Fether

Question about the Jewish image of the Messiah

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1 minute ago, anatess2 said:

Meh.  Old argument.  Too much history.  You hate Trump.  I like Trump.  Done.  Trump is President.  Move on.  Let history God judge whether you're right or wrong in your vitriol against some of his supporters.   

FIFY. ;)  And let God also judge us, if we allow ourselves to become like Trump or justify ourselves in doing some of the things Trump does.

Or if 100 years from now people will be trying to erase him from history like they're trying to do to Jefferson, that disgusting slave owner adulterer.

If America, with its current geographical boundaries, still exists at all a hundred years from now; it won’t be as a democratic republic with constitutionally-protected individual liberties.  And that will be due to social cleavages and divine judgments that Trump (among many, many others) helped to unleash.  

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20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

But of course, neither of their elections represented instances of the country deliberately selecting individuals they knew to be wicked.  Trump’s did; and as such, it represents a far more dangerous bellwether for the country.

giphy.gif

Apropos of nothing except my own "Squirrel!" reaction:

A "wether" is a castrated ram. It's important to note that the lamb first grows to adulthood, then is castrated. In this way, the ram acquires its normal adult size and its proclivities to lead and protect the flock, but loses much of its aggression and (obviously) doesn't mate with the ewes. It thus makes a pretty good protector for the other sheep without introducing other distracting elements.

In medieval times (perhaps today, too), sheepherders would put a bell around the neck of the flock's wether. The bell perhaps allowed the flock to more easily distinguish its leader, and also allowed the shepherd to be able to ascertain the flock's position, especially if the wether started running around, as when it was protecting the flock. Thus derives our usage of "bellwether" to mean something that indicates trends or imminent conditions.

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3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

 if we allow ourselves to become like Trump.

And here again is the monster painting.  You make Trump into a caricature of himself.  Become like Trump, how?  Surely you don't believe Trump is nothing more than his dallies-with-a-porn-star image?  I read somewhere that there are 67 or so songs written about being like Trump before 2015.  I'm sure they're not all about wanting to be dallying with porn stars.  I know at least of them is about being wealthy like Trump, fighting against all odds and succeeding like Trump, being an enterpreneur like Trump.

 

3 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

If America, with its current geographical boundaries, still exists at all a hundred years from now; it won’t be as a democratic republic with constitutionally-protected individual liberties.  And that will be due to social cleavages and divine judgments that Trump (among many, many others) helped to unleash.  

Right now dude, all your past Presidents of my living memory have eroded your constitutionally-protected individual liberties.  Reagan, the poster boy, helped legalize abortion and open your borders.  And that's not even counting the drain of sovereignty of other nations that your Presidents have put their hands in. Trump is about the only one so far that is stemming the drain. You can close your eyes to that fact.  It's your country. 

 

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20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

There are no such considerations for Duterte; there’s just the fact that you, personally, like what he’s doing.

I wish we had the luxury of just putting Presidents in because of what we "personally like".  Such a stupid statement this.  But I forgive it as it comes from a luxurious air-conditioned American house where poverty simply means homeless people pooping in the streets of San Francisco.

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Reagan, the poster boy, helped legalize abortion and open your borders.

?????

Roe v. Wade, 1973

Reagan, 1981-1989

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8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Governor of California - insert dates here.

I guess my ignorance of history is showing. What did Reagan do as CA governor that forwarded abortion? You mean his signing the "liberalized" California abortion bill? By today's standard, that would be conservative indeed, allowing as it did abortion in cases where a doctor determined that the pregnancy endangered the mother's life. I suspect (though don't know, because I'm no historian) that Reagan viewed the abortion bill as a fait accompli and signed in order to preclude other, more ominous, possibilities. Reagan himself was quite anti-abortion.

Edited by Vort

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

I guess my ignorance of history is showing. What did Reagan do as CA governor that forwarded abortion? You mean his signing the "liberalized" California abortion bill? By today's standard, that would be conservative indeed, allowing as it did abortion in cases where a doctor determined that the pregnancy endangered the mother's life. I suspect (though don't know, because I'm no historian) that Reagan viewed the abortion bill as a fait accompli and signed in order to preclude other, more ominous, possibilities. Reagan himself was quite anti-abortion.

The inch that started the mile.  Same as his amnesty.  Abortions in California exploded from very rare to common after the bill's passage with doctors prescribing abortion in the same manner as birth control to unplanned pregnancies citing compromised mental health.

The point of the exercise is JAG's claim that paving the way to "social cleavages" is a Trump thing.

