what authority does the church have to disipline a member?

[Just_A_Guy]

It seems to me that sometimes, as a church our missionary efforts have perhaps fallen into the trap of wanting to simultaneously have our cake and eat it, too.

On the one hand, we market our teaching as being a universal theory or philosophy of Truth.  Now, I believe that fundamentally that perception is correct.  But when you try to make that your primary appeal for recruiting additional followers, investigators are naturally going to want to take an academic, cerebral approach—and they’re going to take a very, very long time in doing so.

On the other hand, we have the notion of continuing revelation and a very personal God who will honor Moroni’s promise and give the earnest seeker a direct encounter with divinity more-or-less for the asking.  This is usually where we come to the “hard sell” of our missionary efforts, and I think it’s the right approach—but it gets undercut, to some degree, if in the leadup to that moment our proselytizing has over-intellectualized what is supposed to be first and foremost a faith tradition.

Mormonism offers relationships, not just philosophies.  That’s an important distinction; because the process for accepting a new relationship is rather different from the process of accepting a new philosophy or theory.  

With relationships, you go through a “dating” phase fully aware that a person is a messy, complicated, multi-faceted entity that will take years to know “completely” (if such a thing is even possible).  So you look for a few key attributes, keep a critical eye out for any “dealbreakers”, and then—once you feel the relationship is basically workable—you commit to it with faith that the fundamentals will be strong enough to let you successfully work through the conflicts that will inevitably arise.  

There’s a lot of merit in approaching Mormonism intellectually as though it were a philosophy or academic theory.  You’ll definitely learn a lot that way.  But without the relational aspect (or, if you will, a “testimony”), my identification as a Mormon is a house of cards that could well come crashing down the first time I encounter someone who is smarter than, or better-informed than, or a better debater  than me.  And there’s always someone out there who’s better than me.  Testimony—that personal relationship with and witness from God Himself—is the key, and at the most basic level either an investigator receives and acts on that testimony; or they don’t.  

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

@VelvetShadow Yes take the time you need. The missionaries are doing their job but if you are not comfortable then wait. Being baptized and confirmed gives you greater wisdom then you can receive prior to these commitments, if you continue to obey the commandments. 

[zil]

1 hour ago, Just_A_Guy said:

once you feel the relationship is basically workable—you commit to it with faith that the fundamentals will be strong enough to let you successfully work through the conflicts that will inevitably arise.

This.  Anymore, a significant percentage of the population just won't do this.  It's why we have so many divorces, it's why people don't stay in any relationship (personal, professional, religious) when the going gets tough - they just move on.  Humans are now as disposable as cell phones - perhaps more so.  And it seems like a lot of people reject the mere notion of having an unshakable testimony born of the Spirit.

Meanwhile, would you like me to do editor duty on your post?  Some of your terminology is so last week.

(teasing, just teasing)

[anatess2]

16 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

I am an investigator and in defence of the OP I have been asked repeatedly by very nice, well meaning missionaries to be baptised, in what I believe is too short a time to agree to commit my life to a belief system that I don't know enough about yet.  When I expressed this to the missionaries they say 'as long as you know the Book of Mormon is true and that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then you know enough to join".

I found this strange (and to be completely honest a bit unethical) so I asked the bishop at my local ward about it and he said it is normal practice and if I believe in the Book of Mormon and Jospeh Smith then I should be baptised ASAP.

While I will not be joining the church anytime soon, (I am the kind of person who wants to know everything before committing to something), I can completely understand how others do join very quickly, the missionaries DO ask you to join after only a couple of lessons.  

If the OP did in fact follow and trust in the missionaries to join the church after only a few weeks of investigating, it is completely understandable that they would not know enough about the church to know exactly what they are agreeing to join.  If this is the case you can't really put all the blame and responsibility on the OP when this is the standard practice of the church.

