Thoughts on babyfeeding in the church


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35 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Different people are made uncomfortable by different things

But most people in the US are uncomfortable by public uncovered breast feeding. So don’t do it

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38 minutes ago, Fether said:

But most people in the US are uncomfortable by public uncovered breast feeding. So don’t do it

That's true, but I think that needs to change.  I think it's a lingering side effect of a very puritannical point of view that dominated American thinking for a long time.  There's nothing at all inappropriate about breastfeeding.  

I do agree that a certain amount of discretion is in order, because not everyone, especially adolescent boys, is mature enough to handle it... but draping a baby blanket should be plenty.

Edited by unixknight
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12 minutes ago, unixknight said:

I think it's a lingering side effect of a very puritannical point of view that dominated American thinking for a long time.  There's nothing at all inappropriate about breastfeeding.  

It’s the breasts that are the issue, not the act. Do you think that women should also be able to go jogging topless? It is more cool and freeing to do so I would imagine. Am I being puritanical in expecting women to run with clothes on?

I am very comfortable buying tampons in a market for my wife, or  seeing a women walk away to put a tampon in in a bathroom, but don’t do it in public even if you define it as beautiful and natural.

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7 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s the breasts that are the issue, not the act. Do you think that women should also be able to go jogging topless? It is more cool and freeing to do so I would imagine. Am I being puritanical in expecting women to run with clothes on?

I am very comfortable buying tampons in a market for my wife, or  seeing a women walk away to put a tampon in in a bathroom, but don’t do it in public even if you define it as beautiful and natural.

Jogging topless? Two black eyes.

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1 hour ago, unixknight said:

It isn't that simple.  Different people are made uncomfortable by different things.  One can't possibly anticipate the hangups of tandom group of strangers.

Of course a person can't anticipate everything but it wouldn't hurt to err on the side of caution.

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9 minutes ago, Fether said:

It’s the breasts that are the issue, not the act. Do you think that women should also be able to go jogging topless? It is more cool and freeing to do so I would imagine. Am I being puritanical in expecting women to run with clothes on?

That's rather a strawman argument, especially since I specifically said earlier that nobody's arguing for going topless.  I also clearly said some discretion is in order.

Edited by unixknight
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13 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

To me, the issue is about manners and common courtesy. Depending on *the culture you are in*, you don't do things that make others uncomfortable. Simple as that.

I agree with Manners Matter that, well, manners matter. But breastfeeding should not be about "manners".

My wife nursed all our children, and when she did so in public, she covered her shoulder and the baby with a blanket. BUT...that was for HER comfort. She disliked the idea of exposing herself at all. The blanket was for HER, not for other people.

I am among the more conservative/traditional posters on this board, and I'm very much in favor of modesty (and of good manners). But I staunchly maintain that nursing -- breastfeeding -- is not about manners. It's about feeding the baby. And if some people, myself included, may get uncomfortable when a mother exposes her breast to feed her baby, that is THEIR (OUR) problem, not the mother's. I do not believe that "society" has a problem with open breastfeeding, but if it does, that is SOCIETY's problem, not the mother's.

If a mother were actually to make a huge production out of breastfeeding, deliberately exposing herself as much as possible in order to garner attention or something, then I would agree that she's being immodest and acting shamefully. But in that case, it would have nothing directly to do with breastfeeding per se, but instead with her exhibitionism. I personally have never witnessed such a thing, and I suspect such cases are exceedingly rare. So count me as a firm member of the let-mothers-breastfeed-as-they-need-to-even-without-a-blanket camp.

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4 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Do the teenage deacons who are about to pass the sacrament when the Sister immediately next to them pulls out her fully exposed breast posses executive function?
I would submit that they are no longer thinking about the true meaning of the sacrament at that point, let alone, "you have a beautiful child". 

More than anything, this is perhaps a commentary on our failure as a people to teach our young men correct principles.

When a breast is used as an alluring sexual device to seduce young men (or even old men who aren't married to the breast-bearer), that is by definition a perversion. When a breast is used for feeding an infant, that is rather the opposite of a perversion.

True, there are and have been societies that expect a mother to keep her children hidden away. Children should be seen and not heard, and preferably not even seen until they are old enough to be out in public around age 15. I hope that Latter-day Saint culture is not like that.

Many here have compared nursing a baby to toilet functions. I certainly agree that, for example, changing a baby's diaper on a church pew is absolutely out of line. But that is because toilet functions are not done publicly in our society; we have created special areas just for that. Nursing simply does not compare.

Many women, such as my wife, do not want to expose themselves in any public setting, and will at least use a blanket if not remove themselves entirely for nursing their baby. Many mothers have babies who are voracious and very loud nursers, who sound like little pigs at the trough, and who are embarrassed by the attention drawn to them. In such cases, it's appropriate and even polite for the mothers to excuse themselves from general company. But for women who don't feel quite so exposed or vulnerable, and whose babies nurse quietly at the breast, I just don't see why nursing in public should constitute some sort of scandal.

...All that said, we should be sensitive to the feelings of others. If a mother turns into a crusader, baring her nursing breast just to poke a thumb into the eye of old Brother Jones who doesn't approve, then shame on her. What an unChristlike attitude on her part. I suspect that she will stand guilty before God for the actions of her heart more than old Brother Jones and his "Puritanical" background. (Since when did we accept "Puritanical" as a pejorative, anyway? In many areas, we could stand to emulate the Puritans more than we do.)

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2 minutes ago, Manners Matter said:

Oh, please.

fyi - when you go with an extreme response, you lose credibility.

You said to err on the side of caution when avoiding possibly offending someone in a random group of strangers.  I'm pointing out that the logical conclusion to that approach is to cover 100%.  

