What is really going on with Utah’s Suicide Epidemic?


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Guest MormonGator
16 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

you mean and build a sand castle with them? (just kidding with you Gator:))

lol! Long day.  

No worries at all my friend. 

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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:24 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

The caricature @Inquistive paints of Mormonism is even further from the truth now than it has been at any point in the history of the Church since 1838, if not earlier.  Institutional Mormonism’s softening in rhetoric towards those who don’t fully embrace the Church’s ideals has been especially notable over the past forty years or so—and yet the suicides keep increasing.

 

I can attest to this. As a non-LDS moderator, I've experienced 99% welcome here, an openness to my expressions, and even on the rare occasion when someone wants to be somewhat aggressive, there are usually a few who quickly respond with corrections and affirmations. Then there is the Article of Faith enshrining each human being's autonomy to worship as they see fit. It would be easy to engage in conjecture as to why suicides are rising among the young in Utah, but I doubt any conclusive answers are yet available.

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Here is an excerpt from a report I read. 

  • In 2014 (the year the most recent data is available), the % Mormon in a U.S. state is associated with a higher level of youth suicides in that state. This relationship holds even after statistically controlling for other potential causal factors of suicide such as elevation (altitude), rates of gun ownership, rates of serious mental illness, rural vs. urban, state spending on mental health, and a variety of demographic and socioeconomic factors.
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On ‎8‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:14 PM, lostinwater said:

The mormon church has definitely played a role in some of my acquaintances who have completed suicide.  Honestly, though - i don't know.  Like what's an acceptable ratio?  How many out-of-wedlock pregnancies ending up in abusive marriages need to be averted to justify the tragedy of a girl who passes away from an eating disorder because of her sexual shame – both because of an incredibly intense focus on the idea of chastity. 

Even anti-Mormons usually laude the LDS adherence to biblical sexual mores. In a generation or two, when the studies are done and the books written, I am almost certain that postmodernism will have resulted in far more suicides than rigorous faith practice.

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14 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Even anti-Mormons usually laude the LDS adherence to biblical sexual mores. In a generation or two, when the studies are done and the books written, I am almost certain that postmodernism will have resulted in far more suicides than rigorous faith practice.

Thanks.  Could be.

i tend to think that history books will still be written by the victors and that studies will still tend towards producing the results desired by those who are paying for them.

And may we all be spared from biblical sexual mores!  i tend to think incest and polygamy are bad.  If we practiced biblical sexual mores, our prisons would have more people incarcerated for sexual crimes than are currently imprisoned for drugs.  But i think i understand what you meant.  

But really, when i grieve for those i've lost, i am not demanding that every concept of morality be tossed out the window.  i just wonder at times if a little less force and negative association could be used when conveying them.  At an institutional level, i really don't know.  But at an individual level (aka the only one that matters at all), i think it's definitely possible.  

i definitely see some of the cost that focusing too hard on them produces.  Others can talk about the benefits - but i think there's a middle ground that produces the benefits while reducing the number of casualties.  And to be honest, the cost usually isn't suicide.  At at least not the abrupt kind of suicide that statistics can measure.  There are a million ways a person can act out their pain while still in their body.

And in fairness, the mormon church *is* changing - as is the LGBT community.  Both are better now than they were 40 years ago (like a lot better).  i think the mormon church is way more accepting, and i think the LGBT community has done a better job at being such that it's constituents can function more stably in society (a win win).  So props to both of them for that.  If everyone avoids their impulses to destroy the other, my guess is a workable middle ground will eventually be reached.

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Perhaps my perspective is skewed because I live in the anti-bible belt. Postmodernism reigns supreme in the Pacific Northwest. In my county 2% attend a house of worship on any given weekend. Yet, my senior year (back in the 80s), we had 2 suicides and 3 deaths by drinking/drugs and driving. I had a teen friend get another girl pregnant. Parties were easily accessible, and the marijuana guy could provide joints for 50-cents. In my church, as many as half of the marriages are actually remarriages. A young person shows up pregnant (or gets someone pregnant) and we love them, Will there be counseling? Most likely. Any shame will likely be shed during a time of prayer.

