what authority does the church have to disipline a member?


Recommended Posts

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member. It made my stomach sink into a dark place like what the .......?

Reading about how to take your names off the LDS official registry, and what that entails I read that the church no longer has the authority to......and I saw the word discipline. No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about.

And then came some odd things in my life when i tried to leave. Not going to go on about it here, its the wrong venue. My question are real, i am in a very bad place. Spiritually, emotionally with trust issues and feeling very blindsided.

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell.

Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done.

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member. It made my stomach sink into a dark place like what the .......?

Reading about how to take your names off the LDS official registry, and what that entails I read that the church no longer has the authority to......and I saw the word discipline. No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about.

And then came some odd things in my life when i tried to leave. Not going to go on about it here, its the wrong venue. My question are real, i am in a very bad place. Spiritually, emotionally with trust issues and feeling very blindsided.

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell.

Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done.

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for?

The Authority of the church comes from two places... (Possibly only one depending on what you believe)

If you believe that it is the True Church and God's Church then the authority naturally flows from God...  This is the only way the Church might possibly have any kind of influence on the eternities.  For those that do not believe the church is true then the only logical and consistent point is that the church has no heavenly power.

The second place the Authority comes from is the authority any group has over its membership.  Membership is a privilege that is extended to individuals.  Should such individual engage in behaviors or actions contrariety to what the group/organization desires, said group/organization can reduce/remove the privileges it extended.  This can be up to and including membership in the organization.  This is not just an LDS thing or a Church thing, but it can be any kind of group thing.

When you became member you were asked what you believed to be true (Christ, Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, LDS Church, etc.) and if you were willing follow the direction the church gives (Law of Chasity, Word of Wisdom, Tithing, and generally trying to live like Christ).   Church discipline can be triggered when you choose not to follow any more.  (for what ever reason).

Discipline wise the church can only revoke the privileges it extended to you.  If you believe it extended Heavily blessing, it can revoke those.  Otherwise it is just worldly privileges of membership.

This is not a separation of Church vs State issue because the church is not government and has no power over your life, liberty or property.  But do not mistake.  You have no right to church membership, Church help, Church association, or Church resources.  Those are all privileges that the Church can bestow and remove as it sees fit.  (like any other organization) Your liberty does not give you the right to force yourself on the church its members or its resources. (Aka you have the right to swing your fists (aka liberty) right up until it would hit someone else nose) 

 

Edited by estradling75
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life?

Only to determine whether a person:

1) Should partake of the sacrament (though I don't see how anyone could physically stop you even if you were instructed not to)

2) Hold a temple recommend / participate in temple ordinances

3) Serve in callings or say prayers in church meetings

4) Receive / advance in the priesthood (for men)

...the end.

20 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

No.  The two have nothing to do with each other.  You seem to believe otherwise (based on posts elsewhere in this forum), but you're wrong.  Beyond the fact that all churches have to register as such with the government in order to be tax-exempt (or perhaps for other reasons in various countries), the two are still entirely distinct.

22 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

It is to have your name removed from Church records and your priesthood authority (for men) and temple blessings revoked.  It is, in one sense, to make you a non-member.

31 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell. 

Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done.

Whatever "silent treatment" or alienation you feel, it is either imagined, caused by differing expectations (yours vs. your ward members), or localized (there are some awful people in your ward), or whatever I'm not thinking of.  It isn't something I would call a normal experience.  And no, it would not be part of official Church discipline (see the first answer I posted).  Church discipline is about helping the sinner to bring their life into alignment with the teachings of Christ and not making matters worse by unworthily participating in sacred ordinances.  It isn't about punishment, it isn't public, and it certainly doesn't include ignoring a member.

36 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for? 

"untie yourself from the lamb's book of life"?  I suggest studying the scriptures regarding the book of life.

"list of names"? Moroni 6:4  - essentially.

Doomed to hell?  Again, I recommend you study the scriptures and do your best to follow them and the Spirit to the best of your ability and understanding.  In Mormon theology, one has to try pretty hard to earn a permanent place in hell.

