what authority does the church have to disipline a member?


Recommended Posts

Guest MormonGator
Just now, Just_A_Guy said:

It’s been a while, but my fuzzy recollection is that my temple prep class outlined what the covenants would be—not verbatim, but it went over the underlying concept of each covenant.  Different strokes, I guess . . .

I also benefited from an aunt who was a temple worker; and she and her husband sat me down the night before and explained things in a more detailed way than you ordinarily hear (there are things we CAN’T talk about outside of the temple due to specific covenant, versus things we just DON’T LIKE to talk about outside of the temple due to an individual desire to keep things sacred).  I think that’s a good way to do things.

Right, and it's not an insult to the church or how they teach-it's just how a convert feels. I get it, they can't go into detail, I respect that. But for a convert who was not raised in the church from birth-it can seem like the church is hiding something. Again, for the second time-not an insult, just how it might seem to some converts. Not all. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I have faith in God, I have faith in Jesus, but asking me to have faith in a church that won't tell me whats going to happen a year after I join - thats something completely different 

See, this is where the relationship paradigm I talked about earlier comes in.  Ideally, before baptism you’ll get to a point where you hear and recognize the voice of Jesus (as you understand it via the Holy Spirit) telling you to go ahead and join the Church.  :) 

Edited by Just_A_Guy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, VelvetShadow said:

The first one yes, the second one I am not so sure, and it doesn't help that they keep the most important ceremonies a secret from me. I can't join a church that isn't upfront about all their beliefs/ceremonies.  I don't like that I feel like they are hiding things from me.

Again this is my opinion, this is my view on it and I have nothing against those who see it differently.

Ok, for the sake of this conversation let's ignore the fact that they don't make sacred things public, just as many organizations do.  If you believe the Book of Mormon is true, then you know Joseph Smith was the Prophet, obviously.  Correct?   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, MormonGator said:

Right, and it's not an insult to the church or how they teach-it's just how a convert feels. I get it, they can't go into detail, I respect that. But for a convert who was not raised in the church from birth-it can seem like the church is hiding something. Again, for the second time-not an insult, just how it might seem to some converts. Not all. 

That is exactly how I feel, and I mean no offence at all but it is how I feel, I don't feel comfortable joining a church that I feel is hiding things from me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Ok, for the sake of this conversation let's ignore the fact that they don't make sacred things public, just as many organizations do.  If you believe the Book of Mormon is true, then you know Joseph Smith was the Prophet, obviously.  Correct?   

I think the Book of Mormon is true, but I can not ignore the fact that the temple ceremonies are not revealed to me before being baptised.

There are a lot of groups that believe in the book of mormon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am not going to join a church with a 'general explanation' of what happens in the temple, the temple is so important so I need to know what exactly happens there before joining.

You can still receive enormous spiritual blessings and benefits from being baptised and keeping your baptismal covenants without going to the temple - it's just that you won't receive all the possible blessings on offer. Why don't you just take it in baby steps - one step at a time - and don't take the temple step until you feel you are ready. It seems a bit odd to be guided by the idea that you're not going to take one step, no matter how beneficial that one step may be, until you can see what that last step will be, which you don't have to take unless you want to and until you feel you are ready. If you are baptised and choose not to go to the temple, that is entirely your decision, but it may well be that after you have been baptised for a while, you really will want to go to the temple. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Vort said:

@VelvetShadow, we are not offended, so don't worry about that. But at the same time, we are trying to give you useful input and insights. If you just dismissively wave off everything we say, we can't do you much good. 

I feel like my opinion is being waved off as something I shouldn't worry about, when I worry greatly about it, this is my eternal soul we are talking about, this is a big deal to me.  

And I was just expressing my opinion, I wasn't looking for input or insights from anyone, I was just expressing my opinion.  It would be nice if that could just be acknowledged like @MormonGator did, he was very supportive and just acknowledged that my feelings were valid and understandable.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am not going to join a church with a 'general explanation' of what happens in the temple, the temple is so important so I need to know what exactly happens there before joining.

