what authority does the church have to disipline a member?

[Sunday21]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

Gator's excuse is that he's from Florida.

Oh yeah. I forgot. So since he is about to be either drowned from rising water levels or killed in the next hurricane, we have to go easy on him? Is this it? Or are people from Florida suspect in some way?  

[Sunday21]

@VelvetShadow How you asked God, a clear Yes or No question? That is ‘Should I be baptized?’

[Jane_Doe]

12 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

Oh yeah. I forgot. So since he is about to be either drowned from rising water levels or killed in the next hurricane, we have to go easy on him? Is this it? Or are people from Florida suspect in some way?  

The heat rots a person's brain away.

[Sunday21]

3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

The heat rots a person's brain away.

 I see! Good to know! Poor Gator! 

[person0]

@VelvetShadow,

If you read the Book of Abraham you could have approximately 50% understanding of what types of things you will learn / see in the temple.

If you attend a high school or university graduation ceremony in the united states you could have another 15% understanding.

If you attend a baptism (in our Church) in the near future you could have another 5%.

(Oddly enough) If you attend a Catholic Mass you could have another 5-10%.

If you pay attention the next time you are asked during sacrament meeting to sustain someone's calling, you could have another 5%.

If you read Luke 7:7 you could have another 2% of the puzzle.

If you read this article about the Law of Consecration you could have another 2%.

If you keep the 10 commandments and understand them you could have another 2%.

If you watch any of the many youtube videos of Islamic prayer, you might be capable of gathering another 2%.

Read Revelation Ch. 2 to seek out another 2%.  And then just general study of the scriptures, doctrines, and teachings of the Church will get you most of the way there.

The main thing to understand is that, in reality, there will be nothing in the temple that is not observable in every day life; what will be there, is a revealed instruction and guidance of specific things.  It is organized in a way that may seem foreign at first, but then, if a year from now you come back and look at this list, after having gone through the temple, hopefully you would clearly see what I am talking about.

[Vort]

10 minutes ago, person0 said:

The main thing to understand is that, in reality, there will be nothing in the temple that is not observable in every day life; what will be there, is a revealed instruction and guidance of specific things.  It is organized in a way that may seem foreign at first, but then, if a year from now you come back and look at this list, after having gone through the temple, hopefully you would clearly see what I am talking about.

I would go so far as to say that there is nothing presented in the temple, at least as far as the basic covenants go, that you can't find out from scripture study and classroom teaching.

[VelvetShadow]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

@VelvetShadow How you asked God, a clear Yes or No question? That is ‘Should I be baptized?’

like I said earlier yes I have and my answer is I need more information before committing my life to the LDS church

Edited August 23, 2018 by VelvetShadow

[VelvetShadow]

31 minutes ago, Vort said:

I would go so far as to say that there is nothing presented in the temple, at least as far as the basic covenants go, that you can't find out from scripture study and classroom teaching.

If that is true, then there is no harm in watching the videos then, they are of a guy going through the temple rites with a camera on his shirt button, there is no commentary or anything like that, just what happens in the temple.

[Vort]

32 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

If that is true, then there is no harm in watching the videos then

You have no clue what you're saying. Of course there is harm in mocking sacred things.

[VelvetShadow]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

You have no clue what you're saying. Of course there is harm in mocking sacred things.

I'm not mocking anything and I wouldn't be watching a video with intent to mock anything, only to know what it is I will be expected to participate in a year down the track should I join the LDS church.  It is to be informed, not to mock.

[Just_A_Guy]

40 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

If that is true, then there is no harm in watching the videos then, they are of a guy going through the temple rites with a camera on his shirt button, there is no commentary or anything like that, just what happens in the temple.

With all due respect, a young man dating a young woman has a pretty good idea of the basic routines his girlfriend follows when she’s alone.  But that still doesn’t justify him in setting up a hidden camera in her apartment.

And as a Mormon who attends the temple somewhat regularly and (for all I know) may well be in some of the videos you’re talking about, I want to emphasize that I would never have consented to be in such a film and would be personally grateful if you would respect the individual rights to privacy of myself and any other Church members featured in those videos, by leaving them alone.  If you must know the content of the temple rituals, there are websites out there featuring the written texts which you could peruse without committing a personal violation against myself and/or my loved ones and friends.  

Edited August 23, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[VelvetShadow]

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

With all due respect, a young man dating a young woman has a pretty good idea of the basic routines his girlfriend follows when she’s alone.  But that still doesn’t justify him in setting up a hidden camera in her apartment.

And as a Mormon who attends the temple somewhat regularly and (for all I know) may well be in some of the videos you’re talking about, I want to emphasize that I would never have consented to be in such a film and would be personally grateful if you would respect the individual rights to privacy of myself and any other Church members featured in those videos, by leaving them alone.  If you must know the content of the temple rituals, there are websites out there featuring the written texts which you could peruse without committing a personal violation against myself and/or my loved ones and friends.  