And now, I'm going to be blunt.  There's whopping tons of anger in a lot of your posts.  This is harming you (and only you) immensely.  For your own sake, figure out how to let it go, regardless of whether it's justified.  There are several things in your posts which sound bizarre - like no experience I've ever had in the Church and like nothing I've heard from others.  Others just sound bizarre or incomprehensible, regardless of Church or no church - to the point where I wonder if English is your native language and/or whether you come from a country other than the US (in other words, I'm looking for a way to explain why much of the content of your posts is incomprehensible to me).  My conclusion, considering the whole of it, is that it seems like you need the help of a professional counselor / therapist / psychologist / psychiatrist - something along those lines.  I don't think this forum or even your fellow ward members (even without the problems you've described in posts to these forums) could help with everything you appear to need.  (I could be all wrong.  All I know is what I've read here, and there's no guarantee I'm understanding correctly - and as I've said, there's a lot in your posts that I just plain don't understand.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here’s a non-LDS discussion of w communication as a biblical concept:  https://www.gotquestions.org/excommunication.html

Mormon scriptures that establish the Church’s authority to remove those who seek to undermine its aims include Mosiah 26 in the Book of Mormon, and D&C 42.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member. It made my stomach sink into a dark place like what the .......?

Reading about how to take your names off the LDS official registry, and what that entails I read that the church no longer has the authority to......and I saw the word discipline. No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about.

And then came some odd things in my life when i tried to leave. Not going to go on about it here, its the wrong venue. My question are real, i am in a very bad place. Spiritually, emotionally with trust issues and feeling very blindsided.

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell.

Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done.

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for?

This church is NOT just a place where you am come and become a better person, any church can do that. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Kingdom of God upon the earth. President Nelson is the prophet and he speaks on behalf of God. So you ask what authority does the church have?

The church has the same authority God has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For starters: *hugs* I'm sorry you're going through such a bad time.

Now on to your questions (I hope you don't mind if I address them in a different order)--

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about.

It is.  When a person is baptized, they make a promise with the Lord: taking upon His name and promising to always remember Him, and serve Him as our Lord and Savior.  God further embraces that person, washing away sins and always being with that person.  Being baptized isn't just casually signing up for a social club (though we do indeed socialize :) ).

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

A baptized person still have their agency: they don't *have* always remember Christ.  "Bob" could go out and murder his wife in cold blood (for example).  Obviously this doesn't happen but rarely, and it is still a possibility.  In which case, Bob has shattered his promise with the Lord.  He is in an extremely dark place, and needs a lot of spiritual help (currently his shattered promises only serve as a testimony against him).  His Bishop (and further up his Stake President) are charged with providing that help.  So they meet with Bob, and decide the best course of action.  

There are a number of options, the most drastic move being completely washing away the shatter promise, and having the chance to start anew.  This dissolving the shattered covenant and giving the chance to restart is known as "excommunication".   Bob is still welcomed at church -- in fact heavily encouraged to attend and meet with the Bishop regularly.  He's still welcome to fold his arms joining in prayer, attending classes, etc.  

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind?

There is no 'ghosting' or shunning involved, no big announcement of "he's been excommunicated!"-- in fact most commonly the only folks who know will be the Bishop and other people directly helping you here.   All people (those who know and the vast majority who don't) still talk to you, still pray with you, still minister to you, still visit, etc.  The big goal here is to get that restart, and re-enter the waters of baptism as with a re-born heart.  

 

Now: what are some horrible actions can constitute such horrible shattering of covenants as to *possibly* look at a complete re-boot of covenants?  (Note: 'possibly' is a big word here, this is all to be decided individually with that person)--

-Murder.

-Rape.  

-Unrepentant adultery.  

-Abuse of a family member.  

-Gross preaching of anti-Christ doctrine.  

-Gross criminal activity (the multi-felonony type).  

You see, they are huge sins.  They aren't minor things or something vast vast majority of us will ever consider doing.  The washing away shattered covenants is to have a chance to start anew.  

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell.

Disagreeing with a theological point is not on the above list and in no way a huge shattering of your promises to God.  In fact vast majority of the time it's not an offense at all, just something to talk and pray about.

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

When a person violates the land's law, they are subject to the land's punishment.  Most of the above things are also major legal crimes and the legal punishment will be issues by a court of law, which the church has nothing to do with.  If that person has also made promises to God, that is dealt with completely separately that the legal investigation and court.

 

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? 

Roll call isn't remotely important here.  What's important are the promises each of us make with God.

1 hour ago, inquisitive said:

 Am I doomed to hell if i leave?

