what authority does the church have to disipline a member?


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14 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

I think the Book of Mormon is true, but I can not ignore the fact that the temple ceremonies are not revealed to me before being baptised.

There are a lot of groups that believe in the book of mormon

Then you're not ready to be baptized.  That's all there is to it.

When you receive confirmation from the Holy Ghost that the Church is true then you're going to be ready for baptism regardless of whether you know what's in the temple or not.  It would be silly to think that the Holy Ghost will tell you the Church is the True Church then tell you whoops, it's actually not when you go to the temple.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

Everything that happens in the temple is a physical action/symbolism/covenant talked about in the scriptures.  For example - a basic foundational principle of the Plan of Salvation in the restored gospel is Eternal Marriage.  Eternal Marriage can only be performed in the temple.  But the principle of Eternal Marriage is all over scripture and even in Gospel Principles class.  Another foundational principle is Baptism and Confirmation - can happen anywhere for those living but can only be performed in the temple for those who have died and have not had the opportunity while alive.  All these things are in scripture and even Gospel Principles.

That's why I said that the questions are simple - Do you believe the Church is true?  How you find out the answer is as complicated as how you make it.  A diligent, honest, and humble inquiry to God is the only way to know the answer.  Even knowing everything that happens in the temple is not going to answer that question.  Until the Holy Ghost confirms it to you, you're not ready to be baptized.

Edited by anatess2
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2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

3.  Then it's not a faith system for you; and while you may go through the motions of baptism, you'll never really blossom in the gospel.  

 

1 hour ago, Vort said:

An important consideration for any truthseeker.

 

6 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Spot. On.

 

blossom_1.jpg

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VelvetShadow I can understand your desire to learn about the church before making a full commitment and have taken your questioning as a demonstartion of the importance that this decision is to you.

If you want some of your questions answered I can recommend a great book The House of the Lord By James E. Talmage available on GoogleBooks:  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mX4zCgAAQBAJ  

I hope this answers some of your questions and helps you come to a decision.

 

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6 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

1.  You totally missed the point.  I'm saying don't be baptized if you aren't prepared to respect the belief system you'd be embracing and the community you'd be joining.

2.  Whatever knowledge he may appropriately have, he doesn't get by secretly recording his girlfriend.

3.  Then it's not a faith system for you; and while you may go through the motions of baptism, you'll never really blossom in the gospel.  

1. I need to fully understand what is involved in that community

2. he doesn't need to record anyone because the information is freely available to everyone, its not hidden or secret

3. you don't know whats in my heart, just because I want to know what I'm signing up for does not mean I am not sincere, in fact it is because of my sincerity that I want to know in the first place before I am baptised, if I do this its for life.

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5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Then you're not ready to be baptized.  That's all there is to it.

That's why I said that the questions are simple - Do you believe the Church is true?  How you find out the answer is as complicated as how you make it.  A diligent, honest, and humble inquiry to God is the only way to know the answer.  Even knowing everything that happens in the temple is not going to answer that question.  Until the Holy Ghost confirms it to you, you're not ready to be baptized.

The questions are not that simple for me, and I have had a prompting from God, after many nights of sincere prayer, to find out more information about the temple, I'm not going to ignore God.

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7 hours ago, askandanswer said:

@VelvetShadow here is a link to the teacher's manual for lesson one of the Temple Preparation class. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1?lang=eng

And here is the link to the whole manual, containing 7 lessons.

https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual?lang=eng

If you familiarise yourself with this material then you will be familiar with what is taught to members of the church preparing to go to the Temple.

