the physical and spiritual Earth


theplains
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Page 28 says, "The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind
."

Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

Since the earth was created spiritually first, why did Jesus supposedly have to go somewhere where there was
space to make a physical earth?  Did the spiritual earth and physical earth occupy two separate spaces so there
would be enough space to create the physical version?

What about being created physically allowed the animals to procreate before the Fall?

The next paragraph continues as "Now the earth was ready for the greatest creation of all - mankind. Our spirits
would be given bodies of flesh and blood so they could live on earth
."

Why did mankind need bodies of flesh and blood to live on earth when Adam and Eve were already living in the
Garden of Eden without blood in their veins before the Fall? 

Thanks,
Jim

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

 Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

D&C 1321:7-8 reads

“7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.”

matter takes up space so I would assume so. Perhaps spiritual exists in a separate dimension or perhaps there is some principle of matter specific to spiritual that makes it able to coexist with physical matter.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Since the earth was created spiritually first, why did Jesus supposedly have to go somewhere where there was
space to make a physical earth? 

Perhaps the spiritual creation was more of a design, like molding for a ring.

Or perhaps like I mentioned above, spiritual matter does take up space and he had to go somewhere where it already existed in some form of chaos so he could organize it.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Did the spiritual earth and physical earth occupy two separate spaces so there
would be enough space to create the physical version?

No, they take up the same space, same as how our spirits and bodies take up the same space to form a soul.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

What about being created physically allowed the animals to procreate before the Fall?

I’m not sure. From how O understood it, spiritual matter is one type of “element” if you will. Mixing one element with the same element does not create life, but the sex organs we have now have the ability to create life.

5 hours ago, theplains said:

Why did mankind need bodies of flesh and blood to live on earth when Adam and Eve were already living in the
Garden of Eden without blood in their veins before the Fall? 

The question of blood and “celestial blood” or whatever i is called only had to do with immortality and mortality and not to do with being on earth

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9 hours ago, theplains said:

Page 28 says, "The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind
."

Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

We don't know, any answer would be speculation, a best guess, personal opinion, etc... It would be similar to saying does our spirit consume space like a physical body? If this is important, Heavenly Father will let us know in this life through his prophets; otherwise, we can ask him when we see him.

9 hours ago, theplains said:

Since the earth was created spiritually first, why did Jesus supposedly have to go somewhere where there was
space to make a physical earth? 

Did the spiritual earth and physical earth occupy two separate spaces so there
would be enough space to create the physical version?

First question, this question doesn't really matter, and not sure its point. A question similar would be, "Why did God place a Garden "east" in Eden, why not "west"? The question is irrelevant and doesn't draw us closer to anything, let alone Christ.  It also appears you are confusing the creation spiritually and the result of the fall which is what made everything physical. 

Second question, appears I agree with Fether, do our spirits and our bodies occupy two separate spaces? The answer would be easy to think through -- no -- they occupy the same space. How has God accomplished this? Have no clue, your speculation, guess, and opinion is as good as mine.

9 hours ago, theplains said:

What about being created physically allowed the animals to procreate before the Fall?

This question really doesn't make any sense. It was the physical creation (the Fall) that allowed the animals to procreate in the first place. The scriptures do not highlight any animals procreating before the Fall. You must be gathering this information from elsewhere - what source are you quoting here? The statement in the given quote merely points out they could procreate, or had the ability to procreate, much like Adam and Eve. Also would be helpful if you provide a link from lds.org so we can actually read the quote ourselves in context of the lesson provided.

9 hours ago, theplains said:

The next paragraph continues as "Now the earth was ready for the greatest creation of all - mankind. Our spirits
would be given bodies of flesh and blood so they could live on earth
."

Why did mankind need bodies of flesh and blood to live on earth when Adam and Eve were already living in the
Garden of Eden without blood in their veins before the Fall?

Flesh and blood is the result of a physical earth. It appears we all need flesh and blood to live in our mortal (physical) creation. Unless of course you think you can survive without blood in our mortal probation?

Adam and Eve were in a perfect state, and it doesn't appear that "blood" (flesh) is required in our spiritual state. Why? Your guess is as good as anyone else.

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17 hours ago, theplains said:

Page 28 says, "The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind
."

Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

Since the earth was created spiritually first, why did Jesus supposedly have to go somewhere where there was
space to make a physical earth?  Did the spiritual earth and physical earth occupy two separate spaces so there
would be enough space to create the physical version?

What about being created physically allowed the animals to procreate before the Fall?