No.  You'll also see "ditching church" is not remotely on the above list.  And even if a person is excommunicated for like serial adultery, that is in no way "you're doomed to Hell", rather, "hey let's try forging these promises again".    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First @JaneDoe thank you for the cyber hug and the sensitivity. That was a second I did get some other loving soul reach out the other night. I had no idea the stake Pres who

I did meet with and fell asleep while we were talking, (true story) he just flew in from, whatever........

Thank you for answering my questions but the ghosting is indeed going on but it is what it is. It tells me more about the need of one person to control then being a spiritual sister.

If I knew the policies and the paramilitary like structure I would have known its not something I can do or want to do. Constantly being punished and judged. I know what's going on

its ok no need to put it on here the church watches and reports everything to protect an image its fine.

Thanks again, we can be two different people in the same church and see the world so totally different.

Peace and love,

Inquisitive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

Thank you for answering my questions but the ghosting is indeed going on but it is what it is.

@inquisitive, if you were having church discipline of some type going on, you would know such (it's a formal meeting with the Bishop, formally telling you, etc).  Did you have such a meeting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple of people have told me that they experienced church discipline, I assume that they were disfellowshipped. If they had not told me, I would not have known. No one other than those who need to know, has this information. If there is some ghosting...can’t imagine how this would work?, then there is something odd going on...

So odd situations that I have encountered...a man with some mental issues, started to call me and leave phone messages while he was suffering from cocaine use. He called me because I had a stake calling and he referred to the stake calling. He described serious law infringement issues on his phone messages. I reported these issues to my bishop and I did not return the phone calls. This situation is the only form of ‘ghosting’ that I have ever heard of and I have been around for a while and held a lot of callings.

I think that you should make an appointment to talk to your bishop and consider counseling.

Edited by Sunday21
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is one of the sources of the church's authority to discipline people. As JAG has pointed out, there are also other sources

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 134:10)

10  We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world's goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them.  They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator

Just by joining the church you give them the authority to discipline you when it comes to the church. They can't do anything in your secular life, but they do have every right to punish you if the religious realm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/13/2018 at 7:36 AM, inquisitive said:

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

Friend, you obviously have no clue what the separation of church and state even means. It becomes difficult to carry on a conversation when very obvious things are treated as a complete surprise, such as the idea that a private organization has the inherent power to include or exclude people. If someone can't figure this out, where do you even begin trying to hold a conversation with them?

11 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Just by joining the church you give them the authority to discipline you when it comes to the church. They can't do anything in your secular life, but they do have every right to punish you if the religious realm.

At a previous point in my life, I would not have believed that such a statement would ever be necessary. It's like saying, "Look at that blue thing over there. See it? It's BLUE." But apparently there are in fact people who need to be told that something that is blue is indeed blue.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disciplinary meetings, disfellowship, and excommunion are necessary for our spiritual growth, when we have done very stupid/wrong things. After we've done stupid stuff,  what can help us get closer to the Savior's atoning power is getting all those privileges taken from us.

Our life here on Earth is a test, is a test of faith and obedience, where we get to taste sweet and sour. Life is not easy, and yes, sometimes it is require for us to go, in a very small percentage, through gethsemane. The Savior already experience our heartaches, and paid the price for our sins, and the only thing require from us is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. By doing that, we will be able to comprehend things, we will be able to understand that those men, yes, human men, are priesthood holder, and are acting as if the Lord was there judging us, because they only desire for us to be happy, to truly feel joy again.

Sinning does not bring joy, and by reaching out for help, and talking to our bishops and stake presidents, and going through whatever church disciplinary meeting we have to, it WILL bring joy to our lives again, after going through hell for a little bit.  Isn't one minute of pain worth a lifetime of glory?

The Gospel is true. What is asked of us by the Savior is a broken heart and a contrite spirit, how are you planning on obtaining that to offer to the Lord? yes, sometimes is does require for us to feel ashamed, to feel broken, to feel alone, BECAUSE that's when the wonderful power of the atonement takes place in our lives, and it changes us forever, and then that broken heart and contrite spirit are ready to be offer as a sacrifice.

 

 

 

Edited by Chilean
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I know, the church can simply release you from your covenants.  They do not shun, or disallow people from attending church (unless there is some legal action underlying that), but basically, if you sin to an extent that your covenants burden you with greater accountability to those sins, the accountability via covenant is broken, and you no longer carry that burden. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, bytebear said:

As far as I know, the church can simply release you from your covenants...if you sin to an extent that your covenants burden you with greater accountability to those sins, the accountability via covenant is broken, and you no longer carry that burden. 