You could also try the book that someone, maybe Just A Guy referred to you earlier - The Holy Temple, by Boyd K Packer, available from Deseret Books through this link

https://deseretbook.com/p/holy-temple-boyd-k-packer-4212?variant_id=106475-hardcover

The links on this page are likely to be helpful

https://www.lds.org/pages/the-holy-temple-2011-03?lang=eng

See also https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/10/prepare-for-the-blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng and https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/10/the-holy-temple?lang=eng

You have consistently said the prompting you have received is to get more information. You have also said a number of times that you wan't to know what you will be committing to before you make the commitments. I suggest to you that this might be two separate things. What the Lord is telling you - to get more information - seems to be different from what you want - to first know what the commitments are. It might be you who is saying you first want to know what the commitments are, and it might be the Spirit prompting you that you need more information. If this is the case I believe you will be better off following what the Lord wants, as revealed to you through the Spirit, that is, to get more information, rather than following your own desires - to first know what the commitments are. When it comes to getting more information, the links here provided you with an abundance of means to act on the promptings you have received. 

Thank you, this is great

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1 hour ago, KScience said:

VelvetShadow I can understand your desire to learn about the church before making a full commitment and have taken your questioning as a demonstartion of the importance that this decision is to you.

If you want some of your questions answered I can recommend a great book The House of the Lord By James E. Talmage available on GoogleBooks:  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mX4zCgAAQBAJ  

I hope this answers some of your questions and helps you come to a decision.

 

Thank you, I'll check it out

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7 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

The questions are not that simple for me, and I have had a prompting from God, after many nights of sincere prayer, to find out more information about the temple, I'm not going to ignore God.

I'm not sure if I'm saying things properly.  English is not my primary language and there may be something lost in translation.  But what you said here is exactly what I said.

The question is simple.  Finding the answer is as complex as you need for it to be complex.  God knows what you need.  Some people find the answer in a day.  I took a very difficult, very emotionally unsettling 3 years.  You take however long you need, whatever you need to get there.

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15 hours ago, person0 said:

@VelvetShadow,

If you read the Book of Abraham you could have approximately 50% understanding of what types of things you will learn / see in the temple.

Thank you, I'm definitely doing that, I've also found a series of videos on 'the pearl of great price' on BYU education channel on youtube, so between both those sources of information I should be on the right track! :)  No temple video watching, at least not until I have read and watched everything I can get my hands on put out by or supported by the church.

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3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I'm not sure if I'm saying things properly.  English is not my primary language and there may be something lost in translation.  But what you said here is exactly what I said.

The question is simple.  Finding the answer is as complex as you need for it to be complex.  God knows what you need.  Some people find the answer in a day.  I took a very difficult, very emotionally unsettling 3 years.  You take however long you need, whatever you need to get there.

3 years!  I feel better knowing that, thanks for sharing.  Sometimes I feel like I should just know, that it shouldn't be this difficult, that I shouldn't have all these questions, but I do have them and this is very serious for me, it is comforting to know if took you 3 years to come to your decision.

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1 hour ago, VelvetShadow said:

The questions are not that simple for me, and I have had a prompting from God, after many nights of sincere prayer, to find out more information about the temple, I'm not going to ignore God.

And you should not ignore God.  So lets talk sources... 

Every source is biased.  (Even God but we trust his biases).  Church sources will clearly be biased toward the Church, but they also have an inheritant limit to how far their biases can go.  That limit is in the Church members.  We study those materials, we go to the temple, and we are not afraid to call out things we see as wrong (Take for example multiple threads here were people call in to question things about the church).  Thus the Church sources have to withstand the review of active and faithful Church members.

Non-church sources will also be biased. Some (sadly not many) do a reasonably good job of trying understand and doing a neutral analysis.  Many others are those with axes to grind.  We call these (those with axes to grind) Antis and they range from bitter exes, to other churches that feel threatened, (or are just plain hostile to any group not them)

Now it should be very clear which sources are posting temple videos. 

The church will not (it has no need.  It invites everyone to see and partake through its process)

Those doing a good job understanding, trying to be neutral, and have integrity in their portrayals. Will also have the integrity and honesty that keeps them from getting any videos.

