"Nothing has been revealed concerning evolution." Balderdash


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1 hour ago, MarginOfError said:

Point of order, the study only makes the claim that all animal life known today appeared between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago. It says nothing about previous species of animal, nor of bacteria or plant life.

This is a very new study (May 2018) that has yet to be validated using a methodology that is less than a decade old. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is a bit early to conclude either way.

Your post caused me to go back and read several articles on this study and it’s understandable how one would misunderstand. A quote from one of the articles:

“In a massive genetic study, senior research associate at the Program for the Human Environment at Rockefeller University Mark Stoeckle and University of Basel geneticist David Thaler discovered that virtually 90 percent of all animals on Earth appeared at right around the same time.” (Schwartz Report)

I appreciate the clarification. Nevertheless, the “massive” study is repeatedly described as being a major game changer that dramatically upsets the previous understanding of how evolution on our planet is said is to have occurred. For this reason, Thaler himself resisted what the evidence was telling until it was too compelling to deny.

Because of the following famous quote from the Doctrine and Covenants, I personally believe the sscientists are never going to arrive at an accurate and complete understanding  of how life on earth began and how all present lifeforms came to be until the millennium.

32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—

33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—

34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven. (D&C 101)

Although I don’t pretend to know what the Lord’s answers are going to be, I do believe when the full story is finally revealed many of today’s great scientists are going to sit in shocked silence and awe as the true account of creation is told as they come to fully realize how little they actually knew.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Godless said:

What he described is controlled micro-evolution. Same concept, but manipulated by man for our benefit, not the benefit of the evolved species. It happens in the natural world as well. Virtually all theists accept microevolution as a reality, but somehow can't grasp how that same process, uninhibited by man and left to play out over thousands/millions of years, can result in entirely new species.

I have no problem grasping the concept of evolution.  That doesn't make genetic manipulation evolution.  One is a natural reaction to an environment that takes countless generations to occur, the other is man-made.

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13 hours ago, Godless said:

Virtually all theists accept microevolution as a reality, but somehow can't grasp how that same process, uninhibited by man and left to play out over thousands/millions of years, can result in entirely new species.

Here are some thoughts on why this occurs (Andenex speaking generally for himself and others (the other part could be wrong)):

1) The majority individuals who promote macro-evolution do so while proudly denying their reliance on faith. Macro-evolution requires evidence, solid evidence that is common not theoretical. Macro-evolution has never been observed, and I have never read any article that provides any ability to test such (that I accept as a worth while finding). It is all based upon theories that requires a person to accept without evidence these things happened, because a bunch of scientist say so in their published journals (who are often biased toward their findings).

2) I can see micro-evolution occur within different species of the world. The natural breeding between the Cutthroat trout and Rainbow trout in reservoirs is an example of micro-evolution. And as always the micro-evolution creates a natural hybrid that can be witnessed, tested, and observed. It is common.  The species also remains of its kind. This is why theists accept micro-evolution because it can be witnessed and observed.

3) For some theists, organic evolution hits the creation story a little to close. So they will deny this, as for some, this directly affects what they have always believed and must believe to remain theist.

So, not grasping how this could happen, really isn't the issue. I can grasp why people say such -- I don't accept it for given reasons #1 and #2.

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Here, let's set EVERYONE'S hair on fire, shall we...
HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST CREATED EVOLUTION!
There, debate resolved.

 

I'd like to thank you for reading my - and MINE alone - opinion. Should you be interested in more of my opinions, please feel free to contact me.

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51 minutes ago, skater974 said:

HEAVENLY FATHER AND HIS SON JESUS CHRIST CREATED EVOLUTION!

Why would that set people's hair on fire?  There are many members who believe that.  So long as you don't fault me for disagreeing, I won't fault you for believing it.  Obviously, there has not been sufficient revelation for us to be 100% certain one way or the other.  Otherwise, there would be no debate.

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3 hours ago, Anddenex said:

1) The majority individuals who promote macro-evolution do so while proudly denying their reliance on faith.

Bingo on this point. Either way, faith is applied in something that someone has said.
Neither group was around to witness either the "Creation" or "Evolution".

