Comparing Prophet Joseph Smith and Howard Storm Ph.D?


DennisTate
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Did Prophet Joseph Smith and Howard Storm Ph. D. get their information from the same source?  

6 members have voted

  1. 1. Did Prophet Joseph Smith and Howard Storm Ph. D. get their information from the same source?

    • Yes
      2
    • No...
      4
    • I am not sure ... Howard Storm may have been deceived by Satan appearing as an angel of light.
      0


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I would like to do a poll..... .I think I know the answer already but I personally have similar reasons for

altering my life radically after reading many near death experience accounts.  I am going to use former ATheist Howard Storm Ph. D.

as our example because I truly was blown away by his book..... My Descent Into Death. 

 

Would you say that former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. received his astounding information from the same source as 

Prophet Joseph Smith?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/gods-compelling-witness-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

Quote

If Joseph were not a prophet, then in order to account for these and many other remarkable doctrinal insights, the critics must make the argument that he was also a theological genius. But if that were the case, one might ask: why was Joseph the only one in the 1,800 years following Christ’s ministry to produce such a breadth of unique and clarifying doctrines? Because it was revelation, not brilliance, that was the source of this book.

 

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For exactly the same reasons as why the article asserts that Joseph Smith must have been a prophet........

I regard that the insights on the future given to former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. during his near death experience 

have the power to bring many thousands to genuine repentance.  Howard Storm gives us reason to hope for the future and

wow, but what he was shown helps to make sense out of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and the minor prophets!

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a04

 

Quote

 

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.

The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.

And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.

There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.

What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.

People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.

Animals lived with people, in harmony.

People, in this best of all worlds, weren't interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

Would you say that former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. received his astounding information from the same source as 

Prophet Joseph Smith?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/gods-compelling-witness-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

 

LDS believe that ALL Truth comes from God.  Receiving this Truth is not limited to just people in His Church, but ALL men are entitled to receive it-- the Father gives Truth to those that earnestly ask.  Storm's account might indeed by revelation for him (I am not in a position to judge that).

Now all that being said, different people have different roles/things they do in this life.  I believe that Joseph Smith was called to be a Prophet of God, hold that formal office in God's Church, and lead in that role.  Storm is not in that role-- which neither am I.  Different roles for different people.

 

 

That all makes your poll hard to answer: because yes this Storm dude could indeed have received revelation, but that doesn't put him in the role of Prophet of God the way Joseph Smith was.

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41 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

LDS believe that ALL Truth comes from God.  Receiving this Truth is not limited to just people in His Church, but ALL men are entitled to receive it-- the Father gives Truth to those that earnestly ask.  Storm's account might indeed by revelation for him (I am not in a position to judge that).

Now all that being said, different people have different roles/things they do in this life.  I believe that Joseph Smith was called to be a Prophet of God, hold that formal office in God's Church, and lead in that role.  Storm is not in that role-- which neither am I.  Different roles for different people.

 

 

That all makes your poll hard to answer: because yes this Storm dude could indeed have received revelation, but that doesn't put him in the role of Prophet of God the way Joseph Smith was.

Good points...... yes we have very different roles to play in life.  

Something that I really liked about Howard Storm's NDE was his Life Review...... .that resulted in him being humbled and

turned toward Messiah Yeshua - Jesus. 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a03
 

Quote

 

3. The Life Review of Howard Storm
 

dante_last_judgment.jpgNext, they wanted to talk about my life. To my surprise my life played out before me, maybe six or eight feet in front of me, from beginning to end.

 

The life review was very much in their control, and they showed me my life, but not from my point of view. I saw me in my life and this whole thing was a lesson, even though I didn't know it at the time. They were trying to teach me something, but I didn't know it was a teaching experience, because I didn't know that I would be coming back. We just watched my life from beginning to the end. Some things they slowed down on, and zoomed in on and other things they went right through.

