What is really going on with Utah’s Suicide Epidemic?


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There is something strange going on in Utah. The State finds itself on two different top-ten lists that you may have seen or heard about. According to the latest Gallup poll, Utah is one of the 10 happiest states in the country. This is a greatly reassuring statistic to hear if you happen to live in the Beehive State. However there is another top 10 list Utah places on that is a little more alarming — suicide (heatmap of US). According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), the specific demographic most at risk of suicide nationwide are teenagers. It is the 2nd leading cause of death for anyone between the ages of 10 and 20, the first being accidents. And according to a CDC investigation in Utah, there has been a "141.3% increase in suicides among Utah youth aged 10-17 from 2011 to 2015, compared to an increase of 23.5% nationally (UDOH)." This statistic is beyond alarming. When I look at these numbers, I am deeply disturbed. And I...

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People commit suicide for a few reasons, usually its feeling very angry and powerless. Or so hurt and sad there is no way out. The church isn't big on feelings they seem to thrive on

blaming and shaming people. If you are hurting or in a situation the church will probably find someone who isn't qualified to teach them a lesson, how powerful the church is.

Whats more important the power of the church or the person who is inside it? What is the power of the church its made up of people. Are you going to reach out IN LOVE to the member or have someone who never experienced what they are going though blindside them and all in unison turn their back on the person?

People are afraid to talk they are afraid of losing temple recommend, they live in fear. One of the meanest things is to have the church all stick together and shame a person out. Its a church. There are also people that never worked outside the home, and their life has been kids the church and husbands money. They have no idea what its like to struggle as a single women. Yet they are given authority in the church. Sometimes you feel like you are being gangstalked, its a bad feeling. An over reach of power with this silent lesson. The message they are sending is you are useless and by the way we treat you, we want you to believe it. It many not be obvious to them but its being done. Then people are in denial and say, Oh I only wanted to help, help what them commit suicide?

 Monitoring everything that people say or write is another thing, let people be themselves you don't have to die because you disagree, however the church will make you feel that way. They all gang up. Thanks for the spirit its mean. 

Make up your minds you are a church or a police, why don't you trust people more, why the constant checking up on them? Thats control and its back stabbing. Those are some of the reasons feeling TRAPPED, Church should be freeing and feeling fed not powerless and in prison or perfect and never good enough.. Its not a competition, its life.

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30 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

 

The church isn't big on feelings they seem to thrive on blaming and shaming people. If you are hurting or in a situation the church will probably find someone who isn't qualified to teach them a lesson, how powerful the church is.

This is incorrect to the degree of infinity.  And beyond.

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I am not going to apologize if you disagree, you are entitled to your opinion. That is mine.

I would welcome to hear more, sadly we can't hear from those who have passed. I know what I am going though, if i didn't think i would get punished more in this time

of need i would share then you come to a conclusion. One more thing, to those who have committed suicide, we know they felt isolated and alone. That there were no options, that it was the only resort to the pain and SHAME or anger they were feeling. There is something that is out of touch, its the powerlessness of feeling misunderstood or that your voice had no validation. Its not complicated each situation different but the feelings are usually the same.  No happy solution, no one that they could share with no solution to the problem. Live in the problem or solution, to often the solution is to read a chapter in a book and thats not a solution. It may be the best they know but its often more harm then good. Its not an action its to passive. When a person is suicidal you need action not some passive read this chapter and see where you may have sinned, or worse yet have someones gossip believed.

Edited by inquisitive
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The caricature @Inquistive paints of Mormonism is even further from the truth now than it has been at any point in the history of the Church since 1838, if not earlier.  Institutional Mormonism’s softening in rhetoric towards those who don’t fully embrace the Church’s ideals has been especially notable over the past forty years or so—and yet the suicides keep increasing.

If @inquisitive‘s diagnosis is correct, then the cure for the modern Mormon suicide “epidemic” is to go back to the halcyon days of Elders Smith, Lee, Kimball, Peterson, McConkie and Packer.  Start calling sin “perversion” again, and get back into the habit of openly labeling nonconformist ideas as “satanic”.  And yet somehow, I doubt that’s the approach @inquisitive is advocating here.

People don’t commit suicide because someone hurt their feewings.  They commit suicide because they are mentally ill and can’t cope with the vicissitudes of everyday life.  To adopt a suicidal a person’s tortured logic and railing, often vindictive last screed against whoever their death was supposed to “get back” at; is to buy into their hateful insanity in a way it scarcely deserves.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Oy.  So much to do here.

