No really, vaccines good things, anti-vac is growing more and more deadly.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

Or it may help them in the future.  The likelihood of it helping vs. not is significantly higher.  You putting faith in your daughter or her husband is not faith, it is fantasy.  she and he will make decisions growing up.  Some might be bad.  You cannot stop bad decisions.  You can arm your kids with knowledge, but it is ultimately up to them to utilize that knowledge.

So yes, it may hurt them badly, but the odds are far higher that they will be hurt by not getting it.

Yeah, I prefer the “arm with knowledge” approach.  There will be *plenty* of opportunities to discuss the issue between age 11 (when the medical community wants her to get the shot) and marriage, or even when a child starts middle school.  

(I come at this from the perspective of someone whose formerly-healthy wife was given a “safe” birth control shot right before marriage, and immediately began menstruating for what turned out to be the next two years.  I’m not anti-vaccination in principle, but I look at individual shots with some degree of trepidation and I’m not wild about giving my daughter an extra shot just because some “experts” in the medical community think it would be a perfectly normal thing for her to start having sex at eleven.)

By the way—anyone ever notice that we expect kids to perfectly toe the line in matters of political correctness/racism/tolerance/bullying; but then when it comes to sex we just sort of accept that the little dears are going to do what they’re going to do?

I say hogwash.  Individual cases will vary, of course; and kids obviously have to find their own paths.  But as a general trend, kids’ standards of conduct are going to align pretty closely with those of their parents. If something’s not a priority to a parent and therefore isn’t conveyed to the kid, odds are it won’t be a priority to the kid either.  Hence, the sexual revolution.  

Edited August 22, 2018 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

2 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

Primarily, it is transmitted through sexual contact, though not exclusively. It is not the sole cause of cervical cancer.

However, considering that less than 5% of Americans wait until marriage to have sexual intercourse - even fewer to have sexual contact - and that over 60% of humans carry at least one strain of HPV, it strikes me as somewhat futile to attempt to protect our daughters by preaching abstinence.

"Less than 5% of Americans" is not a useful statistic when we're talking about LDS girls. What percentage of American girls are virgins until marriage? What percentage of LDS girls? Of those LDS women who are not virgins at marriage, how many had sex only with one man, who was himself a virgin (or had very little sexual experience)?

Are there drawbacks to the HPV vaccine? I went to the NCBI website and was disappointed (but not exactly shocked) to find this paper that reads much more like a cheerleader flyer than an actual peer-reviewed paper. Perhaps there are no significant drawbacks, but the Goodthink attitude makes me suspicious.

At the very least, the vaccination might give a rebellious-minded teen the impression that she was expected to be fornicating, which could act as a green light. And don't dismiss this out of hand; most parents know that this sort of thing is real. That may not be reason enough to keep your daughter from the vaccine, but then again, maybe it is. Chastity is not an incidental thing. Many of us think that chastity is greatly undervalued, and some might well think that refusing to give one's daughter an implicit okay for fornication is worth the risk.

In the end, perhaps it should be the daughter's choice. Maybe this is the American female version of circumcision. Let your son determine whether he wants to subject himself to cutting off part of his penis when he's old enough to make the choice himself; similarly, let your daughter decide whether she wants to get vaccinated for HPV when she's old enough that such a question might have meaning for her.

Speaking strictly for myself: If I am convinced that there is no significant danger posed by the HPV vaccine, then why wouldn't I give it to my daughter (and sons)? But that assumes I'm convinced there is no downside; others may have different opinions, and I'm not going to dismiss their concerns out of hand.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Vort

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

"Less than 5% of Americans" is not a useful statistic when we're talking about LDS girls.

I posit that it is a completely useless statistic when we're talking about "my child".