What has this postmodern, libertine moral culture gotten us. Some communities have 70% of households without a dad. There are not enough foster families, much less adoptive ones. Classroom turnover rates are near 40% (meaning a teacher will lose and gain nearly half her class each year). Instead of blaming all this on the lack of chastity, our school districts and local politicians blame systemic racism and a hard-hearted middle class, unwilling to pay more taxes for more government programs.

So, sure, ask churches to be a little more compassionate and a little less high-pressure on the morals. On the other hand, from where I sit, the idea that the church has outsized influence on the culture's sexual practices is downright alien.

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I just decided to poke around, so nurero typical is indeed very typical. thin skinned and thinks he she is slick and smarter then people who really  HAVE experience with suicide. But you'rre smarter. Sorry you are the senior moderator. What do you know about suicide? What do you really kno

Next time you are in a loced unit, with no one to call, you know not generations of family and a ward, let me know. Let me know how you worked your way out as a kid with no family.

I am not going to put my business on this board, by now I know what I am dealing with. Proportionately the percentage of Mormons who work for the government is so high I forget I am in church and feel like I am in court.  How dare they, share government misinformation with the people in the church. If the are going to share start telling the truth. Its against the law to bring in sensitive gov information with anyone, isn't that the separation of church and state?

The church needs to decide if they want to play a court of punishment and mocking or have compassion and healing and become the LDS they profess to be. 

They need to be honest with the people and let them know if its a government agency or a house of God, it can't be both, if you think it can you are only lying to yourselves and the people.

I forgot its more about who hold the POWER then who is well and needs help. We are going to MAKE SURE every bit of this last chapter of your life is pure hell, why because we can, we are GOD.  Thats not Christian or LDS its being a show off and an over reach. Its sadistic and its cruel Its also not a sign that LDS is working for you, you seem miserable. Happy people are not into sadistic torture.

You are as sick as your secrets and boy do you have a lot of those. yes, suicide can grow like a cancer unless there are TRAINED people to go to. I know the bishops do the best they can but some are just over worked and very young they just don't have the life experience of what it takes to deal with a person in crises. One more thing, there are them and there is us mentality, people can feel the prejudice. If there is one who feels slighted the whole hierarchy feels the same way. Own your own feelings not everything you hear is the truth. Why do you always protect the one with the most money?  

Its a house of God sometimes the people are last and the church punishing and manipulating is more important then healing and lessons of love and compassion from Jesus Christ.

I never knew the church had the right to disciple a person are you kidding me? No wonder there is suicide, its a church not a court room. .

The entire church shameing a person to leaving when they are in crises by "ghosting" them is an old psy-op manipulation tactic. Why because it hurts. Those are some of the reasons

people commit suicide. I know someone is smarter and or will have to jump on board and condemn me., I have a secret God doesn't need you or I to keep score, He does very well without us.

 

 

.

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56 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Perhaps my perspective is skewed because I live in the anti-bible belt. Postmodernism reigns supreme in the Pacific Northwest. In my county 2% attend a house of worship on any given weekend. Yet, my senior year (back in the 80s), we had 2 suicides and 3 deaths by drinking/drugs and driving. I had a teen friend get another girl pregnant. Parties were easily accessible, and the marijuana guy could provide joints for 50-cents. In my church, as many as half of the marriages are actually remarriages. A young person shows up pregnant (or gets someone pregnant) and we love them, Will there be counseling? Most likely. Any shame will likely be shed during a time of prayer.

What has this postmodern, libertine moral culture gotten us. Some communities have 70% of households without a dad. There are not enough foster families, much less adoptive ones. Classroom turnover rates are near 40% (meaning a teacher will lose and gain nearly half her class each year). Instead of blaming all this on the lack of chastity, our school districts and local politicians blame systemic racism and a hard-hearted middle class, unwilling to pay more taxes for more government programs.