"People commit suicide for a few reasons, usually its feeling very angry and powerless. Or so hurt and sad there is no way out."

Yeah.  Using a tragedy to bash an organization you're obviously against.  Classy move inquisitive, but really bad screen name.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/risk-factors-and-warning-signs/

 

"The church isn't big on feelings they seem to thrive on blaming and shaming people. If you are hurting or in a situation the church will probably find someone who isn't qualified to teach them a lesson, how powerful the church is."

I'm a ward finance clerk.  I often write checks to professional counselors, because the bishop has referred someone to a professional.  So yeah, horse hockey inquisitive.

 

"Are you going to reach out IN LOVE to the member or have someone who never experienced what they are going though blindside them and all in unison turn their back on the person?"

Um... Do you have us mixed up with Star Trek or something?
Image result for discommodation animated

 

"Monitoring everything that people say or write is another thing..."

Wait, do we shun everyone AND spy on everyone too?  I'm confused - I thought we were Klingons, not Romulans...

 

"Make up your minds you are a church or a police, why don't you trust people more, why the constant checking up on them? "

Sounds like you haven't made it to the last few antimormon meetings.  The fresh and current criticism is all about how we trust people too much and don't do enough police work to protect our minors.  

Look, I don't know what traumas or struggles or bad experiences you've had friend, but your post is not an example of helping.

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i'll just say on this that the idea that people who complete suicide do so in some final act of childish protest is almost always incorrect - at least in my opinion.  i hope nobody seriously believes that.  

The mormon church looms large in the lives of it's members - and things that loom large cast broad shadows.  Things are beautiful - until you or someone you know falls into that shadow.  And for many born and raised in the mormon faith, it's ideals and culture has been drummed into them so completely, it's next to impossible to just walk away.  You can call that shadow whatever you want - being offended, fruits of sin, or just the pettiness of an organization that clings to it's troubled past.  Or maybe it's a mix of all of those.

The mormon church has definitely played a role in some of my acquaintances who have completed suicide.  Honestly, though - i don't know.  Like what's an acceptable ratio?  How many out-of-wedlock pregnancies ending up in abusive marriages need to be averted to justify the tragedy of a girl who passes away from an eating disorder because of her sexual shame – both because of an incredibly intense focus on the idea of chastity. 

And maybe the truth is that such is a realm where numbers and ratios and percentages mean nothing - at least outside of trying to make political points.  And that the only response that means anything is to think of that one person almost all of us sort of know and make sure they know there are reasons for them to stick around - and places they can exist that are not so painful so as to drive them to madness.

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Everyone is entitled to there own opinion... However no one is entitled to share their opinion and have it be immune from critical thinking, analysis and others opinions.

Now I know it seems to be the trend to blame the Mormon Church for a spike in suicides... but trendy does not make it logical or rational.

After all the Mormon Church and it culture has been established and running for almost 200 years.  Logically and rationally if it caused suicide you would expect it to have been doing so for nearly 200 years...  That would not be a sudden spike or a sudden epidemic that would be a long term trend.

Logically and rationally if something starts going bad/wrong/disastrous... you look for what has changed.  By and large the Mormon Church has not changed.  @Just_A_Guy has pointed out that our Leadership changed the tone of the message to be less Fire and Brimstone to more loving and kind.  As far as I can tell no one really wants to make the case that more "kindness" being preached is the problem.  But that is really the only change from the Mormon Church on the subject..

But the Mormon Church is not the only voice being heard...  The world has a voice too and it has changed dramatically in recent memory.

In recent memory the world has changed from recognizing that people have problems and difficulties (aka Sin) but they can change and things can get better; to being "born this way."  While on the surface 'born this way' might seem liberating by taking away agency and accountably it also means something else.  It means "This is as good as it gets" nothing can make things any better.

Now the cause for suicide is complex... but I can only imagine that for someone seriously considering it... at that low point in their life, the repeated thought that "This is as good as it gets" is very dangerous.

But the world will only claim logic and rationality when it suits its agenda... the rest of the time they will weaponize tragedies and selectively ignore the complete message the church gives.  They focus on the "You are a sinner" and ignore the "but Christ is there for you and will help you get better." part.   And they completely ignore their own message which tells them that they have no hope whatsoever because of their biology and things will never change.

