what authority does the church have to disipline a member?


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On 9/3/2018 at 12:04 PM, Carborendum said:

 

So, there are some things you agree are to be experienced after the commitment, after your sign on, just as you don't know what your husband looked like naked before you were married (assuming you were chaste before marriage).  The level of sacredness of sex during marriage is the level of sacredness of the temple ordinances.  It is to be experienced AFTER the decision to commit.

FYI I was a virgin when I got married, but I knew what to expect from sex, I knew how it worked, I knew what went were etc etc, I didn't go into my wedding night blind, and that is how I view getting baptised without knowing fully what to expect in the temple, going in blind and having to wait a year to find out what I really signed up for.  And that's just not good enough for me.  

Does that mean I will abandon my studies of this faith? No I will not do that, but I certainly don't have to agree with everything, and I don't agree with this.  Again, I mean no disrespect to any of you, this is my opinion this is what I think.

Edited by VelvetShadow
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6 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

This is a very serious commitment, I just think I should be able to know 100% what I am getting into before getting into it.  I don't understand why you all find that so hard to acknowledge that it is perfectly normal for me to feel that way.

Actually, I do understand. And I'm very much the same way.  I'm the guy who takes forever to buy something big because I actually read every word of the contracts I sign.  It drives some people crazy when I take up their time.  Most people just figure "it's boiler plate" and sign it blind.  I generally just shake my head and figure "a fool and his money".  I would guess you're the same kind of person?  You read every word of every contract you sign.  You annoy people because you're "not normal", you're not blind.  I get it.  I'm the same way.

The difference is that this is the mentality one should have when dealing with MAN.  When dealing with God, we proceed in faith, often not knowing everything.

The thing is that you're trusting in the arm of flesh.  All anyone here has said about the commitment is that you should NOT trust in the arm of flesh.  Trust in God. But you continue to counter with I need to study so that I know what is happening so that I can decide for myself.  Where are you even considering what God has told you? 

Man's wisdom is fine for dealings with men.  When dealing with God, we depend on God's wisdom, not our own.

I once made a home purchase for a boatload of money because I felt God told me to do so.  It made no sense.  Neither my wife nor I liked the house when we toured it.  And financially, it was a mess. Yet, we both got an impression that we should do this anyway.  All the earthly wisdom we had told us that we didn't know enough about the house.  We feared termites and wood rot.  Yet the impression was undeniable.  We moved forward.

In the end, we were right.  The house was not very practical.  It was overpriced.  And it had termites and wood rot.  I thought I had misinterpreted God's word.  Instead, it turned out that His ways were not my ways.  While a financial ruin, buying that home had many other ramifications that I won't take time to enumerate here.  It was a TREMENDOUS blessing.  And had I known the blessings that were in store, I would have GLADLY given up all that I did.

The Lord is asking you to make a leap of faith.  And you're countering him with "I need to know everything first."  Well, if you know everything first, then how much faith did you exercise in your choice?  We receive no reward until after the trial of our faith.

Have you ever heard the Hymn Lead Kindly Light?  I think of the following lines a lot:

Lead, kindly Light, amid th'encircling gloom;
Lead thou me on!
The night is dark, and I am far from home;
Lead thou me on!
Keep thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene--one step enough for me.

While it is wise when dealing with MEN to know everything about them, I find that when dealing with the Lord, it is better to have faith.

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7 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say here but it is obvious that a few of you are making fun of me in some way, the other person made the same insult at me with the silly picture of the girl form the Big Bang theory.  I hope you all find yourself hilarious.  I find a lot of you acting very un-christian and to be honest quite mean.

I don't want to sign up for something if I don't know what I am signing up for.  Seriously people, not hard to understand so I'm not saying it again.  

You don't agree with me then thats fine, but if you need to make fun of me with some inside joke I don't understand because I don't agree with you, then I find that quite immature.

Whoa.  Insult?  Inside joke?

Something's afoot people...

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4 minutes ago, Maureen said:

Some posters like @Just_A_Guy, @mirkwood, @anatess2 and @Vort are suspicious that @VelvetShadow is really @Blossom76 and/or @truthseaker in disguise.

M.