Then you won't join, which would be a shame. There is no accurate, approved way of obtaining the information you seek except for the way provided by the Lord -- that is, by going to the temple. I hope you reconsider.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

You can still receive enormous spiritual blessings and benefits from being baptised and keeping your baptismal covenants without going to the temple - it's just that you won't receive all the possible blessings on offer. Why don't you just take it in baby steps - one step at a time - and don't take the temple step until you feel you are ready. It seems a bit odd to be guided by the idea that you're not going to take one step, no matter how beneficial that one step may be, until you can see what that last step will be, which you don't have to take unless you want to and until you feel you are ready. If you are baptised and choose not to go to the temple, that is entirely your decision, but it may well be that after you have been baptised for a while, you really will want to go to the temple. 

Thats the sticking point for me though, I don't see the point of being baptised without planning to go to the temple and until I know what happens in the temple I can't in all good conscious be baptised.

Again this is how I feel, this is my opinion, I understand not everyone will feel like me but this is how I feel and this is what I am prompted to do by a lot of prayer and I'm not going to ignore what God is telling me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I think the Book of Mormon is true, but I can not ignore the fact that the temple ceremonies are not revealed to me before being baptised.

There are a lot of groups that believe in the book of mormon

Ahhhh.  Have you checked out those other groups?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest MormonGator
5 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

And I was just expressing my opinion, I wasn't looking for input or insights from anyone, I was just expressing my opinion.  It would be nice if that could just be acknowledged like @MormonGator did, he was very supportive and just acknowledged that my feelings were valid and understandable.  

Thank you my friend, very nice of you to say. Hope your religious journey brings you peace! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I feel like my opinion is being waved off as something I shouldn't worry about, when I worry greatly about it, this is my eternal soul we are talking about, this is a big deal to me.  

And I was just expressing my opinion, I wasn't looking for input or insights from anyone, I was just expressing my opinion.  It would be nice if that could just be acknowledged like @MormonGator did, he was very supportive and just acknowledged that my feelings were valid and understandable.  

I don't think anyone is waving off your opinion, we're just trying to help.  How is your eternal soul in jeopardy?  Worst case scenario, it goes like this:

1.  You know the Book of Mormon is true.

2.  Therefore, you know authority is needed for baptism.

3.  You get baptized.

4.  You go to the Temple and see the sacred ordinances.

5.  You think they are crazy and against the will of Christ.

6.  Therefore, the Church must NOT be true, which means it has no authority, which means you aren't baptized.

7.  You go find the next group that believes the Book of Mormon and investigate them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Thats the sticking point for me though, I don't see the point of being baptised without planning to go to the temple and until I know what happens in the temple I can't in all good conscious be baptised.

 

This is kind of like saying i don't want any of the blessings unless i can have all of the blessings and i don't want all of the blessings unless i first know what they are before they are offered to me. Does that make sense to you?

I know that when  investigating a new religion rationality study and logic are only part of the process and sometimes we might act on the basis of feelings and fear rather than good sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I don't think anyone is waving off your opinion, we're just trying to help.  How is your eternal soul in jeopardy?  Worst case scenario, it goes like this:

1.  You know the Book of Mormon is true.

2.  Therefore, you know authority is needed for baptism.

3.  You get baptized.

4.  You go to the Temple and see the sacred ordinances.

5.  You think they are crazy and against the will of Christ.

6.  Therefore, the Church must NOT be true, which means it has no authority, which means you aren't baptized.

7.  You go find the next group that believes the Book of Mormon and investigate them.

I never said my eternal soul was in jeopardy, but what church I place the trust in to guide me and help my eternal soul and where it ends up in the afterlife is very important to me, and joining a church that keeps things from its new members is a big problem for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

This is kind of like saying i don't want any of the blessings unless i can have all of the blessings and i don't want all of the blessings unless i first know what they are before they are offered to me. Does that make sense to you?