But hey if it make you feel better to blame the church instead of what has really changed, knock yourself out... Just do not expect your opinion to carry much weight
 

 

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5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yeah.  Using a tragedy to bash an organization you're obviously against.  Classy move inquisitive, but really bad screen name.

https://afsp.org/about-suicide/risk-factors-and-warning-signs/

@NeuroTypical (and really, it's a discussion board so anyone can comment)- Samaritan is a suicide prevention organization in the UK. What do you think about their guidelines for media reporting of suicides?

I'll include highlights that stick out to me.

Quote

Research consistently demonstrates strong links between certain types of media coverage and increases in suicide rates. This risk significantly increases if details of suicide methods are reported, if the story is placed prominently and if the coverage is extensive or sensationalised – particularly in the case of celebrity deaths.

Quote

Remember that there is a risk of imitational behaviour due to ‘over-identification’.

Vulnerable individuals may identify with a person who has died, or with the circumstances in which a person took their own life.

For example, combining references to life circumstances, say a debt problem or job loss, and descriptions of an easy-to-imitate suicide method in the same report, could put at greater risk people who are vulnerable as a result of financial stress.

Quote
  • Over-simplification of the causes or perceived ‘triggers’ for a suicide can be misleading and is unlikely to reflect accurately the complexity of suicide.
    For example, avoid the suggestion that a single incident, such as loss of a job, relationship breakdown or bereavement, was the cause.
  • It is important not to brush over the complex realities of suicide and its devastating impact on those left behind.
Quote
  • Don’t label locations as ‘hot spots’ or refer to a possible rise in suicides in a particular place or among a specific group as an ‘epidemic’.
  • Be careful not to promote the idea that suicide achieves results.
    For example, that, as a result of someone taking their own life, a bully was exposed or made to apologise.
Quote

Your story might have an effect on vulnerable individuals or people connected to the person who has died.

Providing information on how to contact appropriate local and national sources of support can encourage people experiencing emotional problems or suicidal thoughts to seek help.

It can save lives.

With that reminder, I should probably post this: 

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline Phone Number

1-800-273-8255

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11 hours ago, lostinwater said:

[1]i'll just say on this that the idea that people who complete suicide do so in some final act of childish protest is almost always incorrect - at least in my opinion.  i hope nobody seriously believes that.  

[2]The mormon church looms large in the lives of it's members - and things that loom large cast broad shadows.  Things are beautiful - until you or someone you know falls into that shadow.  And for many born and raised in the mormon faith, it's ideals and culture has been drummed into them so completely, it's next to impossible to just walk away.  You can call that shadow whatever you want - being offended, fruits of sin, or just the pettiness of an organization that clings to it's troubled past.  Or maybe it's a mix of all of those.

[3]The mormon church has definitely played a role in some of my acquaintances who have completed suicide.  Honestly, though - i don't know.  Like what's an acceptable ratio?  How many out-of-wedlock pregnancies ending up in abusive marriages need to be averted to justify the tragedy of a girl who passes away from an eating disorder because of her sexual shame – both because of an incredibly intense focus on the idea of chastity. 

[4]And maybe the truth is that such is a realm where numbers and ratios and percentages mean nothing - at least outside of trying to make political points.  And that the only response that means anything is to think of that one person almost all of us sort of know and make sure they know there are reasons for them to stick around - and places they can exist that are not so painful so as to drive them to madness.

1.  The trouble with this is, the LGBTQ community has spilt so much ink lionozong people like Josh/Leelah Alcorn; whose suicidal psychosis included a great deal of vindictiveness.  

2-3.  I think the power of LDS culture/lifestyle to “loom large” in people’s lives derives less from formal indoctrination (though there’s certainly a lot of that), and more from the truth of its precepts and the bald fact that those precepts, put into practice, work.  Whether by divine design or just some grand theory of human psychology that Mormonism has stumbled into, the sum total of Mormonism’s life advice tend to optimize one’s life experiences when applied in toto.   One can leave Mormonism as an intellectual/spiritual exercise; but deviate too far from Mormon behavioral mores and one eventually gets an unshakeable feeling that they’re living inauthentially to their nature—whether one considers that nature a product of divine creation or evolutionary psychology.  I think your trade-off scenario is on-point:  Even assuming that an LGBTQ person would be fine *but for* Mormonism and its teachings, if Mormonism were to stop teaching its take on chastity, just by demographics you’d be hurting 8-9 non-LGBTQ people for every LGBTQ one that you were “helping”. 