I understand your point.  If you are in those videos maybe you can make a complaint and get them taken down? I mean absolutely no disrespect by watching them but you must understand reading a text and seeing something with your own eyes is very different.  

From my point of view, I want to know what happens in the temple before being baptised so I know exactly what I am signing up for.  The church does not produce videos on the temple ordinances for new members to watch to understand the importance of what happens there, so the way I see it, I have no choice but to go to other sources for this information.  

Any other church (and I have attended quite a few in my search for the true church) is quite welcoming to non-members watching their rituals/ceremonies, they may not be able to participate because they are not members BUT they are more than welcome to watch.  

I can't just sign up for something if I don't know 100% what I am signing up for, especially when it involves who I am trusting the care of my soul with.  I do hope you can understand my point of view here.  Again I mean absolutely no disrespect but I can't in good conscious join without knowing.

[Just_A_Guy]

11 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

I understand your point.  If you are in those videos maybe you can make a complaint and get them taken down? I mean absolutely no disrespect by watching them but you must understand reading a text and seeing something with your own eyes is very different.  

From my point of view, I want to know what happens in the temple before being baptised so I know exactly what I am signing up for.  The church does not produce videos on the temple ordinances for new members to watch to understand the importance of what happens there, so the way I see it, I have no choice but to go to other sources for this information.  

Any other church (and I have attended quite a few in my search for the true church) is quite welcoming to non-members watching their rituals/ceremonies, they may not be able to participate because they are not members BUT they are more than welcome to watch.  

I can't just sign up for something if I don't know 100% what I am signing up for, especially when it involves who I am trusting the care of my soul with.  I do hope you can understand my point of view here.  Again I mean absolutely no disrespect but I can't in good conscious join without knowing.

I get where you’re coming from.  Earlier I think you talked about different backgrounds leading us to conceptualize the situation differently, which I think was wise.  So let me plainly give an orthodox LDS viewpoint:

Your request is the theological equivalent of a young man telling a young woman that he might marry her—but only if she sleeps with him first.  

A woman may well walk away from such an ultimatum, both to preserve her sense of self and also because she wants to sanctify future relationships by not offering up a part of herself to someone who will not first give her a basic level of commitment.  And the Church’s motivations are very similar.

If you can’t join my community without violating me, then—and I say this with brotherly affection and an earnest hope that we may someday reconcile on different terms—but please, don’t join until you’re prepared to respect both me as an individual and the collective values of the community you want to join.

[VelvetShadow]

9 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I get where you’re coming from.  Earlier I think you talked about different backgrounds leading us to conceptualize the situation differently, which I think was wise.  So let me plainly give an orthodox LDS viewpoint:

Your request is the theological equivalent of a young man telling a young woman that he might marry her—but only if she sleeps with him first.  

A woman may well walk away from such an ultimatum, both to preserve her sense of self and also because she wants to sanctify future relationships by not offering up a part of herself to someone who will not first give her a basic level of commitment.  And the Church’s motivations are very similar.

If you can’t join my community without violating me, then—and I say this with brotherly affection and an earnest hope that we may someday reconcile on different terms—but please, don’t join until you’re prepared to respect both me as an individual and the collective values of the community you want to join.

That may be your opinion and you of course are entitled to it, but I am also entitled to mine, I can't join something if I don't know the entirety of what I am joining, so I will find out what happens in the temple and if I am ok with it then I'm one step closer to being baptised, and that in my opinion, is a good thing. 

I also don't really agree with your analogy here, the young man knows what sex is, he can't have it until he is married BUT he does know what it is and how it works, his experience when he does have it will be unique and his own BUT he does have an idea of what to expect and what is expected of him in the situation.  

That is all I am looking for with the temple, confirmation and knowledge of what I am to expect if I join the LDS church and I feel I have every right to know this information BEFORE I am baptised.  This is a life long decision for me.

[VelvetShadow]

Ok people quick prayer session and I found two youtube channels to distract me from watching the temple videos, I'm not saying I won't watch them before joining, but I am saying I will binge watch as many videos on the below two channels before watching anything on the temple not put out by the church.

BYU's Maxwell Institute and 

BYU Religious Education

everyone can chill now!  

[Grunt]

31 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

Ok people quick prayer session and I found two youtube channels to distract me from watching the temple videos, I'm not saying I won't watch them before joining, but I am saying I will binge watch as many videos on the below two channels before watching anything on the temple not put out by the church.

BYU's Maxwell Institute and 

BYU Religious Education

everyone can chill now!  