VelvetShadow, my response to inquisitive is born out of a history of inquisitive viciously attacking the Church that she just joined for things she claims she didn't know such as - she didn't know "the Church investigates her looking for sins" or she didn't know "nobody will help her with her issues" or she finds it appalling that the Church teaches homosexuality is a sin because she says she's never heard of a Church that teaches this, etc. etc.  She's seeing things that are not there and when we explain these things to her to help her in her journey, she attacks us.

The requirements of baptism is simple - Do you believe in God, Do you believe in Jesus Christ, Do you believe in the Plan of Salvation as revealed in the restored gospel, Do you believe that the LDS Church and its Prophets are Christ's representative on earth, do you believe that the Book of Mormon is true.

The answers to those questions does not lie on academic study.  You can study up and down academia and you will never find the proof you need that there is a God or that Jesus Christ is His Son.  The proof can only be born by the Holy Ghost.  Therefore, it may be a simple matter of the missionaries asking, "Do you believe that the Book of Mormon is true".  But the process by which you know that the Book of Mormon is true is not so simple.  What they're actually asking you is if the Holy Ghost has confirmed it to you, not that you've academically proven it.  THAT experience of being touched by the Holy Ghost is the process by which you learn about everything else.  Baptism does not require that you know everything because that is impossible.  Rather Baptism requires that you are ready to exercise your faith in the power of the Holy Ghost - that process by which you learn everything else - and make the contract to be on Team Jesus.  Before you are baptized, the missionaries or the bishop will give you an "interview" to make sure you understand what is involved in that contract.

So, if inquisitive did her part in her journey to baptism, she would have had the experience of learning the truth through the power of the Holy Ghost and when questions arose after her baptism, then it would not be a matter of "the missionaries never told me this, the church is evil!" but a matter of, "I know ___ is true as confirmed to me by the Holy Ghost, I will need to study this new information in the light of that truth".

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by anatess2

[VelvetShadow]

8 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The requirements of baptism is simple - Do you believe in God, Do you believe in Jesus Christ, Do you believe in the Plan of Salvation as revealed in the restored gospel, Do you believe that the LDS Church and its Prophets are Christ's representative on earth, do you believe that the Book of Mormon is true.

The answers to those questions does not lie on academic study. 

 

I was not aware of your issues with the OP,  but to speak for myself, and with the greatest respect to you and all LDS people, I don't agree with the above requirements for baptism.  I think its more complicated than that.  You can feel and know all you like but that doesn't mean you know exactly what you are signing up for when you join the church.  

For example, I have asked what happens in the temple a few times and I get no specific answers, only 'you find out when you get there but its about making covenants with God, and its where you get your garments', but they will give me no details of the ceremonies or what exactly  is said/done in the temple. To me thats a problem, until I know what happens in there I can't say with all honesty that I know what I'm getting into if I join.  

What if I don't agree with what happens in the temple? It will be too late for me because I would have already joined and been a member for at least a year, and then I might find out that what happens in the temple is not acceptable to me at all.  It's a very big problem for me and I'm sure others as well.

[Grunt]

3 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I was not aware of your issues with the OP,  but to speak for myself, and with the greatest respect to you and all LDS people, I don't agree with the above requirements for baptism.  I think its more complicated than that.  You can feel and know all you like but that doesn't mean you know exactly what you are signing up for when you join the church.  

For example, I have asked what happens in the temple a few times and I get no specific answers, only 'you find out when you get there but its about making covenants with God, and its where you get your garments', but they will give me no details of the ceremonies or what exactly  is said/done in the temple. To me thats a problem, until I know what happens in there I can't say with all honesty that I know what I'm getting into if I join.  

What if I don't agree with what happens in the temple? It will be too late for me because I would have already joined and been a member for at least a year, and then I might find out that what happens in the temple is not acceptable to me at all.  It's a very big problem for me and I'm sure others as well.

I can see both sides.  If you know, then why wouldn't you?   What differenc do Temple ordinances make?

