - a temple ordinance - is an act of love for those who are in prison by those who are in their mortal probation as baptism is an ordinance performed on mortal bodies.  Those in prison may accept the baptism done by their proxies as a covenant they make with Christ to accept his atoning grace.  Also, those in spirit paradise continue their work as teachers and ministers to those in prison to help them free themselves from bondage (similar to Catholic saints aiding spirits bound in purgatory - so it is like in Catholic tradition where mortal people pray and plea to the saints to aid them and intercede on behalf of their dead loved ones in purgatory).

This is the important teaching absent in either Catholic or Protestant teaching:  After the completion of Christ's work of atonement, spirits in paradise/prison go through the final judgment of Christ where we are sifted to the final estate within the Plan of Salvation - outer darkness or any of the degrees of glory where Christ reigns.  Those who pass through the waters of baptism and make the covenant (including those baptized by proxy) will be in glory, the lowest degree being degrees of magnitude more glorious than earthly paradise and the highest degree of which is being in the constant companion of the Father.  Those who reject the covenant with Christ will be in outer darkness - a spiritual death that is a complete and eternal separation from the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

So, in a way, the Catholic teaching is somewhat closer but still very far.  And that is because of the missing teaching on temple ordinances.  This exact same missing teaching is what causes Catholics and Protestants to argue endlessly over works vs. grace.

Hi! I haven’t read through most of the replies to this thread yet, so I’m sorry if someone’s already addressed this!

Thank you for adding this, Anatess! Although Purgatory isn’t quite that... there’s no pleaing for salvation, since everyone in purgatory is already saved! Prayers can lessen the duration of purgatory, but regardless, time in Purgatory will end and the person will go to Heaven. To quote something I wrote for someone else: 

We do hold that Purgatory is an objective truth, so that teaching will never change (The idea of a place called Limbo, different from Purgatory, was a theory that was proposed in the past, but it was never official teaching and has been decreasing in perceived validity).

There are, however, only two ultimate destinations for a soul: Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is an intermediary to Heaven, so if a soul is in Purgatory, her ultimate destination is Heaven. Purgatory is the place where souls go who have died in a state of grace (which basically equates to not being in unrepentant mortal sin), but are not yet completely pure. Purgatory is a path for those souls to become pure, so they can enter the kingdom of God in "wedding garments" like Christ's parable mentioned (Matthew 22:11-14).

From Catholic.com:

 The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). 

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

_________

I see you explained the LDS viewpoint, but I’m not really sure about what’s lacking in the Catholic and Protestant theologies! It seems that we, looking at it from what you’ve written, skip a step, going to that ultimate destination you mention, without a lesser heaven and hell in between. 

In Catholicism, the joy of heaven is more of a state of being, of being in perfect Union with God. For Catholics and Protestants, there is a step after being in heaven as spirits separate from our bodies, when a new, perfect earth is created and we are united with bodies once again.

 

God bless! 

[DennisTate]

On 7/28/2018 at 9:16 PM, Sunday21 said:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Brigham-Young-s-Near-Death-Experience-and-What-It-Taught-Him-About-the-Spirit-World/s/81924

Lds prophets and near death experiences 

@DennisTate

I so thank you for these fascinating links........

Here is another one that I found once I read the link above:

http://www.ldsliving.com/Life-After-Death-6-Insights-into-the-Spirit-World/s/77329

Life After Death: 6 Insights into the Spirit World

 

In my opinion.........

IF..... the being of light of NDE fame who reviews lives with Christians who have a brush with death is none other than Messiah Yeshua - Jesus......

keeping several of his promises to his followers......

THEN..... Latter Day Saints and Roman Catholics have  a head start in coming to understand certain 

rather big questions that may well be facing Christians at this time.

 

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 16:25

These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

Edited July 30, 2018 by DennisTate
speling

[DennisTate]

Here is one of my writings explaining how huge this question really could turn out to be!

 

The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.

1Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

I began to study these experiences a great deal back in 1990. They immediately made me realize that the "soul sleep" doctrine that I had been taught was almost certainly in error. I got kicked out of two churches due to disagreements mainly over that doctrine. But as a Christian there was no way that I could deny the possibility of people having an "out of the body experience!"

2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

But I know that many Christians struggle with these accounts..... partly because they are offended that people are shown going to heaven who have not "accepted Yeshua - Jesus" in quite the same manner that they did?!?!

Howard Storm:

Quote

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
... 
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

Here is the verse that causes many Christians to reject NDE accounts as a deception from the dark side of the force.

Acts 4:12

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

[DennisTate]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:47 AM, anatess2 said:

We would love to do the work for you.  I suggest you create a record of your dad in familysearch.org.  It's a free website that the LDS Church provides for everybody regardless of faith.  The Church also provides this website to members of the Church to organize their information to help them prepare for temple ordinances.  So, it would be easy to just hand over your dad's info by entering all of it on familysearch.org then authorizing a member of the church to pull the info for temple ordinances.

BUT... I strongly suggest you hold off on it.  Baptism for our dead loved ones is a very very special moment.  If there's any possibility - even just a small teeny-beety possibility - that you will accept the teachings of the Church and be baptized yourself, it would be one of the most special moments of your life to be able to go through the baptism again on behalf of your father.  We would not want to rob you of that moment.

Right at this moment, my 14-year-old son is at the Nauvoo temple waiting to be baptized on behalf of his great-great-grandfather who was born in 1880.  He is in a very  special spiritual moment and we spent most of yesterday talking about his great-great-grandfather.  I spent the last 3+ months in the Philippines digging up all the information surrounding my great-grandfather, asking all my elderly relatives for stories about him - the oldest of whom is around 90 years old who is my great-grandfather's daughter-in-law.  It was an awesome experience for me just getting to know my great-grandpa.  It was a special moment passing all those stories to my son, and it was a special moment for my son to go to the temple on his behalf.

