NeuroTypical

No really, vaccines good things, anti-vac is growing more and more deadly.

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Death toll of European measles outbreak is now 47.  Around 41,000 people have it in happy modern-heathcare first-world Europe.  And it's because the ignorant and the misinformed think avoiding vaccinations is a good thing.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-45246049

People, stop.  The outbreak is at least double what it was last year.  Please don't be that guy who won't budge until he starts seeing lots of mainstream news stories like this before y'all will listen.

 

 

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@NeuroTypical, it's nice that you do this, and I agree with you 10,000%-but it's not going to do anything. If anything I see the anti-vaccine movement becoming more mainstream. Eventually when more children die of polio, measles, and other easily treatable diseases some people might wake up. Until then, we can do nothing but cringe. 

Edited by MormonGator

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Experts blame this surge in infections on a drop in the number of people being vaccinated.

Why is there no data on how many of the affected individuals were vaccinated or not?  At the very least look at those 47 dead?  Do we know that ALL of them were unvaccinated?

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17 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Do we know that ALL of them were unvaccinated?

Not specific to the European outbreak, but here: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html  It states the majority who get it are unvaccinated.

Here - learn about why a small number of unvaccinated folks in a community, can make life harder for everyone:   https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/work/protection/index.html

"Herd Immunity".  Learn it, love it.

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5 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

My old GF from college is an antivaxer...  She blames her kids autism on vaccines. I am glad she married someone else.  

 I broke up with a girl because she was an antivaxer as well. It was better for both of us. 

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9 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

My old GF from college is an antivaxer...  She blames her kids autism on vaccines. I am glad she married someone else.  

When trauma happens to loved ones we seek/demand answers.  Modern medicine has no answers to autism.  So parents latch on to whatever they can to explain the unexplained.

 

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8 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

When trauma happens to loved ones we seek/demand answers.  Modern medicine has no answers to autism.  So parents latch on to whatever they can to explain the unexplained.

 

Add to that a celebrity endorsement and you're off to the races...

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If anyone is looking for a good book, you can read Asperger's Children.  About how autism in general was identified and largely defined by a Nazi doctor (Hans Asperger), and just how the Nazi social ideals have shaped what we view as being autistic.  One of the things they talk about in the book is how a large portion of the recent explosion in the number of people with autism is at least in part caused by the the increasingly subjective nature of the diagnosis.

It's really an interesting  (and mildly disturbing) book.

And my sister is vehemently anti-vaccine.  One of the nicest people you'll ever meet.  She has some good points.  Though i am glad that most people - myself included - are vaccinated.

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21 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

When trauma happens to loved ones we seek/demand answers.  Modern medicine has no answers to autism.  So parents latch on to whatever they can to explain the unexplained.

 

This is always a good read.  Anti-vaxers will completely dismiss it.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Not specific to the European outbreak, but here: https://www.cdc.gov/measles/cases-outbreaks.html  It states the majority who get it are unvaccinated.

Here - learn about why a small number of unvaccinated folks in a community, can make life harder for everyone:   https://www.vaccines.gov/basics/work/protection/index.html

"Herd Immunity".  Learn it, love it.

I'm well aware of the herd immunity phenomenon.  I'm just bothered by the fact that the statistics regarding this are not sufficient to really make an informed decision, and yet, just enough to jump to conclusions.  Whether those conclusions are right or wrong, we may never know because we simply don't have the complete set of stats to find out.  It sounds too much like global warming.

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13 minutes ago, Lost Boy said:

This is always a good read.  Anti-vaxers will completely dismiss it.

https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

 

Anyone who is really anti-vaccine should spend five minutes talking to someone in an iron lung. 

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Anyone who is really anti-vaccine should spend five minutes talking to someone in an iron lung. 

I wouldn't be so quick to say that.  I volunteered in a hospital for a while.  And one chronic patient was one who had all kinds of respiratory problems because of bad reaction to vaccines.

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I wouldn't be so quick to say that.  I volunteered in a hospital for a while.  And one chronic patient was one who had all kinds of respiratory problems because of bad reaction to vaccines.

You know I got mad love for you @Carborendum, so lets just agree to disagree on this one.  

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

You know I got mad love for you @Carborendum, so lets just agree to disagree on this one.  

Let me state for the record that I'm not anti-vaccines.  I'm just not convinced either way based on available data.  What bothers me about the entire argument (on both sides really) is:

1) The lack of a reasonably full set of data.

2) The lack of people asking the right questions.

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

And one chronic patient was one who had all kinds of respiratory problems because of bad reaction to vaccines.

And there is the other side of the issue.  People are different, unique.  What works for 95% (or even 99%) can have adverse reactions to the other 5% (or even 1%).

Clearly it is still in the general public good to do it... but bad things can happen.  Things that are statistically unlikely isn't much comfort when you (or your loved one) becomes a statistic 

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56 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

And there is the other side of the issue.  People are different, unique.  What works for 95% (or even 99%) can have adverse reactions to the other 5% (or even 1%).

Clearly it is still in the general public good to do it... but bad things can happen.  Things that are statistically unlikely isn't much comfort when you (or your loved one) becomes a statistic 

I wouldn't discount that either.  But what are the statistics?  I have never seen them.  Take this case in Europe for instance.

You have an influx of refugees from foreign countries.  No doubt (???) they were the ones who brought measles with them.  But no one knows who patient zero was.  I'd also bet that the "majority of those who were ill were unvaccinated" meant that the majority were from foreign countries.  What about the native Europeans (from the first world countries)?  How many of those who natives were vaccinated?  About 90%?  How many native Europeans in general get vaccinations?  90%?  Oh.  Did the vaccines do any good then?

That is just as easily a correct statistic.  But we'll never know because we simply don't have that data.  Why don't we have that data?  Because no one asks the question.

Did you know that the main reason why doctors say that smoking causes heart conditions is because it was found that (at some point in history) 40% of those who had heart conditions were smokers.  Well, how many Americans in general were smokers?  40%.  Oh.  So, is smoking really a factor in heart disease?

It's really easy to pin it on smoking because everyone knows nicotine is a stimulant and stimulants cause heart disease... blah blah.  And smoking is known to be unhealthy for a slew of other reasons.  But look at those numbers.  It would seem like there isn't a relationship.

Same with vaccines.  We see conditions where reason would tell us that vaccines are helping and non-vaccinated are hurting.  But look at the numbers.  Oh, wait, there aren't any.

Edited by Guest

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2 hours ago, SilentOne said:

[james veitch video]

This guy is seriously funny. :)  I've seen this video at least 3 times and it's still funny.

Edited by zil

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6 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Any thoughts on the HPV vaccine? Yes or no for your teenagers?

Only with parental approval, even though I'd certainly do it for my child. I'm as pro vaccine as they come, but part of being consistent is allowing people to make choices (even for their children) that I don't personally approve of. 

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