Edited August 22, 2018 by Grunt

[Guest MormonGator]

4 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

 It's a very big problem for me and I'm sure others as well.

Agree 100%. I wish the temple prep classes were more descriptive of what happens in the temple. Yes, I understand it's sacred. But it would have been nice to know before going through it for my endowment/sealing. 

[VelvetShadow]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I can see both sides.  If you know, then why wouldn't you?   What differenc do Temple ordinances make?

Depending on what they are it could make all the difference in the world.  The point is you really don't know what you are signing up for because the temple ordinances are kept so secret

[VelvetShadow]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Agree 100%. I wish the temple prep classes were more descriptive of what happens in the temple. Yes, I understand it's sacred. But it would have been nice to know before going through it for my endowment/sealing. 

Thank you, I really appreciate you saying this

[Grunt]

1 minute ago, VelvetShadow said:

Depending on what they are it could make all the difference in the world.  The point is you really don't know what you are signing up for because the temple ordinances are kept so secret

That's very true.  It was tough for me, also. I was just confused when you said it didn't matter if you "know".  To me, it absolutely mattered.   Once I knew the Book of Mormon was true and the Church was Christ's Church, the million things I didn't know didn't matter because I trust Christ.  

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Thank you, I really appreciate you saying this

Anytime bud. My thoughts on the temple are well known here-I don't like going very much. I've gone three times (pre-2015, with friends, to get sealed, and to do baptisms for the dead) and I haven't gone since. 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Depending on what they are it could make all the difference in the world.  The point is you really don't know what you are signing up for because the temple ordinances are kept so secret

This is simply not so. Every covenant you make in the endowment is carefully and fully explained to you before you agree to it.

[VelvetShadow]

1 minute ago, Grunt said:

That's very true.  It was tough for me, also. I was just confused when you said it didn't matter if you "know".  To me, it absolutely mattered.   Once I knew the Book of Mormon was true and the Church was Christ's Church, the million things I didn't know didn't matter because I trust Christ.  

Its different for me, I have always trusted Christ, that is not an issue, but to trust a church enough to join when I know there are things they will not reveal to me until I have been a member for at least a year, that really does matter.

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Its different for me, I have always trusted Christ, that is not an issue, but to trust a church enough to join when I know there are things they will not reveal to me until I have been a member for at least a year, that really does matter.

Yup, I agree with this too. It's a challenge, that's for sure. 

[VelvetShadow]

Just now, Vort said:

This is simply not so. Every covenant you make in the endowment is carefully and fully explained to you before you agree to it.

But it is not explained before I am baptised and that is my issue.  And from what I've heard not in temple prep classes either (just that its very symbolic), only at the temple itself.  So you would have to walk out of the temple just before the ceremony and that would be a lot of pressure on a person.  I don't agree with it, thats just how I see it, everyone is different, this is just how I view it and in all honesty it is the main thing stopping me from joining the church.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, VelvetShadow said:

But it is not explained before I am baptised and that is my issue.  And from what I've heard not in temple prep classes either (just that its very symbolic), only at the temple itself.  So you would have to walk out of the temple just before the ceremony and that would be a lot of pressure on a person.  I don't agree with it, thats just how I see it, everyone is different, this is just how I view it and in all honesty it is the main thing stopping me from joining the church.

Exactly-for me it was explained at the temple as well. 

[askandanswer]

Well I guess a degree of faith and trust is required. That shouldn't be too surprising in a relgious organisation, where faith should be the foundation of the entire beleif structure. 

[VelvetShadow]

1 minute ago, askandanswer said:

Well I guess a degree of faith and trust is required. That shouldn't be too surprising in a relgious organisation, where faith should be the foundation of the entire beleif structure. 

I have faith in God, I have faith in Jesus, but asking me to have faith in a church that won't tell me whats going to happen a year after I join - thats something completely different 

[Vort]

5 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

But it is not explained before I am baptised and that is my issue.