 

My life was shown in a way that I had never thought of before. All of the things that I had worked to achieve, the recognition that I had worked for, in elementary school, in high school, in college, and in my career, they meant nothing in this setting.

 

I could feel their feelings of sorrow and suffering, or joy, as my life's review unfolded. They didn't say that something was bad or good, but I could feel it. And I could sense all those things they were indifferent to. They didn't, for example, look down on my high school shot-put record. They just didn't feel anything towards it, nor towards other things which I had taken so much pride in.

 

What they responded to was how I had interacted with other people. That was the long and short of it. Unfortunately, most of my interactions with other people didn't measure up with how I should have interacted, which was in a loving way. Whenever I did react during my life in a loving way they rejoiced.
 
Most of the time I found that my interactions with other people had been manipulative. During my professional career, for example, I saw myself sitting in my office, playing the college professor, while a student came to me with a personal problem. I sat there looking compassionate, and patient, and loving, while inside I was bored to death. I would check my watch under my desk as I anxiously waited for the student to finish.

 

 

This reminds me of a statement in Hebrews......

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

 

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If one assumes that both people are accurately relating what they were told/shown - and you assume that the same source would not directly contradict itself, i think the assumption hard to make.  Storm, in some of his YT videos and book, says things that are the exact opposite of what is taught in the Mormon (sorry, President Nelson - i'm not sure that name is ever going away) church.  

For example what Howard Storm says is God's plan vs what is taught in the plan of salvation.  

Or when Jesus tells Howard that people building shrines or elaborate houses of worship in His name mean absolutely nothing to Him.

And subjectively, it feels like they place the importance on different things.  Howard Storm relates that in the eyes of God, the most important thing he'd done in his life to the point he died was holding his sister one night as she wept alone after being beaten by their father.  Maybe that's just my perception, but i get a completely different feeling as to what's of ultimate value in the Mormon heaven.  

i love Howard Storm's accounts, too, though.

If you haven't listened to Amy Call's experience, that's one i'd highly recommend as well.

Petra Nicoll shares a childhood NDE also that i enjoy.  It's one i go to sleep by - as much for the soothing voice and music as content.  There's just such an overall gentleness to it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqBZhWdkvGI

i don't know why there is so much variety regarding near death experiences.  i guess a person's perceptions of the inexpressible play a lot into it.  

And then also, honestly, if members feel as cold and empty when contemplating my ideation of the afterlife as i do when contemplating theirs, i can understand why maybe Jesus would said there were many rooms in heaven.  

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9 hours ago, lostinwater said:

If one assumes that both people are accurately relating what they were told/shown - and you assume that the same source would not directly contradict itself, i think the assumption hard to make.  Storm, in some of his YT videos and book, says things that are the exact opposite of what is taught in the Mormon (sorry, President Nelson - i'm not sure that name is ever going away) church.  

For example what Howard Storm says is God's plan vs what is taught in the plan of salvation.  

Or when Jesus tells Howard that people building shrines or elaborate houses of worship in His name mean absolutely nothing to Him.

And subjectively, it feels like they place the importance on different things.  Howard Storm relates that in the eyes of God, the most important thing he'd done in his life to the point he died was holding his sister one night as she wept alone after being beaten by their father.  Maybe that's just my perception, but i get a completely different feeling as to what's of ultimate value in the Mormon heaven.  

i love Howard Storm's accounts, too, though.

If you haven't listened to Amy Call's experience, that's one i'd highly recommend as well.

Petra Nicoll shares a childhood NDE also that i enjoy.  It's one i go to sleep by - as much for the soothing voice and music as content.  There's just such an overall gentleness to it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqBZhWdkvGI

i don't know why there is so much variety regarding near death experiences.  i guess a person's perceptions of the inexpressible play a lot into it.  

And then also, honestly, if members feel as cold and empty when contemplating my ideation of the afterlife as i do when contemplating theirs, i can understand why maybe Jesus would said there were many rooms in heaven.  