That leaves the dishonest and deceitful as the only group left to post Temple videos.  (because it is the only way to get them).  That means from the very beginning they are a tainted source.  Because knowing this, you have  to ask yourself, 'Just how dishonest and deceitful are they willing to be in their presentation?,' as well.

 

Edited by estradling75
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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The question is simple.  Finding the answer is as complex as you need for it to be complex.  God knows what you need.  Some people find the answer in a day.  I took a very difficult, very emotionally unsettling 3 years.  You take however long you need, whatever you need to get there.

I think this is very very well said.  For some people the answer is very simple and comes very quickly.  Others its a long road with long complications.  Still others its a long road to a simple answer.  We've all walked these paths to some degree-- and/or am walking one of them now.   Let us have patience with each other, wherever they may be on their walk.

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@VelvetShadow - You've said multiple times that you're not signing up for a lifetime commitment till you know everything. Well, people don't 'know everything' before getting married but they do it anyway. People don't 'know everything' before having kids but they do it anyway. People don't 'know everything' before embarking on a job/career but they do it anyway. Sometimes, you just have to act or you'll never move forward or get where you want to go. Just what came to my mind reading this thread. Hope you find the answers you seek (but not by unsavory means).

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11 hours ago, Manners Matter said:

@VelvetShadow - You've said multiple times that you're not signing up for a lifetime commitment till you know everything. Well, people don't 'know everything' before getting married but they do it anyway. People don't 'know everything' before having kids but they do it anyway. People don't 'know everything' before embarking on a job/career but they do it anyway. Sometimes, you just have to act or you'll never move forward or get where you want to go. Just what came to my mind reading this thread. Hope you find the answers you seek (but not by unsavory means).

Have to put this in context...

This is not to say you just go jump in blindly.  Rather, this is to say, you need to reach a point of "come what may".

For example in marriage... yes, you don't have to know everything about the person to marry them.  But, this is not saying you jump in blindly.  Rather, you get to a point in your relationship where you can face yourself in the mirror and honestly declare, "If I found out the day after our wedding that he is a serial killer, I would still love him and do everything in my power to bring him closer to Christ even if the only thing I can do is pray earnestly and desperately for his salvation while he spends a lifetime in jail." and "if some smashing guy 10 times better than the future husband in everything appears and declares undying love to me I can honestly look him in the eye and declare - you're a good guy and would make someone very happy, but I chose this guy over here for eternity."  Then you're ready for marriage.

 

Edited by anatess2
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@anatess2 Of course, it's not good to go into things blind but when someone is talking about viewing the temple ceremonies that have been secretly recorded and put out for the public, I take exception and needed to put that in context. To me, doing such a thing is similar to someone who wants to purchase something and finds out it's stolen goods but doesn't care about that fact. They just want what they want as if the means justifies the end. 

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One thing that's probably been brought up, how much can you trust a YouTube video?

 

I mean, is it even a real recording? The only people that could tell you if it's authentic by and large will likely refuse to even watch it.

 

Anybody that secretly recorded a temple ceremony, if it is in fact authentic, is involved in deceit already. How trustworthy is anything they put forth?

My personal thought is "yes you should follow your promptings to find out more, get baptized, live worthily and attend yourself!"

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35 minutes ago, jerome1232 said:

One thing that's probably been brought up, how much can you trust a YouTube video?

I mean, is it even a real recording? The only people that could tell you if it's authentic by and large will likely refuse to even watch it.

Anybody that secretly recorded a temple ceremony, if it is in fact authentic, is involved in deceit already. How trustworthy is anything they put forth?

Excellent point.  While we know there have been actual videos out there at times, who's to say there aren't false videos as well?  While a faithful, endowed member would know the difference, someone who was not endowed, or who had forgotten the endowment wouldn't (or might not) know that they were looking at a fake.  (And while it might seem improbable for people to put out fakes, I've heard enough other true stories about the extremes some people have gone to, to believe they might well do this if they thought they could pull it off.)