That's one way of looking at it. Another way is that you lose the protection of your covenants and are left open to whatever comes naturally, without the divine protection you would otherwise have had. I think the latter view is probably more accurate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chelian not it makes sense.  Well no it doesn't but this is crazy. No wonder people feel lke they are in hell. All these are things that a convert should be told.

Its an over reach, its emotionally destructive, its man playing God and its a blindside when the person was never told that the church had the right to do this.

This is so wrong, its almost criminal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, inquisitive said:

Chelian not it makes sense.  Well no it doesn't but this is crazy. No wonder people feel lke they are in hell. All these are things that a convert should be told.

Its an over reach, its emotionally destructive, its man playing God and its a blindside when the person was never told that the church had the right to do this.

This is so wrong, its almost criminal.

 

There's a reason we call people who are interested in converting into the LDS Church an INVESTIGATOR.  They are supposed to INVESTIGATE what they're signing up for.  Hopefully, you don't do this with any of your other contracts... "I'm applying for this job", "Okay, you're hired."... after a day, "You didn't tell me I have to stand for 8 hours!", after a week... "You didn't tell me I have to work for 2 weeks first before I get paid!"  Sorry, but, it is YOUR JOB to find out what you're getting into.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

Chelian not it makes sense.  Well no it doesn't but this is crazy. No wonder people feel lke they are in hell. All these are things that a convert should be told.

Its an over reach, its emotionally destructive, its man playing God and its a blindside when the person was never told that the church had the right to do this.

This is so wrong, its almost criminal.

 

It's not man playing God, it's man LISTENING to God.

Criminal?  You realize you can walk away at any time, right?  We won't lock you up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, inquisitive said:

Chelian not it makes sense.  Well no it doesn't but this is crazy. No wonder people feel lke they are in hell. All these are things that a convert should be told.

Its an over reach, its emotionally destructive, its man playing God and its a blindside when the person was never told that the church had the right to do this.

This is so wrong, its almost criminal.

 

*Time out* let's rewind a little here:

@inquisitive, when you were meeting with the missionaries, you guys talked about promises/covenants we make with the Lord, correct?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
42 minutes ago, Grunt said:

It's not man playing God, it's man LISTENING to God.

Criminal?  You realize you can walk away at any time, right?  We won't lock you up.

Yup, my thoughts totally. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/13/2018 at 9:36 AM, inquisitive said:

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member.

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

 

Here is the scripture that talks about the separation of Church and State and exactly what the Church is allowed to do:

D&C Section 134

Quote

10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

11 We believe that men should appeal to the civil law for redress of all wrongs and grievances, where personal abuse is inflicted or the right of property or character infringed, where such laws exist as will protect the same; but we believe that all men are justified in defending themselves, their friends, and property, and the government, from the unlawful assaults and encroachments of all persons in times of exigency, where immediate appeal cannot be made to the laws, and relief afforded.

Nothing hidden.  Plain as day.  We're advised to read and study all our scriptures every day.  Did you not follow that counsel?  Then you can't blame the Church for blindsiding you when we're always told to read our scriptures.  Very public.  Very available. 

And this is well within the rights of the Church without ever involving any state powers.

I don't know why you're complaining or accusing the Church of being dishonest.

On 8/13/2018 at 9:36 AM, inquisitive said:

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on.

Be Honest?  Let's see.

1) I'm going to guess someone gave you a set of scriptures.
2) We're always counseled to read, study, and ponder the scriptures every day.
3) They're published both in paper and online for anyone to read.
4) They have classes every Sunday that go over the scriptures sequentially.

How exactly have you been deceived?

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/18/2018 at 1:53 AM, anatess2 said:

There's a reason we call people who are interested in converting into the LDS Church an INVESTIGATOR.  They are supposed to INVESTIGATE what they're signing up for.  Hopefully, you don't do this with any of your other contracts... "I'm applying for this job", "Okay, you're hired."... after a day, "You didn't tell me I have to stand for 8 hours!", after a week... "You didn't tell me I have to work for 2 weeks first before I get paid!"  Sorry, but, it is YOUR JOB to find out what you're getting into.

 

I am an investigator and in defence of the OP I have been asked repeatedly by very nice, well meaning missionaries to be baptised, in what I believe is too short a time to agree to commit my life to a belief system that I don't know enough about yet.  When I expressed this to the missionaries they say 'as long as you know the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then you know enough to join".