Maxwell Institute has a great podcast I listen to.

[Guest MormonGator]

8 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

The heat rots a person's brain away.

You are assuming I had one to begin with. 😉

[askandanswer]

6 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

like I said earlier yes I have and my answer is I need more information before committing my life to the LDS church

@VelvetShadow here is a link to the teacher's manual for lesson one of the Temple Preparation class. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual/lesson-1?lang=eng

And here is the link to the whole manual, containing 7 lessons.

https://www.lds.org/manual/endowed-from-on-high-temple-preparation-seminar-teachers-manual?lang=eng

If you familiarise yourself with this material then you will be familiar with what is taught to members of the church preparing to go to the Temple.

You could also try the book that someone, maybe Just A Guy referred to you earlier - The Holy Temple, by Boyd K Packer, available from Deseret Books through this link

https://deseretbook.com/p/holy-temple-boyd-k-packer-4212?variant_id=106475-hardcover

The links on this page are likely to be helpful

https://www.lds.org/pages/the-holy-temple-2011-03?lang=eng

See also https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/10/prepare-for-the-blessings-of-the-temple?lang=eng and https://www.lds.org/ensign/2010/10/the-holy-temple?lang=eng

You have consistently said the prompting you have received is to get more information. You have also said a number of times that you wan't to know what you will be committing to before you make the commitments. I suggest to you that this might be two separate things. What the Lord is telling you - to get more information - seems to be different from what you want - to first know what the commitments are. It might be you who is saying you first want to know what the commitments are, and it might be the Spirit prompting you that you need more information. If this is the case I believe you will be better off following what the Lord wants, as revealed to you through the Spirit, that is, to get more information, rather than following your own desires - to first know what the commitments are. When it comes to getting more information, the links here provided you with an abundance of means to act on the promptings you have received. 

[mirkwood]

 

11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

( @VelvetShadow, apologies for the inside jokes here.  @mirkwood is a police officer by profession, and I’m a state attorney.  Which means we get really dark senses of humor.  @MormonGator, on the other hand . . . I don’t know what his excuse is.)

I need full name, DOB, addresses with minute detail descriptions of your residences so I can come pay a visit.  I'm bringing lots of friends so have the BBQ going...

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, mirkwood said:

.  I'm bringing lots of friends 

But you don't have any friends....

[mirkwood]

11 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Mom was a nurse. My sense of humor is far more twisted and morbid than anyone else because of that! 

You have not spent much time with veteran patrol cops...

[mirkwood]

Just now, MormonGator said:

But you don't have any friends....

With friends like you...

[Just_A_Guy]

6 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

[1]That may be your opinion and you of course are entitled to it, but I am also entitled to mine, I can't join something if I don't know the entirety of what I am joining, so I will find out what happens in the temple and if I am ok with it then I'm one step closer to being baptised, and that in my opinion, is a good thing. 

[2]I also don't really agree with your analogy here, the young man knows what sex is, he can't have it until he is married BUT he does know what it is and how it works, his experience when he does have it will be unique and his own BUT he does have an idea of what to expect and what is expected of him in the situation.  

[3]That is all I am looking for with the temple, confirmation and knowledge of what I am to expect if I join the LDS church and I feel I have every right to know this information BEFORE I am baptised.  This is a life long decision for me.

1.  You totally missed the point.  I'm saying don't be baptized if you aren't prepared to respect the belief system you'd be embracing and the community you'd be joining.

2.  Whatever knowledge he may appropriately have, he doesn't get by secretly recording his girlfriend.

3.  Then it's not a faith system for you; and while you may go through the motions of baptism, you'll never really blossom in the gospel.  

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Velvet,

I am a huge fan of the whole "go into this with your eyes open and fully informed" stuff. Can't fault you even a little bit for wanting to know what you don't know.  But I offer two things to consider:

1. The only good reason to get baptized into the church, is you have come to understand that God wants you to.  If you get that spiritual witness, it doesn't matter if we're doing good wholesome stuff in the temple, or weird lizard-people stuff - you should be a member of the church.  And if you don't, it doesn't matter how attractive our doctrines and practices are, how beautiful or comforting or wonderful the temple - you'd be joining for the wrong reasons.

2. I'm sure you've picked up on this by now, but we're obviously hugely sensitive about what happens in the temple.  Please consider such things as wanting to see us walk around in our underwear, or peek into our bedrooms and bathrooms to see what happens there.  Those youtube vids are violations of our privacy.  We are sad when we think about people watching us there.  

But no really though - I can absolutely get behind the notion of wanting to learn everything first.  It's wise when thinking about such a commitment. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Vort]

29 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

while you may go through the motions of baptism, you'll never really blossom in the gospel.

An important consideration for any truthseeker.