What? Just for the record everyone my name is Ann, Ann with no E, not that it is anyones business.  My nickname as a child was velvet so thats why I chose my online name.

Thank you for shedding some light on what is going on though, I knew there was some sort of joke happening at my expense

 

5 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Whoa.  Insult?  Inside joke?

Something's afoot people...

And a few of you do seem to have inside jokes with each other in the forums, I assumed that was what you were doing at my expense with the silly photo you posted.

 

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5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The thing is that you're trusting in the arm of flesh.  All anyone here has said about the commitment is that you should NOT trust in the arm of flesh.  Trust in God. But you continue to counter with I need to study so that I know what is happening so that I can decide for myself.  Where are you even considering what God has told you? 

The Lord is asking you to make a leap of faith.  And you're countering him with "I need to know everything first."  Well, if you know everything first, then how much faith did you exercise in your choice?  We receive no reward until after the trial of our faith.

While it is wise when dealing with MEN to know everything about them, I find that when dealing with the Lord, it is better to have faith.

The thing is you are basing that faith leap on the assumption that the mormon church is the true church.   Thats a circular argument in my opinion.  I need evidence of that claim before blindly agreeing to something I am not allowed to have all the facts about first.  Because as ut stands now from my point of view the mormon church IS the arm of the flesh, thats why you study something, to find out if its claims are true.

I believe the Lord is asking me to find my true spiritual home, the right church for me to join.  I will find it, perhaps it is the mormon church and perhaps it is not.  I will only work it out from study and prayer.  And if there is something that doesn't sit right with me that I can't reconcile and stops me joining then thats ok.

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Just now, VelvetShadow said:

The thing is you are basing that faith leap on the assumption that the mormon church is the true church.

Nope. Not my point at all.  All I've said from the beginning is that you need only proceed ifGod tells you to proceed.  Not because of the wisdom of man.

If you're saying that God has told you to not move forward, then DON'T.  But if He has, then DO SO, regardless of what you think you "should" know.

Notice that I actually told you to STOP your investigation.  I said so because I interpreted your comments as saying you were depending only on your own wisdom. If you proceed only on your own wisdom, you'll never find the truth.

I've said from the beginning that you should proceed with the path that the Lord has told you to take.

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10 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

The thing is you are basing that faith leap on the assumption that the mormon church is the true church.   Thats a circular argument in my opinion.  I need evidence of that claim before blindly agreeing to something I am not allowed to have all the facts about first.  Because as ut stands now from my point of view the mormon church IS the arm of the flesh, thats why you study something, to find out if its claims are true.

I believe the Lord is asking me to find my true spiritual home, the right church for me to join.  I will find it, perhaps it is the mormon church and perhaps it is not.  I will only work it out from study and prayer.  And if there is something that doesn't sit right with me that I can't reconcile and stops me joining then thats ok.

No he is basing it on you following some very simple steps.  Read the Book of Mormon (this is what you study).  Then pray about it.  Our position is that God will reveal to you by his Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true.  When you know that God has told you that, then you will also know you can pray and get answers to question like 'Is Joseph Smith a prophet?",  "Is the Church True?"  These are answers directly from God to you.  You do not need to know everything before you pray and ask God.  You do not need to know everything before God answers you. You do not (and should not) take anyone else's word for it. 

When you pray and ask God it does not matter that you do not know the Temple Ceremony.. or church history or 100's of other things... the only thing that matters is HIS answer to you.  Because then you are not making any assumptions.

 

Edited by estradling75
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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

Nope. Not my point at all.  All I've said from the beginning is that you need only proceed ifGod tells you to proceed.  Not because of the wisdom of man.

If you're saying that God has told you to not move forward, then DON'T.  But if He has, then DO SO, regardless of what you think you "should" know.

Notice that I actually told you to STOP your investigation.  I said so because I interpreted your comments as saying you were depending only on your own wisdom. If you proceed only on your own wisdom, you'll never find the truth.

I've said from the beginning that you should proceed with the path that the Lord has told you to take.

I will do what I feel God wants me to do, and I will still study this faith, but perhaps I should start to study others at the same time, then in prayer I can ask God which way he wants me to go.

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22 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

And a few of you do seem to have inside jokes with each other in the forums, I assumed that was what you were doing at my expense with the silly photo you posted.