[Midwest LDS]

I'm extremely pro-vaccine. As a history teacher, I could fill hundreds of threads discussing the horrors of life pre-vaccines (parents losing half or more of their children under the age of 10, permanent paralysis for kids who were just playing outside and caught polio, etc.) But I'm not sure why some are arguing that our children are absolutely going to break the law of chastity. I don't consider myself particularly special or worthy, but my wife and I managed to avoid sleeping with each other until our wedding day. I'm not necessarily opposed to the HPV vaccine, I'll do some more research when my daughter is older, but I fully expect her to be able to wait till her wedding night, just like my mom expected of me.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Midwest LDS said:

I'm extremely pro-vaccine. As a history teacher, I could fill hundreds of threads discussing the horrors of life pre-vaccines

Life expectancy was skewed because of high infant mortality rates-lots of kids died from diphtheria, yellow fever, measles, polio. You know, things that we can easily control if more people vaccinated their kids. 

[Midwest LDS]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Life expectancy was skewed because of high infant mortality rates-lots of kids died from diphtheria, yellow fever, measles, polio. You know, things that we can easily control if more people vaccinated their kids. 

Exactly, vaccines have saved more lives than just about any other medical advance in history.

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Midwest LDS said:

Exactly, vaccines have saved more lives than just about any other medical advance in history.

Yup. Couldn't agree more.  It saddens me how many otherwise sensible people don't understand this. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by MormonGator

[Midwest LDS]

2 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Yup. Couldn't agree more.  It saddens me how many otherwise sensible people don't understand this. 

Yeah, because of my studies this is one area where I really can't understand the opposing viewpoint. 

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, Midwest LDS said:

Yeah, because of my studies this is one area where I really can't understand the opposing viewpoint. 

Preach my brother. Preach. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Too many big words, and not nearly snarky enough.  I prefer pictures.

 

 

 

The first two were pretty good.  But that chicken is obviously autistic.  That's proof positive that you're wrong.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Vort said:

"Less than 5% of Americans" is not a useful statistic when we're talking about LDS girls. What percentage of American girls are virgins until marriage? What percentage of LDS girls? Of those LDS women who are not virgins at marriage, how many had sex only with one man, who was himself a virgin (or had very little sexual experience)?

Are there drawbacks to the HPV vaccine? I went to the NCBI website and was disappointed (but not exactly shocked) to find this paper that reads much more like a cheerleader flyer than an actual peer-reviewed paper. Perhaps there are no significant drawbacks, but the Goodthink attitude makes me suspicious.

At the very least, the vaccination might give a rebellious-minded teen the impression that she was expected to be fornicating, which could act as a green light. And don't dismiss this out of hand; most parents know that this sort of thing is real. That may not be reason enough to keep your daughter from the vaccine, but then again, maybe it is. Chastity is not an incidental thing. Many of us think that chastity is greatly undervalued, and some might well think that refusing to give one's daughter an implicit okay for fornication is worth the risk.

In the end, perhaps it should be the daughter's choice. Maybe this is the American female version of circumcision. Let your son determine whether he wants to subject himself to cutting off part of his penis when he's old enough to make the choice himself; similarly, let your daughter decide whether she wants to get vaccinated for HPV when she's old enough that such a question might have meaning for her.

Speaking strictly for myself: If I am convinced that there is no significant danger posed by the HPV vaccine, then why wouldn't I give it to my daughter (and sons)? But that assumes I'm convinced there is no downside; others may have different opinions, and I'm not going to dismiss their concerns out of hand.

You're talking about the Return of the Archons.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Scott said:

There are plenty of statistics that show that vaccines work:

http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p4037.pdf

Seriously, how many polio or small pox cases are there in the US compared to that of the past?  

Smallpox before vaccines:

Polio before vaccines:

19 hours ago, MarginOfError said:

I'm a professional statistician. I have reviewed countless studies on vaccination. While there may not be one single data set available regarding the efficacy of vaccines, we do have thousands of peer reviewed studies that overwhelmingly support the use of vaccines. 

Thanks for the stats.  But I was talking specifically about the current situation in Europe.

Yes, I know that Polio and Smallpox have a pretty good record.  And I'm sure there are some more that have a pretty good record.  But I am not so sure about all of them.  The last I heard the Germans won't do a particular immunization anymore because they had too many cases of side effects that were almost as bad as the disease.  I could be remembering wrong, but I believe it was pertussis or diptheria.  I can't remember.