So, sure, ask churches to be a little more compassionate and a little less high-pressure on the morals. On the other hand, from where I sit, the idea that the church has outsized influence on the culture's sexual practices is downright alien.

Thanks.  

Yeah, to be honest, i have no arguments that churches are hardly having huge impacts on the culture of Seattle (or many places for that matter).  

Was just commenting on many of those i know, and my own interaction with the pressure-cooker infusion method of moral norms.  Most of those norms i agree with (and even those i don't - i have no right to demand anything) - it's just the method i hope will change.

Honestly, it's not an easy line the mormon church treads.  For the pressure-cooker to go away, i think they'd have to acknowledge that much of what they advocate  isn't as important as they've said it is.  And concessions like these aren't easy to make without undermining your own authority.

Though i really believe you can convey the importance of something in an effective way that doesn't plant landmines of shame and guilt that detonate and destroy the person's sense of self-worth when they touch it a few years down the road.  And i think this has been a huge factor in the suicides (quick and brutally tragic or long and drawn out and equally tragic) or self-harmful behavior that i have seen.  

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On 8/4/2018 at 8:00 PM, MormonHub said:

There is something strange going on in Utah. The State finds itself on two different top-ten lists that you may have seen or heard about. According to the latest Gallup poll, Utah is one of the 10 happiest states in the country. This is a greatly reassuring statistic to hear if you happen to live in the Beehive State. However there is another top 10 list Utah places on that is a little more alarming — suicide (heatmap of US). According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), the specific demographic most at risk of suicide nationwide are teenagers. It is the 2nd leading cause of death for anyone between the ages of 10 and 20, the first being accidents. And according to a CDC investigation in Utah, there has been a "141.3% increase in suicides among Utah youth aged 10-17 from 2011 to 2015, compared to an increase of 23.5% nationally (UDOH)." This statistic is beyond alarming. When I look at these numbers, I am deeply disturbed. And I...

View the full article

 

I haven't read the article yet but I would like to refer to a study mentioned in the book 'Transformed By The Light; by Melvin Morse M. D.......

(at least I am almost certain it was in his book)....... He said that a group of people who had recently attempted suicide were simply given

near death experience accounts to read........

zero people from that group attempted suicide again during the duration of the study.  From that promising start he was wondering if

NDE accounts had potential as one important part of therapy for suicide prevention.  

Another professional that I corresponded with agreed with the basic theory... .but stressed that it is important to not give people only the positive NDE accounts..... but to allow people to know that there are negative ones as well.  

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/george-ritchie.html#a05b

Quote

 

The following is the testimony of George Ritchie's tour of the Earthbound Realm: Then Jesus begins to take Ritchie on a journey through various realms of the afterlife. They fly toward a large city on Earth where they notice a group of assembly-line workers at work. They witnesses the spirit of a woman trying desperately to grab a cigarette from the workers who were oblivious to her presence. This woman had died severely addicted to cigarettes and was now cut off from the one thing she desperately desired most.

 

Ritchie realizes how the spirits in these realms immediately know the thoughts of other spirits around them. This is the reason they tend to group together with other spirits. It is too threatening to be around others who knew and disagreed with their thoughts.

 

Jesus leads Ritchie to a house somewhere on Earth where he is shown the spirit of a young man following his living family members around and begging them for forgiveness. But the family members are completely unaware of his presence. Jesus tells Ritchie the young man committed suicide and is "chained to every consequence of his act."

 

They then traveled to a bar somewhere on Earth which was filled with sailors drinking heavily. Spirits surrounded the sailors as they tried desperately, and in vain, to grasp the shot glasses to get a drink. Other spirits tried to control the sailors' alcoholic behavior. Ritchie learns these are the spirits of people who died still having a severe alcoholic addiction which went beyond the physical. He is bewildered as he observes one of the sailors passing out causing the sailor's protective aura surrounding him to crack open. When it does, it allows a spirit to scramble into the sailor's unconscious body. This scene was repeated over and over.