4.  I agree that on a personal level, it’s on each of us to show kindness whenever we can.  But when determining policy, barring divine influence—again, I think the pre-eminent consideration has to be what works for the greatest number.  In this context—LDS-style chastity is what “works”, and we can’t help but notice that as society has wandered away from our values dysfunction and suicide have skyrocketed. That’s one of my pet peeves about social progressives generally:  they ignore conservatives’ advice again and again and again, and then run around screaming about how it’s conservatives’ responsibility to fix problems that wouldn’t have blown up if progressives had just taken the conservatives’ advice in the first place. 

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11 hours ago, lostinwater said:

 But have left.  

Sorry to hear, honestly.
Here is a great video that I really enjoy. I'm not trying to compare this video to you directly, but you may find some honest value in it, especially when he talks about "why" he was so angry at the church.

 

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5 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Sorry to hear, honestly.
Here is a great video that I really enjoy. I'm not trying to compare this video to you directly, but you may find some honest value in it, especially when he talks about "why" he was so angry at the church.

Thanks!  

i'd watched that video before :)    i listen to a lot of the experiences of other people who've left the Mormon church (not citing any sources out of respect for forum rules) - and i try to mix in alternative viewpoints.  i'm also going through "Rough Stone Rolling" right now just because i've been subjected to so much anti-JS stuff that i know not all of it could be true.  And it isn't.  He's a much more decent fellow than i used to think.  i've come to realize that there aren't many angels or demons (including organizations).  That like Solzhenitsyn said, "the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being".

i have gone through times of moderate frustration with the Mormon church.  But i've never been lividly angry at it.  That's certainly the narrative most people who leave are assumed to follow.  A kind of middle-fingered jump out of "the boat" into waters filled with the sharks of drug addiction and immorality and frustrated meaninglessness.  That everyone who leaves does so in violation of their own knowledge of the truth.  That people who leave still view God and Mormon church as being the same thing as they stride off.  

Maybe that happens to some people.  But that's not been my experience.  And honestly, i didn't leave over any specific doctrinal issue.  The real reason wasn't that i saw something i didn't like (though i did) - and more just that i saw something else i valued more.  A shift in goals, i guess.  All precipitated by a brush with death (no, not suicide).  Odd how that sharpens one's viewpoint.    

And believe me, i'm not claiming to be any wiser or better than anyone else.  Most of the things i 'reailzed' i've since failed pretty spectacularly at putting into practice.  And beyond that, i don't even claim that my path is the exclusive right path.  In the ways in which a person ought to be exceptional, i am abysmally normal, and in the ways in which a person ought to be conventional, i am profoundly weird!  But anyways, i don't think God and Jesus need every living breathing being inside a tabernacle on Sunday for 3 hours.  And maybe at the same time He desperately needs millions who are!  Maybe He's got to spread us around a bit - and maybe that's OK.

Anyways, i don't see myself coming back.  i mean, i could PUT myself back.  i could be PHYSICALLY present.  i did that for years.  But emotionally - it's just not there.  That, and i have a hard time keeping my mouth shut like i should out of respect when i am there.... :)  

Moderators - delete if you need.  i tried to respect forum rules, but i can see how this might be too much.  Do whatever you feel is best.

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8 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  The trouble with this is, the LGBTQ community has spilt so much ink lionozong people like Josh/Leelah Alcorn; whose suicidal psychosis included a great deal of vindictiveness.  

 2-3.  I think the power of LDS culture/lifestyle to “loom large” in people’s lives derives less from formal indoctrination (though there’s certainly a lot of that), and more from the truth of its precepts and the bald fact that those precepts, put into practice, work.  Whether by divine design or just some grand theory of human psychology that Mormonism has stumbled into, the sum total of Mormonism’s life advice tend to optimize one’s life experiences when applied in toto.   One can leave Mormonism as an intellectual/spiritual exercise; but deviate too far from Mormon behavioral mores and one eventually gets an unshakeable feeling that they’re living inauthentially to their nature—whether one considers that nature a product of divine creation or evolutionary psychology.  I think your trade-off scenario is on-point:  Even assuming that an LGBTQ person would be fine *but for* Mormonism and its teachings, if Mormonism were to stop teaching its take on chastity, just by demographics you’d be hurting 8-9 non-LGBTQ people for every LGBTQ one that you were “helping”. 

4.  I agree that on a personal level, it’s on each of us to show kindness whenever we can.  But when determining policy, barring divine influence—again, I think the pre-eminent consideration has to be what works for the greatest number.  In this context—LDS-style chastity is what “works”, and we can’t help but notice that as society has wandered away from our values dysfunction and suicide have skyrocketed. That’s one of my pet peeves about social progressives generally:  they ignore conservatives’ advice again and again and again, and then run around screaming about how it’s conservatives’ responsibility to fix problems that wouldn’t have blown up if progressives had just taken the conservatives’ advice in the first place. 