Edited by anatess2

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On 8/23/2018 at 11:46 AM, anatess2 said:

[1]And here again is the monster painting.  You make Trump into a caricature of himself.  Become like Trump, how?  Surely you don't believe Trump is nothing more than his dallies-with-a-porn-star image?  I read somewhere that there are 67 or so songs written about being like Trump before 2015.  I'm sure they're not all about wanting to be dallying with porn stars.  I know at least of them is about being wealthy like Trump, fighting against all odds and succeeding like Trump, being an enterpreneur like Trump.

 

[2]Right now dude, all your past Presidents of my living memory have eroded your constitutionally-protected individual liberties.  Reagan, the poster boy, helped legalize abortion and open your borders.  And that's not even counting the drain of sovereignty of other nations that your Presidents have put their hands in. Trump is about the only one so far that is stemming the drain. You can close your eyes to that fact.  It's your country. 

 

1.  It’s not a matter of caricatures; it’s a matter of Trump not meeting specific, scripturally-denoted criteria.  

2.  “Right now, dude, all of your past kings of my living memory have eroded your covenant-protected individual liberties.  Josiah, the poster boy, actually lost a battle.  And that’s not even counting the drain of sovereignty of other nations that your kings have put their hands in.  Zedekiah is about the only one so far that is stemming the drain.”

On 8/23/2018 at 11:51 AM, anatess2 said:

I wish we had the luxury of just putting Presidents in because of what we "personally like".  Such a stupid statement this.  But I forgive it as it comes from a luxurious air-conditioned American house where poverty simply means homeless people pooping in the streets of San Francisco.

It doesn’t take air conditioning, or money, to know that killing people without due process (or better yet, actually inciting mobs against them) is wrong.  This is the crux of yours, and general Trumpian, perverted thinking.  You think social virtue arises from social prosperity; when in truth, it’s just the opposite.  

There is one way in which America has been extraordinarily lucky; and that is that at certain pivotal moments in our history our forbears got (and had the good wisdom to follow) a Washington or a Lincoln, rather than a Caesar or a Marcos.  You bewail the  chaos that envelops your homeland and take an ends-justifies-the-means approach to ending the chaos (an approach you also seek to export to the USA), never stopping to ask where your country would be now if your forebears hadn’t settled for corrupt leadership fifty years ago.

On 8/23/2018 at 1:46 PM, anatess2 said:

The inch that started the mile.  Same as his amnesty.  Abortions in California exploded from very rare to common after the bill's passage with doctors prescribing abortion in the same manner as birth control to unplanned pregnancies citing compromised mental health.

The point of the exercise is JAG's claim that paving the way to "social cleavages" is a Trump thing.

In the cases of Reaganesque abortion and immigration legislation, the lion’s share of the damage to the social fabric came from progressives of their era who bold-faced lied about what they were planning and what their long-term goals were.  But in your parlance, Anatess, they weren’t immoral.  They were “smart”, for exploiting—not Reagan's idealism—but his pragmatism.  

Ironically, you started in this thread ragging on Shapiro for being too ideological; and now you're ragging on Reagan for having been too pragmatic.  There seems to be no fixed guiding star in your politics except that “strength” (in the most brutal, violent, exploitive, machismo sense of the word) is worthy of adulation.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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On 8/21/2018 at 11:04 AM, anatess2 said:

Shapiro belongs on the public square where he can argue ideology all day long.

Either you don't really know Shapiro or you don't know the meaning of "ideologue".

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On 9/2/2018 at 1:39 PM, Carborendum said:

Either you don't really know Shapiro or you don't know the meaning of "ideologue".

Oh, I know Shapiro very well... I mean, not personally, of course.  I'm subscribed to his channel.

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24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Oh, I know Shapiro very well... I mean, not personally, of course.  I'm subscribed to his channel.

Then you will know that he has given in on several issues.  And he has said MULTIPLE times that there are some good arguments on other sides of an issue that he stands firm on.

To me standing with your convictions do not rise to the level of "ideologue" when used as an epithet as you did.  To be an ideologue in that sense, one must not be willing to see the other side of the argument at all, no matter how reasonable the arguments may be.  He obviously does see them AND acknowledges them.  He simply has either counters to the arguments or has more and better arguments on his side.

At least two videos he that I've seen, he has spoken with a liberal (who really was an ideologue) and said, "And that is a valid concern.  So, if you want to sit down and talk about that, I'm willing to discuss ways to deal with that."  Or a similar statement.

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Then you will know that he has given in on several issues.  And he has said MULTIPLE times that there are some good arguments on other sides of an issue that he stands firm on.

To me standing with your convictions do not rise to the level of "ideologue" when used as an epithet as you did.  To be an ideologue in that sense, one must not be willing to see the other side of the argument at all, no matter how reasonable the arguments may be.  He obviously does see them AND acknowledges them.  He simply has either counters to the arguments or has more and better arguments on his side.

At least two videos he that I've seen, he has spoken with a liberal (who really was an ideologue) and said, "And that is a valid concern.  So, if you want to sit down and talk about that, I'm willing to discuss ways to deal with that."  Or a similar statement.