No one's saying any inside jokes at all.  Not everyone is always the most polite (all around) but no one's saying any inside jokes.

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1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

No one's saying any inside jokes at all.  Not everyone is always the most polite (all around) but no one's saying any inside jokes.

Thanks for saying so, I appreciate it but @Maureen does agree with me that there is a joke at my expense and even spelled out what it was.  I don't think I'm being paranoid here.

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Just now, Jane_Doe said:

The comment was rude (I'll blatantly say that), but not an inside joke.  

Well I didn't understand it at all, I just knew it was meant to be unkind, so it certainly seemed like an inside joke to me.

And again thank you for your compassion, you have been very kind to me and helpful and actually answered a lot of my questions, I really do appreciate it.

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8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Actually, I do understand. And I'm very much the same way.  I'm the guy who takes forever to buy something big because I actually read every word of the contracts I sign.  It drives some people crazy when I take up their time.  Most people just figure "it's boiler plate" and sign it blind.  I generally just shake my head and figure "a fool and his money".  I would guess you're the same kind of person?  You read every word of every contract you sign.  You annoy people because you're "not normal", you're not blind.  I get it.  I'm the same way.

 

Yes that is definitely me!  That is how God made me , and I do read every word of everything I sign, drives my husband nuts BUT it has saved us a small fortune on a number of occasions!

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5 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

The thing is you are basing that faith leap on the assumption that the mormon church is the true church.   Thats a circular argument in my opinion.  I need evidence of that claim before blindly agreeing to something I am not allowed to have all the facts about first.  Because as ut stands now from my point of view the mormon church IS the arm of the flesh, thats why you study something, to find out if its claims are true.

I believe the Lord is asking me to find my true spiritual home, the right church for me to join.  I will find it, perhaps it is the mormon church and perhaps it is not.  I will only work it out from study and prayer.  And if there is something that doesn't sit right with me that I can't reconcile and stops me joining then thats ok.

Heavenly Father is unlikely to provide you with evidence.  The Holy Spirit will testify to the truthfulness of His Church.  You are either receptive and open to that testimony or you aren't.  Period. If you are and receive it, then exercise faith and get baptized.  If you aren't and you don't, then don't.  However, I certainly wouldn't go digging into things the Prophet deems sacred and private to gather knowledge illicitly then expect to view the covenants just as sacredly or to not be judged for your actions. 

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1 minute ago, Grunt said:

Heavenly Father is unlikely to provide you with evidence.  The Holy Spirit will testify to the truthfulness of His Church.  You are either receptive and open to that testimony or you aren't.  Period. If you are and receive it, then exercise faith and get baptized.  If you aren't and you don't, then don't.  However, I certainly wouldn't go digging into things the Prophet deems sacred and private to gather knowledge illicitly then expect to view the covenants just as sacredly or to not be judged for your actions. 

Hi @VelvetShadow, @Grunt here ^ is actually a convert, and a recent one (6 months?).  He too was trying to figure things out and all.  I would really recommend his thread "Missionaries", it's a good read just talking about his journey every step of the way, including the million questions.  And then the second million questions.  And then the third.  

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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Hi @VelvetShadow, @Grunt here ^ is actually a convert, and a recent one (6 months?).  He too was trying to figure things out and all.  I would really recommend his thread "Missionaries", it's a good read just talking about his journey every step of the way, including the million questions.  And then the second million questions.  And then the third.  

256 days

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34 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Honestly, because I'm not normal.  I have no idea how many months it is.  I know the days, though.   I wonder if my mind will switch to months at some point?

You mean to tell me that for the past 8 months you have been telling people the exact number of days ???

Man... when people ask how old my son is, I tell them 2 to 8 months old

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6 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

Thanks for saying so, I appreciate it but @Maureen does agree with me that there is a joke at my expense and even spelled out what it was.  I don't think I'm being paranoid here.

There’s no joke at your expense.  It became suspect when you took a picture of Blossom as an INSULT.  How does a picture of Blossom as a reply to some dude saying the phrase “blossom in the gospel” become an insult???  Especially after I spent a lot of time replying to your concerns with all seriousness.  So that’s why I said... something is afoot.

Edited by anatess2
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