 

 

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I read The Miracle of MSM by Stanley Jacobs M. D. back in 1999 and I would recommend researching it further.

Every word that he wrote about nutritional sulphur has been proven true to myself and everybody that I got onto this low cost 

relatively natural substance that is available everywhere.  Veterinarians were using it for a century and it was approved for human back in 1997.

I actually purchase my favourite version of it from an animal feed store because it is the best powered version that I have found so far. 

 

I have the impression that this webpage is probably a summary of his book:

http://www.msm-info.com/#Stress

Quote

 

Stress

Many people using MSM have reported feeling better and stronger and capable of increased endurance. During a test with 14 persons using MSM for periods from seven months to over one year, none of them became ill (3). One stress study involved two groups of 25 goldfish, which were removed from a large aquarium and placed in two identical, small aquariums. One group was fed ordinary goldfish food, and the other group received the same food with 2% by weight of MSM added. Movement confinement, temperature changes and marginal oxygenation stressed the fish in both aquariums equally. After five days, only one fish of the MSM group had died, against 11 (almost 50%) of the control group (3).

 

 

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You can't blame the Church for the actions of the world, nor can you expect the Church to change to suit them.  That's what I see the issue is.  The Church hasn't changed, the world has.  Odd that everyone likes to blame the Church.

For generations, the Church has taught God's law and the path to salvation and happiness while the world has slowly slipped.  Now, the world points it's finger at the church and says it's OUR fault that kids feel bad and kill themselves.  No, I'm following Christ.  The world is telling the kids it's OK to sin.  No wonder they're confused and pained.  

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The author (and readers) may be interested in what I consider a larger issue than the Church and sexual orientation issues--that of disrespect for President Donald J. Trump.  Some call it "Trump Derangement Syndrome" which seems to be rather high in Utah. President Trump is not a candidate, so this comment isn't violating rules of discussion.

 

As a new member of the discussion group, I read very carefully the terms of discussion and would not bring politics into this thread, except for the very importance of this factor. Imagine, for a moment, the effect on a teen to have parents, teachers, and associates hating Trump for his negotiating Tweets and questions about his stellar character. A sense of doom isn't limited to teens in Utah. (And as a humorous aside, conservative-talk-radio hosts say that the successes every day of President Trump are driving Liberal-Progressive-Dims "crazy".  Yes, that is what they/we are saying. Part of the proof for that is that instead of speaking to issues, they continue to pour on hatred against Trump.))  A sense of the approaching Armageddon and America going over the cliff could be a major factor in the life of a teen in Utah. Where is the optimism in that?

 

In summary, add 'Politics' to the complexity mix. 

 

Thanks for a great article and thanks for a great thread of discussion.  I would suggest there may be a spell-check error in the terms of discussion.  "Political Neutrality Policy: More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules."   {[(should it read, 'as long as' ?? Just asking.)]}

 

Also, as a statistician, I want to point out the distinct separation between demographics of Utah teens.  I appreciate the author's clarification of causation and correlation. 

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54 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You can't blame the Church for the actions of the world, nor can you expect the Church to change to suit them.  That's what I see the issue is.  The Church hasn't changed, the world has.  Odd that everyone likes to blame the Church.

For generations, the Church has taught God's law and the path to salvation and happiness while the world has slowly slipped.  Now, the world points it's finger at the church and says it's OUR fault that kids feel bad and kill themselves.  No, I'm following Christ.  The world is telling the kids it's OK to sin.  No wonder they're confused and pained.  

No church is one hundred percent perfect.......

from what I read in 'Transformed By The Light' by Melvin Morse M. D. I personally would have expected that Utah would have had one of the LOWEST 

rates of suicide of any USA  State or Canadian province..... so that article is surprising........

 

So I have a suggestion..........

...... .how about organizing a tour of several Utah cities by Rabbi Alon Anava who had a quite negative near death experience.........

to see if his tour can reduce the tendency for Utah's young people to take their own lives?!

I am sorry if my advice is unwise.... but I have listened to his NDE account four or five times already........

and I am truly impressed by his honesty...... his humility.... his zeal........