I was given the link to one of the webpages where I could update my parents and grandparents info......

I am truly impressed with the website:

https://www.familysearch.org/

[DennisTate]

I absolutely do agree with this statement that the spirits that are in paradise.......

can teach the spirits that are in prison!

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

 

 

Quote

 

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them. The spirits in paradise can teach the spirits in prison (see D&C 138).

 

 

 

[DennisTate]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:51 AM, MaryJehanne said:

Hi! I haven’t read through most of the replies to this thread yet, so I’m sorry if someone’s already addressed this!

Thank you for adding this, Anatess! Although Purgatory isn’t quite that... there’s no pleaing for salvation, since everyone in purgatory is already saved! Prayers can lessen the duration of purgatory, but regardless, time in Purgatory will end and the person will go to Heaven. To quote something I wrote for someone else: 

We do hold that Purgatory is an objective truth, so that teaching will never change (The idea of a place called Limbo, different from Purgatory, was a theory that was proposed in the past, but it was never official teaching and has been decreasing in perceived validity).

There are, however, only two ultimate destinations for a soul: Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is an intermediary to Heaven, so if a soul is in Purgatory, her ultimate destination is Heaven. Purgatory is the place where souls go who have died in a state of grace (which basically equates to not being in unrepentant mortal sin), but are not yet completely pure. Purgatory is a path for those souls to become pure, so they can enter the kingdom of God in "wedding garments" like Christ's parable mentioned (Matthew 22:11-14).

From Catholic.com:

 The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). 

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

_________

I see you explained the LDS viewpoint, but I’m not really sure about what’s lacking in the Catholic and Protestant theologies! It seems that we, looking at it from what you’ve written, skip a step, going to that ultimate destination you mention, without a lesser heaven and hell in between. 

In Catholicism, the joy of heaven is more of a state of being, of being in perfect Union with God. For Catholics and Protestants, there is a step after being in heaven as spirits separate from our bodies, when a new, perfect earth is created and we are united with bodies once again.

 

God bless! 

Very, very, very interesting indeed........

I think that it is an especially powerful point that the souls in Purgatory are indeed already Saved........

in a sense Purgatory could then perhaps correspond with the "Outer Darkness of Heaven" as a brilliant Christian visionary

recently wrote about?????  

 

 

[anatess2]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:51 AM, MaryJehanne said:

Hi! I haven’t read through most of the replies to this thread yet, so I’m sorry if someone’s already addressed this!

Thank you for adding this, Anatess! Although Purgatory isn’t quite that... there’s no pleaing for salvation, since everyone in purgatory is already saved! Prayers can lessen the duration of purgatory, but regardless, time in Purgatory will end and the person will go to Heaven. To quote something I wrote for someone else: 

We do hold that Purgatory is an objective truth, so that teaching will never change (The idea of a place called Limbo, different from Purgatory, was a theory that was proposed in the past, but it was never official teaching and has been decreasing in perceived validity).

There are, however, only two ultimate destinations for a soul: Heaven or Hell. Purgatory is an intermediary to Heaven, so if a soul is in Purgatory, her ultimate destination is Heaven. Purgatory is the place where souls go who have died in a state of grace (which basically equates to not being in unrepentant mortal sin), but are not yet completely pure. Purgatory is a path for those souls to become pure, so they can enter the kingdom of God in "wedding garments" like Christ's parable mentioned (Matthew 22:11-14).

From Catholic.com:

 The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). 

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

_________

I see you explained the LDS viewpoint, but I’m not really sure about what’s lacking in the Catholic and Protestant theologies! It seems that we, looking at it from what you’ve written, skip a step, going to that ultimate destination you mention, without a lesser heaven and hell in between. 

In Catholicism, the joy of heaven is more of a state of being, of being in perfect Union with God. For Catholics and Protestants, there is a step after being in heaven as spirits separate from our bodies, when a new, perfect earth is created and we are united with bodies once again.

 

God bless! 

@pam, here's one of those things.  I wrote I long-winded response to this.  I clicked Submit, and you know how when there's heavy network traffic, it takes a while for mormonhub to actually get the thing to post... and if you click submit reply again thinking you might not have clicked it properly the first time, you end up with a double post?  Anyway, so I click Submit on this, it takes a while to post, so I go do something else, I go back and it never got posted.

The other one that I tagged you on, I clicked Submit Reply, it spins a while so I go to the thread on another browser tab and start replying to another post on that thread... the spinning post eventually showed up but all it posted was that thing I tagged you on... the long-winded texts were gone.

 

Anyway,  @MaryJehanne, I didn't want you to think I ignored your post.  I replied to it and didn't go back to check if my reply got posted.  Unfortunately, it disappeared into the ether... and I only found out now.

Edited August 6, 2018 by anatess2

[MaryJehanne]

On 8/6/2018 at 12:08 PM, anatess2 said:

@pam, here's one of those things.  I wrote I long-winded response to this.  I clicked Submit, and you know how when there's heavy network traffic, it takes a while for mormonhub to actually get the thing to post... and if you click submit reply again thinking you might not have clicked it properly the first time, you end up with a double post?  Anyway, so I click Submit on this, it takes a while to post, so I go do something else, I go back and it never got posted.

The other one that I tagged you on, I clicked Submit Reply, it spins a while so I go to the thread on another browser tab and start replying to another post on that thread... the spinning post eventually showed up but all it posted was that thing I tagged you on... the long-winded texts were gone.

 

Anyway,  @MaryJehanne, I didn't want you to think I ignored your post.  I replied to it and didn't go back to check if my reply got posted.  Unfortunately, it disappeared into the ether... and I only found out now.

Thank you for letting me know! That’s completely all right.