When I was young, I never got sick.  Even living in 3rd world conditions, I never got sick.  In the middle of Jr. High school, I was required to get some immunizations to continue attending school.  I got sick for a week after that.  And I've had a cold or flu at least a few times every year since then.  That may seem normal.  But coming from zero incidents to a few every year...  It just makes me wonder.  Yes, I'm aware that could also be explained by other causes as well.  And it may be.  But it still makes me wonder.

For the record, I have gotten immunizations for my kids.  But not all of them.  I try to look at every disease and vaccination.  Then I weigh the risks.  They have polio.  I don't remember if they had smallpox or not because it was eradicated and no longer required.  I can't remember them all.  But we considered each one separately and made a decision.

So making fun of people like me for not getting polio vaccines kinda misses the mark.

[Vort]

10 hours ago, Lost Boy said:

We foot the bill for all sorts of poor behavior.  If we as a people didn't have poor behavior, there would be little need for a police force, for prisons, for a military, for attorneys. 

And then there are poor diet issues that lead to obesity, cancer, heart disease, liver failure, kidney failure.

Poor sexual decisions is just another thing to add to the list.  LDS people tend to focus more on it because it is quite important to us.  But it isn't to 95% of the population.

So unfortunately we get to pay for all sorts of bad behavior that we don't engage in.

When the bill is money, that's one thing. When the bill is an otherwise unnecessary medical procedure, that is entirely another.

[VelvetShadow]

In Australia if you don't vaccinate your kids, you can't enrol them in any childcare or school.  And if you are on government benefits and refuse to vaccinate your kids, they cut your benefits down.

 

[SpiritDragon]

56 minutes ago, VelvetShadow said:

In Australia if you don't vaccinate your kids, you can't enrol them in any childcare or school.  And if you are on government benefits and refuse to vaccinate your kids, they cut your benefits down.

 

Such a mercenary approach they've taken to force people into making medical choices against their will. I fear where this type of thinking stops... The medical scientists know what is best for most people, most of the time so let's just have them make decisions for EVERYONE and forget individual autonomy over treatment choice and certainly avoid pesky ethical ideas like informed consent. Let's just coerce everyone into getting the treatment we decide on against their will and penalize them financially so that only the independently wealthy have much chance at making their own decisions. What if this ideation spreads into other areas of medicine so that a heart disease patient simply must go on statins or calcium channel blockers or whatever treatment du jour or they aren't allowed to work. I think more than the fear of vaccines for many so-called anti-vaxxers is simply concern over loss of freedom to make important health choices for oneself and one's family. I have yet to meet the person who would honestly want all vaccinations to disappear and not even be an option. They just want to know that proper safety measures are being taken, that accountability is in place and that the treatment actually works. When something is considered 99.99% safe and effective it sounds pretty great, but everyone has different risk /reward cues and tolerances. Some might think that 99.99% sounds like a sure thing while others will look at it as playing russian roulette with a high-capacity cylinder. Some see the same thing with not vaccinating. Both are probably right to an extent. 

Other things to keep in mind are treatment choices. As many have talked about HPV is largely preventable by avoiding certain forms of physical contact. Some may prefer this method to a vaccine. Their is risk either way. On the one hand someone may opt to have sexual relations and become exposed to the strains of the virus that the vaccine may have protected against. On the other hand someone may be quite promiscuous figuring they've been vaccinated and not to worry and find out too late that they were among the percentage of those where the vaccine didn't create effective or lasting immunity (in which case their cancer will still likely just be considered to have come from another cause, because their record will show the vaccine history and HPV protection will likely be assumed). Other diseases like measles and chicken pox and the flu also have effective treatment and prevention possibilities such as sound nutrition and hygiene.