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On 8/13/2018 at 8:36 AM, inquisitive said:

Help me out here. I never even had a clue that the church had the right to discipline a member. It made my stomach sink into a dark place like what the .......?

Reading about how to take your names off the LDS official registry, and what that entails I read that the church no longer has the authority to......and I saw the word discipline. No one ever told me that I was signing up for anything other then LDS, baptism and trying to be a better person. That was what I thought conversion was all about.

And then came some odd things in my life when i tried to leave. Not going to go on about it here, its the wrong venue. My question are real, i am in a very bad place. Spiritually, emotionally with trust issues and feeling very blindsided.

What authority does the church actually have in a persons life? Isn't that over reaching the separation between church and state?

What exactly is excommunication and what does that mean?

WHAT is discipline and why if you have a disagreement with a member does the church ghost you and try and make you feel as the bible would say, separation from God is like being in hell.

Wait up, the church is a bldg, and we have bibles and BOM and GOD in our heart NO MATER where we go? What gives certain people in church the authority to "ghost" a person so they feel alniated and alone. is that silent treatment part of a discipline process and am I losing my mind? Who does this to a person? and yes its being done.

Please be honest and tell a convert what in LDS name is going on and how do you untie yourself from the lambs book of life and is it ever really possible? Why is it so important for the church to have a roll call official list of names? Am I doomed to hell if i leave? I am serious what is the churches rights vs mine and what did i sign up for?

it has the authority to act in the name of christ. as an organization it has to be able to maintain it's standards in some way or another and there must needs be a way to handle people who remain disobedient after request to change.

as it is not the government the most physical thing that they can do is seperate an individual from the rest of the church to varying degrees up to total seperation (ie excommunication)- this protects both parties. (and in a sense that's what sin does to us spiritually in regards to god) and gives time to an individual to repent.

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On 8/22/2018 at 6:48 PM, VelvetShadow said:

I think the Book of Mormon is true, but I can not ignore the fact that the temple ceremonies are not revealed to me before being baptised.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and believe that you're afraid that there is something sinister in the temple.   From the tone of your posts on this forum, I'd say that may be a fair question.

There is not.  It has nothing to do with being ashamed of what we do in the temple.  It is basically being given a security clearance.  You don't give those out to just anyone.  And you have to prove yourself for a while before people trust you with a higher level of security clearance.  That's why you aren't told all about it at the point of baptism.  That's pretty much it.

There are some "weird" things you may find simply because it is a culture.  You've been raised in a different culture.  And, truly, some members of the Church are so stuck in the culture of the world that it is "weird" for them as well.  But there will be nothing so different that you would not see by simply looking at cultures around the world and say, "Hmm.  That's interesting." Or possibly, "That's a bit odd.  Why..."

And that is a good question.  Why?  Why do we do many of the things we do in the temple.  And we're supposed to pray about them and study the scriptures to help us understand the whole ceremony.  Keep asking why.  But don't be too disappointed if the answer doesn't come to you as fast as Wikipedia.  The Lord answers in His own time and in His own way.

But the bottom line is that there is nothing sinister, nothing inappropriate, nothing that can't be done in public except that it is supposed to be kept private.

I know it is asking a lot to simply trust some strangers about that simple fact.  So, I'd ask if you know any active, practicing Mormons.  How do they behave?  How are they as people?  Their character?  Could you imagine them being perfectly ok with going to the temple every week and participating in the ceremonies then going back to work or school or whatever and behaving the way they do if there were indeed something sinister in the temple?

Edited by Guest
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9 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and believe that you're afraid that there is something sinister in the temple.   From the tone of your posts on this forum, I'd say that may be a fair question.

No sorry you're way off.  I don't think that at all, I just don't agree with the reasoning of 'get baptised' and then a year later find out what happens in the temple.  I think all the beliefs and ceremonies/ordinances of a faith should be up front and available to an investigator so they can make an informed choice before getting baptised.