Shapiro is an ideologue.. Rush Limbaugh is an ideologue... Cenk Uygur is an ideologue.  These people make decisions based on ideology - doesn't matter how flexible they are on that ideology - and not practicality.  They would make for bad head of states.  But they make for good public square debaters... which is exactly what you just said - makes or counters arguments.  Those types of people are good at TALKING but would have a difficult time with DOING.

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2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Shapiro is an ideologue.. Rush Limbaugh is an ideologue... Cenk Uygur is an ideologue.  These people make decisions based on ideology - doesn't matter how flexible they are on that ideology - and not practicality.  They would make for bad head of states.  But they make for good public square debaters... which is exactly what you just said - makes or counters arguments.  Those types of people are good at TALKING but would have a difficult time with DOING.

If that's how you are defining ideologue, then I'd certainly hope for an ideologue as president.

If you're not talking about acceptance of the calud arguments and willingness to discuss, then I don't see a down side to an ideologue.

But I would agree that Ben wouldn't make a good president.  Not because of ideology, but his people skills.

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1 minute ago, Carborendum said:

If that's how you are defining ideologue, then I'd certainly hope for an ideologue as president.

If you're not talking about acceptance of the calud arguments and willingness to discuss, then I don't see a down side to an ideologue.

But I would agree that Ben wouldn't make a good president.  Not because of ideology, but his people skills.

I gave an example above of Marco Rubio and the pitfalls of ideologues as Head of States.  Justin Trudeau is the current POSTER CHILD of this pitfall.

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15 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I gave an example above of Marco Rubio and the pitfalls of ideologues as Head of States.  Justin Trudeau is the current POSTER CHILD of this pitfall.

I'm in the airport on a cellphone. So forgive me if I can't look that up right now.  But here's the bottom line ALL PROPHETS ARE IDEOLOGUES.  They have to be.

The so called pitfalls come because the ideology is messed up, not the dedication to principles that we truly believe in.

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Just now, Carborendum said:

I'm in the airport on a cellphone. So forgive me if I can't look that up right now.  But here's the bottom line ALL PROPHETS ARE IDEOLOGUES.  They have to be.

The so called pitfalls come because the ideology is messed up, not the dedication to principles that we truly believe in.

That's probably the reason why God did not see it fit for Joseph Smith to be elected President.

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By your definition. Ideologues:

George Washington.

Thomas Jefferson

Abraham Lincoln

Winston Churchill

Margaret Thatcher 

William Wallace ( the myth anyway)

 

Again, it's not being an IDEOLOGUES that is bad. It's an ideologue who subscribes to a highly flawed ideology:

Cough.  Hitler.

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3 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

By your definition. Ideologues:

George Washington.

 

<snip>

Again, it's not being an IDEOLOGUES that is bad. It's an ideologue who subscribes to a highly flawed ideology:

Cough.  Hitler.

Let's address these two to make it simple.

They were not just mere ideologues.  I will give you specific evidence:

George Washington (you can add Jefferson to this) - bedrock principles on liberty.  He owned slaves.  He knew slavery is anti-thesis to liberty but he did not free his slaves, rather, he tried to compensate them and treated them like family.  He later acknowledged that he doesn't understand why this did not work - why his slaves still desired to escape the plantation.  So you could consider this a failure of practical application.

Hitler - it would have been better if Hitler would have just been an ideologue.  Unfortunately, he is not an ideologue.  He is a very effective executive in quest for power.  He, therefore, attached himself to the ideology of National Socialism to get there.  

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Just adding my two cents in here..... not wanting to argue politics, but just want my voice out there.

 Anyone who had any knowledge of Trump at all, knew he was a businessman not a politician. I didn't like the man from what I knew of him, he has a lot of flaws and I thought he was a pr--- , but yet I voted for him because I thought he was a better choice than Clinton..... a much better choice. 

I still think he's a pig. But a patriotic pig. A pig who loves his country and wants the best for this nation. He still has flaws, but flaws and all - he is doing what he can to help this country.

I think we should keep him.

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On 9/7/2018 at 8:02 PM, Lindy said:

Just adding my two cents in here..... not wanting to argue politics, but just want my voice out there.

 Anyone who had any knowledge of Trump at all, knew he was a businessman not a politician. I didn't like the man from what I knew of him, he has a lot of flaws and I thought he was a pr--- , but yet I voted for him because I thought he was a better choice than Clinton..... a much better choice. 

I still think he's a pig. But a patriotic pig. A pig who loves his country and wants the best for this nation. He still has flaws, but flaws and all - he is doing what he can to help this country.

I think we should keep him.

I love your reaction and explanation for how you voted!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely love it!!!!!!!

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