I found this strange (and to be completely honest a bit unethical) so I asked the bishop at my local ward about it and he said it is normal practice and if I believe in the Book of Mormon and Jospeh Smith then I should be baptised ASAP.

While I will not be joining the church anytime soon, (I am the kind of person who wants to know everything before committing to something), I can completely understand how others do join very quickly, the missionaries DO ask you to join after only a couple of lessons.  

If the OP did in fact follow and trust in the missionaries to join the church after only a few weeks of investigating, it is completely understandable that they would not know enough about the church to know exactly what they are agreeing to join.  If this is the case you can't really put all the blame and responsibility on the OP when this is the standard practice of the church.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am an investigator and in defence of the OP I have been asked repeatedly by very nice, well meaning missionaries to be baptised, in what I believe is too short a time to agree to commit my life to a belief system that I don't know enough about yet.  When I expressed this to the missionaries they say 'as long as you know the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then you know enough to join".

I found this strange (and to be completely honest a bit unethical) so I asked the bishop at my local ward about it and he said it is normal practice and if I believe in the Book of Mormon and Jospeh Smith then I should be baptised ASAP.

While I will not be joining the church anytime soon, (I am the kind of person who wants to know everything before committing to something), I can completely understand how others do join very quickly, the missionaries DO ask you to join after only a couple of lessons.  

If the OP did in fact follow and trust in the missionaries to join the church after only a few weeks of investigating, it is completely understandable that they would not know enough about the church to know exactly what they are agreeing to join.  If this is the case you can't really put all the blame and responsibility on the OP when this is the standard practice of the church.

If you're the kind of person who likes to take their time, then that's what you do.  We can always hope for the best.

But it is not unethical to say what the missionaries said about prayer and faith to join.  It is NOT, however, a good practice for someone to put their faith in the words of men (even the missionaries) and just join because of that.  That is not correct either.

Experience has shown time and time again throughout history that mankind does not gain faith because of physical evidence and logic.  Wisdom also dictates that true faith is also not completely blind either.  Instead, faith in God and any religious truth is based on spiritual evidence.  In fact, Paul speaks of faith as "the evidence of things not seen".  It is evidence of a different kind.  It is evidence of things that physical means do not reveal much.

The thing that missionaries (and indeed most Mormons) try to get across is that the real way to tell if you're supposed to move forward with this is that God has told you to move forward.  And if you do indeed have that witness, then it really doesn't matter what "weird" things you come across or what things you might disagree with.  God told you to move forward.  God told you this is true.  Stick with God.  That's really all there is to it.

That is a terribly difficult road for too many people. They cannot trust in God's witness enough to overcome some things their physical senses tell them and the imaginings of man's logic lead them to believe.  So, then they doubt they heard God at all.  That's what causes people to fall away.  So, in any faith, any conversion, did God actually speak with that individual?  That's only between God and that individual.

I can say that God has guided me for much of my life.  And as long as I keep listening to his voice, I'm never led astray.  So far, he's had me stay with this faith.  Nothing is perfect but God and my wife.  But I've been mostly happy.  And for a depressive like me, that's pretty high praise.

Edited by Guest
Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am an investigator and in defence of the OP I have been asked repeatedly by very nice, well meaning missionaries to be baptised, in what I believe is too short a time to agree to commit my life to a belief system that I don't know enough about yet.  When I expressed this to the missionaries they say 'as long as you know the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then you know enough to join".

I found this strange (and to be completely honest a bit unethical) so I asked the bishop at my local ward about it and he said it is normal practice and if I believe in the Book of Mormon and Jospeh Smith then I should be baptised ASAP.

While I will not be joining the church anytime soon, (I am the kind of person who wants to know everything before committing to something), I can completely understand how others do join very quickly, the missionaries DO ask you to join after only a couple of lessons.  

If the OP did in fact follow and trust in the missionaries to join the church after only a few weeks of investigating, it is completely understandable that they would not know enough about the church to know exactly what they are agreeing to join.  If this is the case you can't really put all the blame and responsibility on the OP when this is the standard practice of the church.

@VelvetShadow, you take the time you need.  Yes missionaries can be totally impatient.  And yes, at a certain point a person does have to take a leap and experiment with faith (no one knows everything).   Listen to your heart, be honest with yourself & God about if you're taking learn and experiment (versus just stalling), and take what time you honestly need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share