Since I assume you would not go that far, you have to draw the line somewhere.  Essentially acknowledging that somebody is going to have to be an adult and deal with it.  That's what we're saying about public breastfeeding.

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7 minutes ago, Vort said:

 (Since when did we accept "Puritanical" as a pejorative, anyway? In many areas, we could stand to emulate the Puritans more than we do.)

Know what's funny?  I was researching Puritains becsuse of the appropriateness of oral thread...  turns out Puritains were quite liberal in their attitudes about sex in a marriage...  though not in public.  Even so I wonder what their views were on breastfeeding.

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Just as an aside, the news report fueling the current round of discussion here, continues to develop.  The lady in question was doing a bit more than just feeding her kiddo. She was apparently sitting fully exposed in the foyer with her one kid, as the sacrament was being passed.  You want to be the deacon's adviser having to instruct your quorum on how to deal with that, and then face the deacon's parents when they disagree?

image.thumb.png.0fd4e87213db12cceeb03011dc399193.png

No really - I'm a massive fan of breastfeeding.  My wife did the "let em feed until they decide to stop", so both daughters went a longer time than a lot of folks feel is appropriate.  Fed is best, and if breastfeeding works, then more power to you.

But no really, awfully heck gosh, we're trying to have a society here.  And that means public nudity is sort of a no-no.  No, we don't alter society just because breastfeeding a baby is the most natural healthy thing in the world.  Grow the crap up, you're now somebody's mommy, and you need to be the adult here.

 

 

Edited by NeuroTypical
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48 minutes ago, unixknight said:

That's rather a strawman argument, especially since I specifically said earlier that nobody's arguing for going topless.  I also clearly said some discretion is in order.

Well it looks like we are on the same page then :) I’m totally fine with breast feeding when covered up, but I won’t support the idea that we should socially allow and tolerate exposed breast feeding

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I would prefer my wife cover up in public.  Also, just knowing her, I know she would feel more comfortable covering herself.  If I saw a woman breastfeeding openly, I probably wouldn't think twice about it, unless she was unduly exposing herself, then I would mostly be saddened by her lack of self-respect, and lack of respect for others.

I do think that covering up is the best route to go.  It is the path of least offense, and its not like its a serious burden to toss a little blanket over ones self and the baby.

Edited by person0
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21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

The lady in question was doing a bit more than just feeding her kiddo. She was apparently sitting fully exposed in the foyer with her one kid, as the sacrament was being passed.

Source?? I believe you, just want to know where the inside scoop is at, and I’m not talking about the ice cream store (though it would be nice to know where that is too)

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3 minutes ago, Fether said:

Source??

Well, I hesitate to post the link, because of all the criticism of our church and it's leaders.  But it is an article on the good4utah.com site published July 27.  The descriptor seems to be "uncovered", not "topless".  Not sure what the other breast was doing while kiddo was busy with one.

"She says there is a mother's lounge in her church building, but because of audio connections, it simply isn't an option for her."

She was called into her Stake President's office where she says he asked her to cover while feeding her baby. She said, "I basically told him that I wasn't planning on changing the way I do it because that's what's comfortable for me and my daughter."

"There is no reason for me to hide, this is a normal, natural thing and it should be viewed that way."

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19 hours ago, Fether said:

I think this is fine, it’s when there is no covering that difficulties arise. 

But one thing I ask myself is why don’t they pre-pump milk or use formula while out in public? I understand there are different philosophies and exceptions, but the question still comes to mind. Again, my biggest issue is women using exposed breast feeding as a way to make a point. 

My baby is the exception. She is 8 months old and to this day she refuses a bottle of any kind. She also has extreme health issues that if given formula would be magnified ten fold. That being said I have nursed her in many places (sacrament being one as I just returned to church after years of inactivity) and no one has ever noticed. I am extremely discrete no boob (let alone nipple) is ever exposed. I also have never used a cover, I wear appropriate clothing that allows for everything to be covered without a specific cover. I am far more discrete without a cover. Have you ever been to a sacrament meeting in another country? It is a none issue in other countries and cultures. I believe the church will not make any kind of official stand on this (do or do not breastfed in sacrament) for that reason (socially acceptance in every country but ours- ok maybe not EVERY country but you get the idea). 

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While I am not opposed to breast feeding, the approached advocated by @Manners Matter reminds me of Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 8: 12-13

12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
 

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While I am not opposed to breast feeding, the approached advocated by @Manners Matter reminds me of Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 8: 12-13

12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
 

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3 hours ago, Vort said:

More than anything, this is perhaps a commentary on our failure as a people to teach our young men correct principles.

When a breast is used as an alluring sexual device to seduce young men

Good point @Vort.
I can see that we can always do more to teach each other correct principles, I don't disagree there.
This brings up the question, "Is a breast sexually alluring all by itself OR is this a learned behavior?"

Ex. Can a 7 year old, previously isolated from the outside world's sexual suggestions/influence come across, for the first time, the woman's underwear section in the direct mail catalog and become aroused?


 

Edited by NeedleinA
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14 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

Good point @Vort.
I can see that we can always do more to teach each other correct principles, I don't disagree there.
This brings up the question, "Is a breast sexually alluring all by itself OR is this a learned behavior?"

Ex. Can a 7 year old, previously isolated from the outside world's sexual suggestions/influence come across, for the first time, come across the woman's underwear section in the direct mail catalog and become aroused?


 

A 7 year old?  Did you mean 17?

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2 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

7 it is. 😉

Ah okay.  Then my answer would be no, because I don't think many 7 year olds get aroused like that yet.

But I understand what you're asking and my answer is that I was never taught, as a kid, to pay any special attention to breasts.  I was aware that men liked them as well as other female body parts like legs.  As I got a little older I eventually found myself liking to notice them, and not so much the other stuff for a while.

So I do believe that attraction is instinctive.

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