Truly good points...... I have to admit that NDE accounts put me into some serious cognitive, philosophical and theological 

dissonance as well.......... I prefer the confusion that I have in my mind now over the overly simplistic dogmatic teachings of the 

Worldwide Church of God though!

 

I really did like this explanation though..... for why and how the world would have such a different economic atmosphere by the year 2185....

Quote

 

Howard Storm's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.

 

 

and..... I should repeat one important verse from post #1......

Quote

 

The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.

 

 

 

It sure looks like some passages in Malachi hold the key to the world avoiding being....."smitten with a curse."

 

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
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I am not one to give a lot of credence to near death experiences.  I believe there is a very important and critical difference between a near death and actual death experience.  I am not saying that revelation cannot or does not come from a near death experience - just that anyone willing to publish personal things openly to the public - especially for money and/or fame is likely either throwing pearls before swine or casting fake pearls before the gullible.   Of course there are always exceptions but personal revelation is intended mostly to be personal.  I am just suggesting an abundant careful attitude of skepticism coupled with a willingness to the unlikely possibility of discovering some new insight. 

 

The Traveler

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16 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Speaking of asking the wrong question, to me, the issue ought not be whether the source is the same, but whether the messages are true

After reflection, I don't agree -- which I find very interesting. Effectively, the two seem to be the same question, but which one is asked makes a difference.

Whence came Joseph Smith's revelations? If from God, then we have no worries. Even if something the Prophet revealed appears to be wrong, we can be sure it is not. Maybe our background understanding is deficient, or maybe our language is too weak, or whatever. We can truly have absolute confidence.

By the same token, if Joseph's revelations came from another source, they are not reliable, even if they happen to be true or accurate. If Joseph generated the insights himself, then however brilliant they might have been, they are just the products of human reason. And if the source was nefarious...as Shakespeare taught us, the devil can cite scripture for his purposes.

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40 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I don't buy into near death experiences too much. I will believe dreams and visions before NDE.

Glad to find things you and I can agree on - however I do not see much difference with dreams and visions and NDE.  Except that in scripture I do not recall any references to NDE - but I realize that there have been prophets of our time that have shared a NDE or kind of a NDE experience as well as dreams and visions.

 

The Traveler

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20 hours ago, Traveler said:

I am not one to give a lot of credence to near death experiences.  I believe there is a very important and critical difference between a near death and actual death experience.  I am not saying that revelation cannot or does not come from a near death experience - just that anyone willing to publish personal things openly to the public - especially for money and/or fame is likely either throwing pearls before swine or casting fake pearls before the gullible.   Of course there are always exceptions but personal revelation is intended mostly to be personal.  I am just suggesting an abundant careful attitude of skepticism coupled with a willingness to the unlikely possibility of discovering some new insight. 

 

The Traveler

In the specific case of Howard Storm Ph. D. it is interesting that he felt led by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to retire as

Head of the Art Department at his university....... go back to school..... and become a theologian.  

 

His wife was so angry at him for doing that .... that she divorced him.  Even at this time he is asking himself if he should 

leave the church he is in..... .and become Roman Catholic..... due to the fact that the Catholic church recognizes near death experience 

accounts at a similar level to how Latter Day Saints do.........

These are the actions of somebody who considers his experience to be similar to II Corinthians 12:2-4.  

 

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

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21 hours ago, wenglund said:

Speaking of asking the wrong question, to me, the issue ought not be whether the source is the same, but whether the messages are true--i.e. of value in progressing during this life and the next as God desires. And, the answer can be found by applying Moroni 10 and Alma 32.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

Good point.......  that is implied...... but I wanted to approach the topic in a manner that would be more likely to get us thinking......... and responding with some more enthusiasm to the topic.  

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21 hours ago, Vort said:

After reflection, I don't agree -- which I find very interesting. Effectively, the two seem to be the same question, but which one is asked makes a difference.