Faith it is... people can call it different names if they like, but it is still "faith" in something unseen.

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On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 11:02 AM, person0 said:

Why would that set people's hair on fire?  There are many members who believe that.  So long as you don't fault me for disagreeing, I won't fault you for believing it.  Obviously, there has not been sufficient revelation for us to be 100% certain one way or the other.  Otherwise, there would be no debate.

By no means do I intend to single out any particular post but there are concepts I want to review concerning the general theology of the LDS or Mormons.  From time to time there are statements that seem to indicate that if divine revelation is lacking and missing for many scientific or other discoveries – we can ignore that and many other things.  The idea is that – if “There are no revelations” on a particular subject – we can interpret such as meaning that G-d and the church (the Saints of G-d) do not care what anybody thinks or purports on the subject.   I personally think this mentality is very closely related to the excuses of Laman and Lemual when they argued with Nephi – “G-d makes no such thing known to us.”  Nephi response is – “Have you enquired of the L-rd?”

We are admonished that if we lack understanding – rather than sit around and wait for an apostle or prophet to enlighten us – we should inquire of G-d (as did Joseph Smith).  But Oliver Cowdry learned, as recorded in the D&C that many things do not come just because we inquire concerning them.  We are told to study it out in our heart and mind.  To seek wisdom from the “best” books.  We are also told that it is a “wicked” and “perverse” generation that must be “commanded in all things”.  We are also told that “all things” denote that there is a G-d and testify of Christ.  I believe we will only understand this by utilizing our covenant concerning the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I interpret this admonishment as a key to our covenant to unleash the powers of the Holy Ghost where we can fulfill the promises made in Mormoni Chapter 10 and know the truth of all things.  Now, I want to add something – I am not sure that the purpose of such exercises is so we can put those less diligent in their place with the abundances of knowledge we have amassed but rather as a means to encourage, minister and lift others to seek understanding to their questions.  Again our scripture denote that generally if someone gets what they supposed to be a little authority (or might I add revelation?) that it is the nature of almost everybody to immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.  At this point I will leave to the reader to understand what is meant by unrighteous dominion.

 

The Traveler

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Guest Scott
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Waiting millions of years to create a body through organic evolution would be a waste of time, when all God needed are the elements that make up a human body.

 

I don't think God is so bound by time that a few million years would matter, but to me at least there are advantages and reasons for the earth to be millions of years old.

Some of God's gifts to man that involved ancient organisms:

1.  Oxygen.   Oxygen came from prehistoric organisms (created by God).  10 points.

2.  Fossil fuels.   Fossil fuels came from prehistoric plant and animal life.  Alternatives may be able to be found in the future, but for right now how would our lives be without God's gift of coal and oil?  10 points.

3.   Steel.   Steel is infused with carbon that came from prehistoric life. 10 points.

4.   Concrete.  Cement used to make concrete comes from prehistoric life.  10 points.

5.   My wife's artificial heart valve (who wouldn't be grateful for that?).    The carbon alloy used to make the heart valve was made from products that came from prehistoric life.   10 points.

6.  Deodorant.   Thank God for that invention, right?  Much of Deodorant's ingredients come from prehistoric life.  10 points.

7.  Plastics.  Made from prehistoric life.   10 points.

8.  Tires.   Made from prehistoric life.  10 points.

9.  Medicines.  Many of them are made from products resulting from prehistoric life.  10 points.

10.  A whole bunch of stuff from guitar strings to much of the space shuttle, all made from products that came from prehistoric life.  10 points.

God's scorecard on using prehistoric life for wise purposes = 100 points.   Perfect score.   Good job God.

How would our lives be without any of the above?

Prehistoric life was a waste of time?  I think not.

Thank you God for spending your time in creating all of these wonderful gifts to us.

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10 hours ago, Scott said:

 

I don't think God is so bound by time that a few million years would matter, but to me at least there are advantages and reasons for the earth to be millions of years old.