I know that when  investigating a new religion rationality study and logic are only part of the process and sometimes we might act on the basis of feelings and fear rather than good sense.

No its not, I don't see it like that at all.  For me this is very simple.

I'm saying I'm not going to make a life long decision when I don't have all the information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I feel like my opinion is being waved off as something I shouldn't worry about, when I worry greatly about it, this is my eternal soul we are talking about, this is a big deal to me.  

Your opinion is not being waved off, and your soul is precious to us too.  We cannot give you the details you seek - as has been explained, (a) we consider these things too sacred to be explained elsewhere, (b) we have not been authorized by God to do so, (c) we have made covenants which prevent some of it, (d) some of it could be like explaining trigonometry to someone who hasn't mastered algebra (note the could be).

But we can give you the way to come to a testimony1 without a person giving you an unauthorized blow-by-blow.  If you choose to reject these things without trying them, then of course it's not going to help you.  If you choose to reject the idea that this is even possible, then no one can help you.  But if you're willing to "plant and nurture the seed", it will grow.

Quote

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

1Before I received my own temple endowments I probably knew no more than you know now about the details of the temple ceremonies - quite possible less, depending on where you've researched and how much you've read.  I had a testimony of all the usual things members have testimonies of, and I believed the temple ordinances were true.  However, some people had said some things which bothered me, and so I prayed shortly before I was to be endowed, and received the most powerful answer to prayer I have ever received.  I knew, without knowing any details of the ceremony, that the ordinances were true and that there was nothing to worry about - and my knowledge was stronger than any sterile, detailed transcript could ever be, because it was born into my heart, mind, and soul by the Holy Spirit of God.  You too can have this.

Edited by zil
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I feel like my opinion is being waved off as something I shouldn't worry about, when I worry greatly about it, this is my eternal soul we are talking about, this is a big deal to me.  

And I was just expressing my opinion, I wasn't looking for input or insights from anyone, I was just expressing my opinion.  It would be nice if that could just be acknowledged like @MormonGator did, he was very supportive and just acknowledged that my feelings were valid and understandable.  

I get having questions 100%.  I TOTALLY here you there.  I held off on my own endowment for years for that reason.  You're not alone there.  I also sent you a PM telling you more of the story and offering a hand.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I feel like my opinion is being waved off as something I shouldn't worry about, when I worry greatly about it, this is my eternal soul we are talking about, this is a big deal to me.  

And I was just expressing my opinion, I wasn't looking for input or insights from anyone, I was just expressing my opinion.  It would be nice if that could just be acknowledged like @MormonGator did, he was very supportive and just acknowledged that my feelings were valid and understandable.  

@VelvetShadow, it appears there are a couple of things going on here, and that you have taken offense at what I have written to you. Allow me to assure you that you're not the first (or even the second) to take offense at my words when I didn't intend them to be offensive, and to examine the conversation and try to tease out a few things that might be relevant.

First, you have offered your opinion. That's fine. But in many cases, opinions can be wrong. If you have the opinion that fried chicken is the most bestest food in the whole wide world EVAR, then I don't think that's an opinion that can really be challenged. Your opinion in that pretty much stands on its own, unassailable, until you change your mind. But if you have the opinion that, for example, the moon is made out of fried chicken, that's an opinion that can be objectively challenged and examined. On a discussion list such as this one, all such opinions are fodder for analysis.

Your opinion is that the Church should tell members exactly what goes on in the temple before they go. Fine, that's your opinion. I acknowledge it as such. But it's also wrong. Temple ordinances are offered only by the grace of God, and only in the way he has allowed us. That does not include telling everyone all about the temple ceremonies before they go. That's not God's way.