Whence came Joseph Smith's revelations? If from God, then we have no worries. Even if something the Prophet revealed appears to be wrong, we can be sure it is not. Maybe our background understanding is deficient, or maybe our language is too weak, or whatever. We can truly have absolute confidence.

By the same token, if Joseph's revelations came from another source, they are not reliable, even if they happen to be true or accurate. If Joseph generated the insights himself, then however brilliant they might have been, they are just the products of human reason. And if the source was nefarious...as Shakespeare taught us, the devil can cite scripture for his purposes.

Good questions....... for my part........ it just does not impress me as logical that the Devil would show the following to 

Howard STorm:

 

 

Howard Storm Ph. D . :

"I asked how God could let the Holocaust of World War II happen. We were transported to a railway station as a long train of freight cars was being unloaded of its human cargo. The guards were screaming and beating the people into submission. The people were Jewish men, women, and children. Exhausted from hunger and thirst, they were totally disoriented from the ordeal of being rounded up and sent on a long journey to an unknown destination. They believed that they were going to work camps, and that their submission to the brutality of the guards was the only way to survive.

We went to the area where the selection process was taking place and heard the guards talking about "the Angel Maker." We went to the place the guards were referring to as "the Angel Maker," which was a series of ovens. I saw piles of naked corpses being loaded into the ovens, and I began to cry. Jesus said to me, "These are the people God loves." Then he said, "Look up." Rising out of the smoke of the chimneys, I saw hundreds of people being met by thousands of angels taking them up into the sky. There was great joy in the faces of the people, and there appeared to be no trace of a memory of the horrendous suffering they had just endured. How ironic that the guards sarcastically called the ovens "the Angel Maker."

I asked how God could allow this to happen. They told me that this was not God's will. This was an abomination to God. God wants this never to happen again. This was the sacrifice of an innocent people to whom God had given the law to be an example, a light, to the rest of the world. This Holocaust was breaking God's heart. The anguish that Jesus was suffering at the slaughter of his people was too much for me to bear and I begged that we leave this place. I will never forget this: his anguish at this horror and what it represents. This was one of the low points in human history."

I asked, Why does God let things like this happen? They told me that God was very unhappy with the course of human history and was going to intervene to change the world. God had watched us sink to depths of depravity and cruelty at the very time that he was giving us the instruments to make the world a godlier world. God had intervened in the world many times before, but this time God was going to change the course of human events." (Howard Storm, My Descent Into Death, page 42,43)
Edited by DennisTate
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12 minutes ago, DennisTate said:

In the specific case of Howard Storm Ph. D. it is interesting that he felt led by Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to retire as

Head of the Art Department at his university....... go back to school..... and become a theologian.  

 

His wife was so angry at him for doing that .... that she divorced him.  Even at this time he is asking himself if he should 

leave the church he is in..... .and become Roman Catholic..... due to the fact that the Catholic church recognizes near death experience 

accounts at a similar level to how Latter Day Saints do.........

These are the actions of somebody who considers his experience to be similar to II Corinthians 12:2-4.  

 

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I have had a near death experience - They are not at all, at least for me, what many make it out to be.  But I will say this - if something is of G-d it will not come by a singular experience.  I would reference Genesis 41:23

Quote

32 And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

G-d will always provide more than one witness to what he makes known - usually many witnesses including empirical witnesses.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/17/2018 at 1:22 PM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I listened to this interview and I find it interesting that the interviewer keeps asking the wrong questions. e.g. How can a loving god punish people? etc.

I think there is a lot of truth in Howard's responses.

This interview was awesome......... 

Even before finishing it I shared it in three other places online.  

Howard Storm Ph. D" "It's way more complex than either the universalists or the fundamentalists think..... I think they have tried to make it so simple..... that's all they can handle but it's way more complicated than that."

Spoken at 1:11:40 or so in this exceptional audio interview......

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2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I have had a near death experience - They are not at all, at least for me, what many make it out to be.  But I will say this - if something is of G-d it will not come by a singular experience.  I would reference Genesis 41:23

G-d will always provide more than one witness to what he makes known - usually many witnesses including empirical witnesses.