I am kind of wondering if listening to him could be a great remedy for the Ephesian Complex.... .losing our first love??????

This could be done in conjunction with all Jewish synagogues in Utah..... and Orthodox Jews could be given 

first chance at the best seats in the auditoriums......

https://www.alonanava.com/

 

 

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Nobody believes the Church is perfect.  God is, though, and through Christ we return to Him.  Period.

My old church..... The Worldwide Church of God....... came up with doctrines that over fifty years 

came terribly close to Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

For a church that only began in 1934..... that was  a pretty serious example of rapid degeneration......

Strangely enough though... I am glad that I was brought out of Atheism by Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong......

he had a lot of good ideas.........

In my opinion..... because you Latter Day Saints have the most open mind toward near death experience accounts.......

you are all set up to conquer the world metaphorically........ and maybe even literally.......

The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.

1Kings 18:21

And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

I began to study these experiences a great deal back in 1990. They immediately made me realize that the "soul sleep" doctrine that I had been taught was almost certainly in error. I got kicked out of two churches due to disagreements mainly over that doctrine. But as a Christian there was no way that I could deny the possibility of people having an "out of the body experience!"

2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

But I know that many Christians struggle with these accounts..... partly because they are offended that people are shown going to heaven who have not "accepted Yeshua - Jesus" in quite the same manner that they did?!?!

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html

Howard Storm:

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. ...."These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."
... 
I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart...."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)

Here is the verse that causes many Christians to reject NDE accounts as a deception from the dark side of the force.

Acts 4:12

Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
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Could Utah be one of the fist USA States to reduce the suicide rate there by

perhaps fifty percent or more within two to five years?

I have some ideas on that.....   but I think that they might fit best in another forum here?

This looks like a job for The White Horse First Lady:

 

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1 hour ago, Charles Edwin Shipp said:

The author (and readers) may be interested in what I consider a larger issue than the Church and sexual orientation issues--that of disrespect for President Donald J. Trump.  Some call it "Trump Derangement Syndrome" which seems to be rather high in Utah. President Trump is not a candidate, so this comment isn't violating rules of discussion.

 

As a new member of the discussion group, I read very carefully the terms of discussion and would not bring politics into this thread, except for the very importance of this factor. Imagine, for a moment, the effect on a teen to have parents, teachers, and associates hating Trump for his negotiating Tweets and questions about his stellar character. A sense of doom isn't limited to teens in Utah. (And as a humorous aside, conservative-talk-radio hosts say that the successes every day of President Trump are driving Liberal-Progressive-Dims "crazy".  Yes, that is what they/we are saying. Part of the proof for that is that instead of speaking to issues, they continue to pour on hatred against Trump.))  A sense of the approaching Armageddon and America going over the cliff could be a major factor in the life of a teen in Utah. Where is the optimism in that?

 

In summary, add 'Politics' to the complexity mix. 

 

Thanks for a great article and thanks for a great thread of discussion.  I would suggest there may be a spell-check error in the terms of discussion.  "Political Neutrality Policy: More Good Foundation, as a nonprofit foundation, must remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. The foundation encourages its members and staff to be informed about political issues and to be engaged in civic life; however, it does not endorse or oppose any political parties, candidates, or platforms. Mormon Hub will allow political discussion, also long as all posts remain neutral with respect to partisan politics and candidate campaigns for public office. You may not use the site to show support, endorse, oppose or sanction any candidate. In addition, all posts must be respectful and sensitive to readers of all political beliefs and backgrounds. Any post that violates any of the above conditions will be dealt with according to the consequences of breaking the rules."   {[(should it read, 'as long as' ?? Just asking.)]}

 

Also, as a statistician, I want to point out the distinct separation between demographics of Utah teens.  I appreciate the author's clarification of causation and correlation. 

We are currently allowing political discussion.  As long as the MoreGood Foundation as a non profit organization doesn't take sides etc. we're okay.  