Can you find out? Sure. There are any number of ex-Mormons and anti-Mormons who will be only too happy to show you pirated copies of endowment presentations. But getting information in that way is much worse than not getting information at all. It pollutes you. It is equivalent to watching two strangers have sex before you get married so that you "know what you're getting into". That's simply not how it's done, or how it should be done, at any rate.

Second, you have encountered different personalities and different styles. @MormonGator is very much into empathy and commiseration, and as a result is very well-liked on this board. I can be empathetic and even commiserative if I try, but on a discussion list I normally try to, you know, discuss things. To me, that means analysis, and THAT means carefully reading people's words and then responding to the words' meaning as best I can. I'm not mean, and I don't dislike you. I'm just not MormonGator.

In the final analysis, MormonGator and myself and everyone else can commiserate with you all you want, but it will not change the fact that no covenant-keeping Saint will ever, ever, EVER give you what you say you're looking for. It Will Never Happen. Period. God offers his greatest blessings to all who will humble themselves and receive those blessings. Part of that humbling process is to do things the way the Lord and his kingdom say to do them.

As your brother in spirit and, hopefully, soon in the gospel, I urge you to reconsider your attitude in this thing.

Edited by Vort
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I never said my eternal soul was in jeopardy, but what church I place the trust in to guide me and help my eternal soul and where it ends up in the afterlife is very important to me, and joining a church that keeps things from its new members is a big problem for me.

I respect the importance that you are attaching to this decision and the process and effort you are putting into it. And i completely agree with you about how important it is. It really does have major eternal life changing implications. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I respect the importance that you are attaching to this decision and the process and effort you are putting into it. And i completely agree with you about how important it is. It really does have major eternal life changing implications. 

thank you for saying this, it means a lot to me. I do feel a bit attacked and misunderstood right now, and I am praying and this is what God is telling me - I need more information, so I can't ignore God now can I? so maybe seeing the videos of the temple ceremonies is a good idea, at least then I will know what I am signing up for

 

Edited by VelvetShadow
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

so maybe seeing the videos of the temple ceremonies is a good idea, at least then I will know what I am signing up for

Before you do that, please consider this question: What if it is true?  What if God has forbidden the recording and displaying of these things?  What if the people who made these recordings did so in the act of violating covenants?  Would God really instruct me to view something He has forbidden?  Could the Spirit be present for such a thing?  Would it be beneficial to my progress, or could it be that Satan would use it to deceive, or that in the absence of the Spirit, I would not feel any good thing and conclude from that that it's false - when I should conclude simply that the Spirit is not present because this thing is forbidden?

I'm only asking you to seriously consider these types of questions - you needed respond to them here.

Also, please ponder the scriptures linked here, and what they imply for your situation: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=line+upon+line&x=0&y=0

(sorry, gotta go now)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, zil said:

Before you do that, please consider this question: What if it is true?  What if God has forbidden the recording and displaying of these things?  What if the people who made these recordings did so in the act of violating covenants?  Would God really instruct me to view something He has forbidden?  Could the Spirit be present for such a thing?  Would it be beneficial to my progress, or could it be that Satan would use it to deceive, or that in the absence of the Spirit, I would not feel any good thing and conclude from that that it's false - when I should conclude simply that the Spirit is not present because this thing is forbidden?

I'm only asking you to seriously consider these types of questions - you needed respond to them here.

Also, please ponder the scriptures linked here, and what they imply for your situation: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?lang=eng&query=line+upon+line&x=0&y=0

(sorry, gotta go now)

Isn't everything forgiven at baptism? The way I see it there is no harm and I"m not breaking any covenants because I haven't made any.  It might not be a popular choice to you guys but to me it might just be the only way I can comfortably join the LDS church, and isn't that the most important thing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I never said my eternal soul was in jeopardy, but what church I place the trust in to guide me and help my eternal soul and where it ends up in the afterlife is very important to me, and joining a church that keeps things from its new members is a big problem for me.

Then I guess your only option is to get on your knees and ask Heavenly Father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share