 

The Traveler

A good friend from my old church from way back in the 1980's told me last week that he had a brush with death

about three months ago.  His was kind of simple....... blackness........ great Shalom....... and he was amazed that he just didn't care about the 

things going on on planet earth any more!  That really struck him as being surprising........ because he is so used to be very wrapped up in 

all that is going on in his life..... .and even in world events.  

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3 hours ago, DennisTate said:

A good friend from my old church from way back in the 1980's told me last week that he had a brush with death

about three months ago.  His was kind of simple....... blackness........ great Shalom....... and he was amazed that he just didn't care about the 

things going on on planet earth any more!  That really struck him as being surprising........ because he is so used to be very wrapped up in 

all that is going on in his life..... .and even in world events.  

One of your quotes from a previous post -

Quote

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

One of the great lesions I have learned in life - the less someone knows about something the more they love to speculate about it and hear and join with others in speculation.

 

The Traveler

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On 8/16/2018 at 7:13 PM, DennisTate said:

I would like to do a poll..... .I think I know the answer already but I personally have similar reasons for

altering my life radically after reading many near death experience accounts.  I am going to use former ATheist Howard Storm Ph. D.

as our example because I truly was blown away by his book..... My Descent Into Death. 

 

Would you say that former Atheist Howard Storm Ph. D. received his astounding information from the same source as 

Prophet Joseph Smith?

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/10/gods-compelling-witness-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

There are many ways truth can be revealed, discovered, interpreted, etc., whether secularly, spiritually and religiously. The unique thing about Joseph Smith is that he was given the priesthood keys including the keys of revelation. There are many ways that the truth we hold to, no matter how we got it, can propel us to come to Jesus. But again, the unique thing about Joseph Smith is that he was given the keys that bring us into the Father's presence through Christ, beginning with the keys that give us the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost after baptism.

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

One of your quotes from a previous post -

 

One of the great lesions I have learned in life - the less someone knows about something the more they love to speculate about it and hear and join with others in speculation.

 

The Traveler

True.... I read both versions of Heaven is For Real...and saw the movie.  I believe that Pastor Todd Burpo did a really good job of listening to his young son...... and admitting that his son was correct........ and that he personally had to listen to his son who could speak about heaven with AUTHORITY....... whereas all that he could do even with his pastor training..............  was quote the ideas of others...... including the Bible.  

 

 

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18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

There are many ways truth can be revealed, discovered, interpreted, etc., whether secularly, spiritually and religiously. The unique thing about Joseph Smith is that he was given the priesthood keys including the keys of revelation. There are many ways that the truth we hold to, no matter how we got it, can propel us to come to Jesus. But again, the unique thing about Joseph Smith is that he was given the keys that bring us into the Father's presence through Christ, beginning with the keys that give us the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost after baptism.

You got me interested in taking a look at D&C:

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/2?lang=eng

 

Quote

 

1, Elijah is to reveal the priesthood; 2–3, The promises of the fathers are planted in the hearts of the children.

1 Behold, I will reveal unto you the Priesthood, by the hand of Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

2 And he shall plant in the hearts of the children the promises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers.

3 If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.

 

This sure does remind me of what Howard Storm Ph. D. wrote that I quote in posts #2 and #6 above....

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2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Joesph Smith Jr was so unique that the only person you can compare him to is Mohammed. 

It is intriguing that you mention this because I do know of an ancient Islamic prediction that fits perfectly with Isaiah 35

that could play a huge role in positively altering the world economy.  

 

Quote

Book 005, Number 2208:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour will not come before wealth becomes abundant and overflowing, so much so that a man takes Zakat out of his property and cannot find anyone to accept it from him and till the land of Arabia becomes meadows and rivers.
SAHIH MUSLIM, BOOK 25: The Book on General Behaviour (Kitab Al-Adab)

 

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