One real travesty is the lack of investigation into massive doses of vitamin C (ascorbic acid). A Dr. Fred Klenner had amazing results using doses far higher than those used in typical vitamin C trials. He has case reports of children recovering from Polio routinely with high enough doses and being able to make chicken pox dry up and measles go away predictably. Unfortunately, studies that have investigated these findings have either not been done or used much smaller doses that were insufficient to overcome the diseased state.

Edited August 23, 2018 by SpiritDragon

[VelvetShadow]

They are just trying to protect Australian children from diseases that vaccinations helped to get rid of in the first place.  The people still have a choice, if they choose not to vaccinate they can home school their kids and if they are on benefits and don't like the free money they get for doing nothing cut down, then they can get a job.

I thought the LDS church was pro-vaccinations 

Edited August 23, 2018 by VelvetShadow

[Guest Scott]

I'll do some more research when my daughter is older, but I fully expect her to be able to wait till her wedding night, just like my mom expected of me.

Agreed, but even if she does wait until until her wedding night, it doesn't mean her partner will.  

[NeuroTypical]

Full disclosure: We fill out the 'religious exemption' form at our kids' school.

Also full disclosure: Our kids are up to date on all their shots, we just don't give a flying wet slap about proving it to the school.

 

[NeuroTypical]

5 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

I thought the LDS church was pro-vaccinations 

I think the church just advocates seeking and following competent medical advice, and leaves it at that.  Our philanthropic arm sure is involved in bringing immunizations to poor countries.  https://www.ldscharities.org/what-we-do/immunization

But I don't know if the church has actually made any sort of official statement about immunizations.  I'm guessing for the same reason that it doesn't make official statements about the flat-earth theory, 9/11 being an inside job, or that breathing is good.  Most people already get it, and those who don't ain't about to be swayed by some church statement.

Edited August 23, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[unixknight]

18 hours ago, estradling75 said:

And like any parent you have to weight the risk of what "may happen"  if you do and what "may happen" if you don't.

Precisely why the parents should make the final call, not Government.

[anatess2]

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The first two were pretty good.  But that chicken is obviously autistic.  That's proof positive that you're wrong.

 

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You're talking about the Return of the Archons.

It always makes for an interesting forum day when @Carborendum becomes unrecognizable from @Vort. 

 

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

 

Agreed, but even if she does wait until until her wedding night, it doesn't mean her partner will.  

This kind of thinking is weird to me.  You gonna vaccinate your kid from HIV too?  How about <insert STD here>?

Might be easier to just get your future son-in-laws to fill out a health form before dating your daughter.  Or... I don't know... marry guys who are not sexually profligate.  I got 2 teens here that are more likely going to qualify.

Edited August 23, 2018 by anatess2

[SpiritDragon]

6 hours ago, VelvetShadow said:

They are just trying to protect Australian children from diseases that vaccinations helped to get rid of in the first place.  The people still have a choice, if they choose not to vaccinate they can home school their kids and if they are on benefits and don't like the free money they get for doing nothing cut down, then they can get a job.

I thought the LDS church was pro-vaccinations 

Yes the people still have a choice, but it is a greatly constrained choice. Not everyone has the means to simply homeschool children and not everyone receiving child tax benefits is an unemployed bum. The idea of punishing citizens for opting out of medical procedures completely undermines informed consent and self-determination. Honestly, how would you feel if the government started making all medical decisions for you and if you failed to comply you would be hit with severe financial penalties. It should be concerning to anyone regardless of there view on the treatment if they believe in a human's right to choose for themselves or those in their care.

Edit: I thought the Church was pro-agency

Edited August 23, 2018 by SpiritDragon

[estradling75]

42 minutes ago, unixknight said:

Precisely why the parents should make the final call, not Government.

I agree...  But I also realize many of those parents also think that paying the Lottery is a good idea.

So while I fully agree with letting the parents make the call we also need to have the correct (aka scientific) information practically in their face so they have to choose to ignore it

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

11 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You're talking about the Return of the Archons.

It always makes for an interesting forum day when @Carborendum becomes unrecognizable from @Vort. 

I thought Return of the Archons was a Star Trek episode.