Again, this is not so. The temple endowment is well-explained in numerous places. Buy or borrow a copy of Elder Boyd K. Packer's book The Holy Temple. It will provide you with a good grounding in covenants and a general explanation of what covenants one makes in the temple.

If you want specific wording and such, then go to the temple. Some things are not exposed outside the appropriate context. You may learn all about sex before you marry, but don't expect to see your wife in the nude until you've married her.

[VelvetShadow]

I mean absolutely no offence to anyone by expressing my opinion on this, but it is my opinion and I'm sure the opinion of many others as well.  Each to their own

[zil]

Just now, VelvetShadow said:

But it is not explained before I am baptised and that is my issue.  And from what I've heard not in temple prep classes either (just that its very symbolic), only at the temple itself.  So you would have to walk out of the temple just before the ceremony and that would be a lot of pressure on a person.  I don't agree with it, thats just how I see it, everyone is different, this is just how I view it and in all honesty it is the main thing stopping me from joining the church.

Read the scriptures.  Then study the scriptures.  There is no covenant made in the temple that is not explained in the scriptures - it may not be explicitly labeled with neon signs saying "you'll covenant to this using these words", but they are all there.  The difference is that in the scriptures, we are taught and invited to do these things - to follow Christ; in the temple, we covenant to do them.

1 minute ago, VelvetShadow said:

I have faith in God, I have faith in Jesus, but asking me to have faith in a church that won't tell me whats going to happen a year after I join - thats something completely different 

I think we've (the forum and you) had this discussion once before.  I know you see it as having faith in a church, but if you get there, just like we do not see it that way, you will not see it that way.  What you need to have is faith in God.  God will tell you whether the Book of Mormon is true.  God will tell you whether The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ's restored church on the earth today.  That is the confirmation you want, and once you have it, you will not need to have faith in the Church because your faith in God will be what guides you.

[Grunt]

15 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Its different for me, I have always trusted Christ, that is not an issue, but to trust a church enough to join when I know there are things they will not reveal to me until I have been a member for at least a year, that really does matter.

Do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?  Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of the Christ?

[VelvetShadow]

I mean absolutely no offence to anyone by expressing my opinion on this, but it is my opinion and I'm sure the opinion of many others as well.  Each to their own

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Again, this is not so. The temple endowment is well-explained in numerous places. Buy or borrow a copy of Elder Boyd K. Packer's book The Holy Temple. It will provide you with a good grounding in covenants and a general explanation of what covenants one makes in the temple.

If you want specific wording and such, then go to the temple. Some things are not exposed outside the appropriate context. You may learn all about sex before you marry, but don't expect to see your wife in the nude until you've married her.

I don't agree, I have searched high and low for real factual information on what happens in the temple and there is no information out there that tells you what really happens, only vague information nothing concrete that actually explains it properly.  I am not going to join a church with a 'general explanation' of what happens in the temple, the temple is so important so I need to know what exactly happens there before joining.

Edited August 22, 2018 by VelvetShadow

[VelvetShadow]

3 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Do you believe the Book of Mormon is true?  Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of the Christ?

The first one yes, the second one I am not so sure, and it doesn't help that they keep the most important ceremonies a secret from me. I can't join a church that isn't upfront about all their beliefs/ceremonies.  I don't like that I feel like they are hiding things from me.

Again this is my opinion, this is my view on it and I have nothing against those who see it differently.

[Just_A_Guy]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Exactly-for me it was explained at the temple as well. 

It’s been a while, but my fuzzy recollection is that my temple prep class outlined what the covenants would be—not verbatim, but it went over the underlying concept of each covenant.  Different strokes, I guess . . .

I also benefited from an aunt who was a temple worker; and she and her husband sat me down the night before and explained things in a more detailed way than you ordinarily hear (there are things we CAN’T talk about outside of the temple due to specific covenant, versus things we just DON’T LIKE to talk about outside of the temple due to an individual desire to keep things sacred).  I think that’s a good way to do things.