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[email protected] we are talking about suicide right? We are talking about pain and mental illness do you not read that do you not see that? Immediately you blame

the person who is obviously struggling (me) for what can I give back to the church. How can I make myself happier, why does the church have such a high rate of

suicide?  Nothing clicked, that's why people commit suicide because there is NO ONE HOME. You are blaming the suffering person who is stuck by saying its you, you are not doing enough, you are not working hard enough, not trying enough NOT< NOT NOT.

If anyone is in pain or thinking about suicide just show up, listen and keep the blame and perfect judgements to yourself. Sadly you are clueless.

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6 hours ago, Grunt said:

You can't blame the Church for the actions of the world, nor can you expect the Church to change to suit them.  That's what I see the issue is.  The Church hasn't changed, the world has.  Odd that everyone likes to blame the Church.

For generations, the Church has taught God's law and the path to salvation and happiness while the world has slowly slipped.  Now, the world points it's finger at the church and says it's OUR fault that kids feel bad and kill themselves.  No, I'm following Christ.  The world is telling the kids it's OK to sin.  No wonder they're confused and pained.  

What is true for LDS is likely true for all of us from more conservative faith communities, with rigorous observance. We are counter-culture. So, it could well be that our young people, who used to look at "the world," and wonder a bit, now see stark contrast. Those who leave us used to come back when they started families. This generation is not doing so. The distance traveled culturally is now so much greater.

So, why the spike in suicide? Perhaps the plunge from faithful to unfaithful is faster and harder than in the past. Guilt and shame at "falling away," or, for those who embrace their new lives, bitterness over the church having held them back for so long, drives some to depression, and a few to suicide.

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5 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

What is true for LDS is likely true for all of us from more conservative faith communities, with rigorous observance. We are counter-culture. So, it could well be that our young people, who used to look at "the world," and wonder a bit, now see stark contrast. Those who leave us used to come back when they started families. This generation is not doing so. The distance traveled culturally is now so much greater.

So, why the spike in suicide? Perhaps the plunge from faithful to unfaithful is faster and harder than in the past. Guilt and shame at "falling away," or, for those who embrace their new lives, bitterness over the church having held them back for so long, drives some to depression, and a few to suicide.

I'm not sure.  It very well could be a combination of all that.    There is also an association between elevation and suicide.   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3114154/

I'm not an expert by any stretch.  People choose an association that they desire to be correct because it fits their narrative, but do we really know?  How many active members commit suicide compared to those that left?

I don't see how to avoid it.

Edited by Grunt
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3 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

deleted.

I hoped I had "deleted" my post prior to you viewing it. It appears I was not fast enough. Thanks to another member and seeing your rapid fire posting this morning trying to throw the Church under the bus at every point possible, I then realized you are most likely dealing with bigger mental health issues. I decided to retract my post in light of your potential mental illness.

3 hours ago, inquisitive said:

[email protected] we are talking about suicide right? Sadly you are clueless.

After this post, I will not engage you further as I don't want to perpetuate your paranoia even further than it is. Please seek out some professional help. Good luck.

Edited by NeedleinA
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5 hours ago, xpluto said:

I am wondering what will happen in afterlife to those who commit suicide ? I looked for scriptures and didn't found any.

I think Heavenly Father will be so loving and just and will know what was in their heart when they took the action they did.  I think they will be judged on that and fairly.  I don't think you can just have a black and white set of rules of what will happen.

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5 hours ago, xpluto said:

I am wondering what will happen in afterlife to those who commit suicide ? I looked for scriptures and didn't found any.

I've heard people speak with certainty, offering blanket condemnation. It sounded harsh, and Mathew's warning about judging not came to mind.

I've heard people speak with certainty, offering blanket forgiveness (usually be assigning mental illness as the cause). It sounded like the paramedic who tells a trauma victim, "You're fine, it's going to be okay." They hope so, and they believe the injured needs to hear this, but they really don't know. @pam is spot on. The Lord knows us, and His mercy will cover any who will to be covered. Further, God can find that willingness even when we may think it impossible.

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