I'm reading everything the church puts out about the temple that I can get my hands on but there is a lot they wont talk about because you promise in the temple not to talk about or reveal it so I can't really know.  That's my issue, nothing more.

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3 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

No sorry you're way off.  I don't think that at all, I just don't agree with the reasoning of 'get baptised' and then a year later find out what happens in the temple.  I think all the beliefs and ceremonies/ordinances of a faith should be up front and available to an investigator so they can make an informed choice before getting baptised.

I'm reading everything the church puts out about the temple that I can get my hands on but there is a lot they wont talk about because you promise in the temple not to talk about or reveal it so I can't really know.  That's my issue, nothing more.

Just curious.  What did you think of the rest of my explanation?

Another thing to consider: This time, I'm not trying to be flippant.  This is a serious analogy.

Is it required that you and your husband should have sex before you're married?  Why not?  Sex is a very important part of marriage.  Don't you want to know EVERYthing about your potential spouse?  Shouldn't you know what's under the hood?

***************EDIT********************

OK, I caught up a bit on this thread.  JAG essentially made a similar argument which you apparently rejected.  Although I don't really follow your logic with that.  If a man has been chaste as he should have been, he certainly won't know all about it by the time he gets married. His first time with his wife would indeed be very awkward, and many parts of the experience may be a bit unsettling.  (Ask me how I know). 

But as with any experience, you gain understanding by doing, not simply reading about it.  And this is doubly so with spiritual things.  The truth is that the entire ceremony would be meaningless to someone unprepared for it.  It would really be no different than watching a porn video to get some thrills.  To do so would cheapen the relationship with one's chosen mate.  Such behavior is entirely different than making love with the love of your life.  Similarly, seeking out the ceremony for academic inquiry cheapens the entire experience.

***************EDIT********************

So, there are some things you agree are to be experienced after the commitment, after your sign on, just as you don't know what your husband looked like naked before you were married (assuming you were chaste before marriage).  The level of sacredness of sex during marriage is the level of sacredness of the temple ordinances.  It is to be experienced AFTER the decision to commit.

If you don't understand that, then I'd encourage you to drop your investigation of the Church.  What if you were to look everything up and decide that everything is fine?  Would you really be able to then decide that you can, now, hold these things to be sacred when you just spent all this time treating it like a video from the discount rack?  How would you go about such a paradigm shift?  I don't think you would.  True, you could go through the motions of baptism and callings, and everything else for a year.  Then you could get your endowments.  But it would be too late.

You've already treated it like a simple play to be looked at for academic reasons only.  How can you come to understand the sacredness of it?  The waiting, the anticipation, the studying, the preparing, are all part of the experience.  And you will never be able to have that because you HAD to have it all NOW.

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On 9/3/2018 at 12:04 PM, Carborendum said:

You've already treated it like a simple play to be looked at for academic reasons only.  How can you come to understand the sacredness of it?  The waiting, the anticipation, the studying, the preparing, are all part of the experience.  And you will never be able to have that because you HAD to have it all NOW.

This is a very serious commitment, I just think I should be able to know 100% what I am getting into before getting into it.  I don't understand why you all find that so hard to acknowledge that it is perfectly normal for me to feel that way.

 

Edited by VelvetShadow
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On 9/3/2018 at 11:22 AM, Vort said:

It's touching to see a truthseaker blossom.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here but it is obvious that a few of you are making fun of me in some way, the other person made the same insult at me with the silly picture of the girl form the Big Bang theory.  I hope you all find yourself hilarious.  I find a lot of you acting very un-christian and to be honest quite mean.

I don't want to sign up for something if I don't know what I am signing up for.  Seriously people, not hard to understand so I'm not saying it again.  

You don't agree with me then thats fine, but if you need to make fun of me with some inside joke I don't understand because I don't agree with you, then I find that quite immature.

Edited by VelvetShadow
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