Some of God's gifts to man that involved ancient organisms:

1.  Oxygen.   Oxygen came from prehistoric organisms (created by God).  10 points.

2.  Fossil fuels.   Fossil fuels came from prehistoric plant and animal life.  Alternatives may be able to be found in the future, but for right now how would our lives be without God's gift of coal and oil?  10 points.

3.   Steel.   Steel is infused with carbon that came from prehistoric life. 10 points.

4.   Concrete.  Cement used to make concrete comes from prehistoric life.  10 points.

5.   My wife's artificial heart valve (who wouldn't be grateful for that?).    The carbon alloy used to make the heart valve was made from products that came from prehistoric life.   10 points.

6.  Deodorant.   Thank God for that invention, right?  Much of Deodorant's ingredients come from prehistoric life.  10 points.

7.  Plastics.  Made from prehistoric life.   10 points.

8.  Tires.   Made from prehistoric life.  10 points.

9.  Medicines.  Many of them are made from products resulting from prehistoric life.  10 points.

10.  A whole bunch of stuff from guitar strings to much of the space shuttle, all made from products that came from prehistoric life.  10 points.

God's scorecard on using prehistoric life for wise purposes = 100 points.   Perfect score.   Good job God.

How would our lives be without any of the above?

Prehistoric life was a waste of time?  I think not.

Thank you God for spending your time in creating all of these wonderful gifts to us.

I would change one thing in your post - carbon is not created or made from prehistoric life - rather carbon is produced by the evolution of stars in what is classically called the third to forth generation of evolving stars as a process of nuclear fusion.   Our current sun cannot account for the carbon or a great many other elements present on this planet and solar system - other factors do not account for these elements coming from a hear-by star that went super-nova.    The fact that carbon exist here on earth in the abundance that it does (along with other elements - especially the heavy metals) has no consistent explanation.  Obviously evolution, on so many observable levels, relies on "things" other that random circumstance and is very cause and effect dependent.

 

The Traveler

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I would change one thing in your post - carbon is not created or made from prehistoric life

Prehistoric life doesn't create atoms/elements, such as carbon, but is built of carbon and we get carbon supplies from what remains of that ancient life.

For example, steel is alloyed with carbon that used to be prehistoric plant life.    You can still see the remains of such life in the coal.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/26/2018 at 2:37 PM, vitaminwater120 said:

According to the October 2016 edition of New Era, "nothing has been revealed about evolution" and "the Church has no official position on evolution."

But the Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith and the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson spoke plainly against evolution.  The Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith taught: 

"It has been truthfully said that organic evolution is Satan’s chief weapon in this dispensation in his attempt to destroy the divine mission of Jesus Christ. It is a contemptible plot against faith in God and to destroy the effective belief in the divine atonement of our Redeemer� There is not and cannot be, any compromise between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the theories of evolution. Were evolution true, there could be no remission of sin. In fact there could be no sin. (Ibid., p. 184)"

And the Prophet Ezra Taft Benson taught:

"Now, we have not been using the Book of Mormon as we should. Our homes are not as strong unless we are using it to bring our children to Christ. Our families may be corrupted by worldly trends and teachings unless we know how to use the book to expose and combat the falsehoods in socialism, organic evolution, rationalism, humanism, etc."

If the teachings of our own prophets don't constitute an "official position" for a given topic, then the church doesn't have an official position on anything. 

I really don't believe in Organic Evolution but......

I do believe that our Creator in a sense Evolved.... in that G-d would get better and better at creation throughout far more than merely 13.72 billion years in the past.  Chapter 13 of Stephen Hawking's Universe is called The Anthropic Principle and in it he explains an Atheistic version of the Cyclic Model of the Universe.  

What he wrote there reminds me of what near death experiencer Mellen Benedict was shown:

 

https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05
 

Quote

 

5. The Void
 

At this point of my near-death experience, I found myself in a profound stillness, beyond all silence. I could see or perceive FOREVER, beyond Infinity. I was in the Void.