Thanks!

Yeah, honestly, i'd agree with just about all of this.  

i do think specific sects - not naming names because they all do it - have a tendency to base their claims of exclusive divinity (or at least the fullness thereof) off of the functionality of precepts they hardly own, but act as if they do. i guess you have to allow some bad with the good, but there are a lot of people for whom  the prescriptive formulas just don't work.  And a lot of those people blame themselves when those formulas don't work (many have not been raised in a way that provides context for any alternative explanation) - some taking it all the way to self harm or suicide.  Not making a demand or trying to prove a point - just relating what i've seen.

And i will say - i hope people don't think that the people in the LGBT community the media covers actually represent it.  Like most wars, you have people on the edges of the distribution whipping up everyone closer to the center into a frenzied kind of war against one another.  

And the other thing i cringe at is when people assume that if the 'other' would just go away, then it would all be good.  i really think that the people who disagree with us (and i'm including myself in my own rebuke) are far more necessary to maintaining some semblance of a balance in society than we'd care to admit!  

Edited by lostinwater
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2 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Anyways, i don't see myself coming back.

Let me ask in the spirit of frankness, if you have left and "don't see yourself coming back"... what is the draw to you being present here then? What is the desired goal or outcome you hope to arrive at or achieve?

Edited by NeedleinA
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5 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Let me ask in the spirit of frankness, if you have left and "don't see yourself coming back"... what is the draw to you being present here then? What is the desired goal or outcome you hope to arrive at or achieve?

Thanks!

Fair question.

i guess it's to remind myself, and maybe show others in the process that those who disagree with us aren't as evil and malicious as our imaginations make them out to be.  i think if i didn't put that idea inside the gaping hole that is left when a person born/raised in the mormon church has to leave, a red-hot, mostly unjustified indignation would burn me right down to the ground.  

But joking and melodrama aside, you've got some great personalities here - just have to take time to get to know them!  :)  

Edited by lostinwater
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On 8/4/2018 at 5:00 PM, MormonHub said:

There is something strange going on in Utah. The State finds itself on two different top-ten lists that you may have seen or heard about. According to the latest Gallup poll, Utah is one of the 10 happiest states in the country. This is a greatly reassuring statistic to hear if you happen to live in the Beehive State. However there is another top 10 list Utah places on that is a little more alarming — suicide (heatmap of US). According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), the specific demographic most at risk of suicide nationwide are teenagers. It is the 2nd leading cause of death for anyone between the ages of 10 and 20, the first being accidents. 

A question might be who in Utah is happy and who are killing themselves. My sister in law lives in Utah and she feels she should share the gospel with her non member friends but is hesitant to do so because she says that they are happier than she is. 

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4 hours ago, BJ64 said:

A question might be who in Utah is happy and who are killing themselves. My sister in law lives in Utah and she feels she should share the gospel with her non member friends but is hesitant to do so because she says that they are happier than she is. 

Then your sister in law has a warped understanding of "happy".  

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Here is a link to an article the church has put out on suicide prevention. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/reach-out-in-love-to-those-considering-suicide-elder-renlund?cid=email-IN_080518_English_CTA2

I think this is an interesting statement from Elder Renlund. 

The Latter-day Saint leader says the “old sectarian notion that suicide is a sin and that someone who commits suicide is banished to hell forever” is “totally false.”

Its isteresting that something I was taught in the church all the while I was growing up and even until recent years is now “an old sectarian notion”. 

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Guest MormonGator
15 hours ago, BJ64 said:

A question might be who in Utah is happy and who are killing themselves. My sister in law lives in Utah and she feels she should share the gospel with her non member friends but is hesitant to do so because she says that they are happier than she is. 

We never know who is happier than we are. People can struggle with things that we have no clue about. 

22 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Let me ask in the spirit of frankness, if you have left and "don't see yourself coming back"... what is the draw to you being present here then? What is the desired goal or outcome you hope to arrive at or achieve?

A lot of people are here because they genuinely enjoy the other people around here, regardless of what religion they are. 

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Guest MormonGator

I'm worried that some members will stick their heads in the sand about this (no, I don't see that happening here). Go ask the Catholic church how that works and what happens afterwards. 

Even if there isn't a "suicide epidemic in Utah" lots of people think there is a suicide epidemic in Utah. So that alone means we have some perception problems. 

Edited by MormonGator
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