 

I was in pre creation, before the Big Bang. I had crossed over the beginning of time / the First Word/the First vibration. I was in the Eye of Creation. I felt as if I was touching the Face of God. It was not a religious feeling. Simply I was at one with Absolute Life and Consciousness. When I say that I could see or perceive forever, I mean that I could experience all of creation generating itself. It was without beginning and without end. That’s a mind-expanding thought, isn’t it? Scientists perceive the Big Bang as a single event that created the Universe. I saw during my life after death experience that the Big Bang is only one of an infinite number of Big Bangs creating Universes endlessly and simultaneously. The only images that even come close in human terms would be those created by super computers using fractal geometry equations.
 
The ancients knew of this. They said God had periodically created new Universes by breathing out, and recreated other Universes by breathing in. These epochs were called Yugas. Modern science called this the Big Bang. I was in absolute, pure consciousness. I could see or perceive all the Big Bangs or Yugas creating and recreating themselves. Instantly I entered into them all simultaneously. I saw that each and every little piece of creation has the power to create. It is very difficult to try to explain this. I am still speechless about this.
 

 

 

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I believe that the Ancient of Days the FAther and the Holy Spirit and the Word / Logos and the other Elohim would be working and creating from infinite time in the past...... Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman's writings set the stage for a Theistic Version of Evolutionary Theory that basically.... has G-d evolving and learning over eternity in the past.... and then Adam and Eve would be created six or seven thousand years or so ago..... 

You can find some quotations from Dr. Tejman here.  This one has made me wonder if the Holy Spirit could turn out to be G-d the Mother???

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm
 

"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

http://carbonbias.blogspot.com/

John 5:17

But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
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I believe that the State of Utah could be the first USA State to put our text books that can compete with 

Atheistic Evolutionary Theory....... and I highly recommend working with Dr. Chaim Tejman and his family on the idea:

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/Book4/Html/Origin_of_life.htm

 

After the eighteen  minute mark of this video Rabbi Alon Anava describes that the coding for the material universe..... are the twenty two letters of the Hebrew alphabet.........

 

 

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The Hebrew word for create, bara, does not mean to create out of nothing. It is merely forming or organizing something that already exists, the same way a person can organize raw materials to "create" a finished product, like a car. This seems to be in alignment with the first law of thermodynamics, which says that energy cannot be created or destroyed. God was not a magician, creating something out of nothing; he wasimply organizing matter.

Now, on to the evolution topic. I believe in evolution in the sense that things change over time. But there are clear and obvious limitations within every species. Micro+Micro+Miro+Micro, no matter how many times you do it, will never equal macroevolution. I have a hard time reconciling this belief, especially considering macroevolution isn't observable, testable, or repeatable. Also, I would note that the excerpt below appears in Genesis 1-2 of the Old Testament Institute Manual. Hardly seems like the Church was taking a neutral stance. But maybe that's just how I was interpreting it... There's much, much more said in the link I provided. But hopefully this suffices for now:

 

Quote

If progressive evolution from simple to complex is correct, the ancestors to these full-blown living creatures in the Cambrian should be found; but they have not been found. …

“On the basis of the facts alone, on the basis of what is actually found in the earth, the theory of a sudden creative act in which the major forms of life were established fits best.” (Coffin, Creation, pp. [5–6].)

Basic Kinds of Animals Have Not Changed

“Scientists who study fossils have discovered another interesting piece of information. Not only did complicated animals appear suddenly in the lower Cambrian rocks, but the basic forms of animals have not changed much since then. … To put it more plainly, this is the problem of the missing links. It is not a case of one missing link. It is not even a case of many missing links. Evolutionists are confronted with the problem of whole sections of the chain of life missing. …

“G. G. Simpson, quite aware of this problem also, says, ‘It is a feature of the known fossil record that most taxa appear abruptly. They are not, as a rule, led up to by a sequence of almost imperceptible changing forerunners such as Darwin believed should be usual in evolution.’ [The Evolution of Life, p. 149.]

“Thus we see that not only is the sudden appearance of complete and intricate animals a problem for evolution, but the absence of change from one major type into another is equally serious. Again we can say that this is no new problem. Soon after collectors started accumulating fossils, it became obvious that fossils belong in the same major categories as do modern animals and plants. A number of scientists have commented in recent years about the lack of change and the absence of connecting links for specific kinds of animals. …

 

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