The next paragraph continues as "Now the earth was ready for the greatest creation of all - mankind. Our spirits
would be given bodies of flesh and blood so they could live on earth
."

Why did mankind need bodies of flesh and blood to live on earth when Adam and Eve were already living in the
Garden of Eden without blood in their veins before the Fall? 

Thanks,
Jim

Yes, but it makes sense that it would be spiritual space. Tying Abraham 3:24 with D&C 88:37-39 shows that strictly spirit and strictly physical kingdoms abide different laws, and the idea is that the Lord commanded those laws that link spiritual and physical kingdoms so that spirit children could live in a physical kingdom. As the Atoning One He could reconcile the two sets of laws.

D&C 88 continues to explain that there are many kinds of kingdoms where spirit and element are united according to their respective laws, whether temporal (mortal) or spiritually (immortal). Eden was a kingdom that does not require blood to inhabit, and mortality is another, which requires blood to inhabit. The same with the laws of procreation: each kingdom has its own capacity to support their respective laws on that subject.

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It appears that the OP is working out of the Gospel Principles manual, chapter 5 (which is now page 22, must have been page 28 in an older edition) https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-5-the-creation?lang=eng

I don't think I can add anything to what others have said. Any of these details we try to fill in would be speculation. This is the internet, where we like to speculate, as long as one recognizes that it is all speculation.

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21 hours ago, theplains said:

Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

Let's see if you can answer your own question. I am assuming that you believe that God is Spirit,  If so, does God consume space? (see Eph 1:23, , Jer. 23:24

If God, consume space, then why not the spirit creation of earth?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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5 hours ago, zil said:

Page 28 of what?  (Not that I care, but the people who are speculating on the quote, assuming some Church source, probably ought to care.)

What, I am not speculating, I provide the whole truth, nothing but the truth. ;)

Ya, this is in part why in one of my questions I asked where he was quoting this information. I wanted to know context of the lesson or manual he was sharing from.

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On 8/26/2018 at 1:10 AM, Anddenex said:

The statement in the given quote merely points out they could procreate, or had the ability to procreate, much like Adam and Eve. Also would be helpful if you provide a link from lds.org so we can actually read the quote ourselves in context of the lesson provided.

My mistake.  The actual quote from page 24 of the 1997 Gospel Principles is the following:

"The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind."

Ok. So it appears you believe the animals had the ability to procreate, much like Adam and Eve
but I'm unclear on your timing.  

Gospel Principles says Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate before the Fall.

"After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children], and never should have known
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life
which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).

The prophet Lehi explained:

“And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have
fallen [been cut off from the presence of God], but he would have
remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created
must have remained in the same state in which they were after they
were created....

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have
remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no
misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin."

I hope I understand your beliefs correctly.  Do you believe they still had ability to have children
before the Fall after reading the above passages?

Thanks,
Jim

Edited by theplains
Fixed grammar. Updated quote.
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On 8/26/2018 at 1:10 AM, Anddenex said:

Flesh and blood is the result of a physical earth. It appears we all need flesh and blood to live in our mortal (physical) creation.

Do you believe Adam and Eve existed in a physical earth (our Earth) without blood in their veins before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

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3 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam and Eve existed in a physical earth (our Earth) without blood in their veins before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

This addresses a question that @Rob Osborn and I have sort-of discussed.   Rob, I believe, is absolutely certain that Adam and Eve existed as actual physical beings in the Garden of Eden - and I believe he believes Eden was once here on earth.  As for myself - I have studied this possibility extensively in my mind and heart and have not received spiritual confirmation.  The closest I personally have come to an answer is that there are a lot of "principles" concerning things that took place in our pre-existence - including principles of the Fall of Adam (mankind) that are still missing from the scriptural accounts and revelations that will yet be revealed. 

It has been revealed to the Latter-day Saints that Adam was known as Michael in our pre-existence state and that all mankind exercised their agency, with full knowledge, that we would become fallen and subject to Satan to suffer many things - but that Jesus would redeem us by his blood sacrifice.  It is also revelation to the Latter-day Saints that the ancient blood sacrifices of animals among the covenant "children" of G-d is a type and shadow - symbol or metaphor. of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  These animal blood sacrifices were actual and historical - but the most important element was that the blessings sought were a result of the blood sacrifice of Christ and not because of the blood sacrifice of any animal.

Personally I am open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were created and born of flesh and blood just as we are.  I am also open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were created using different methods than how we are created by birth through flesh and blood - but I am not aware of any such revelation - nor am I aware of any revelation that says their bodies were created through birth the same as ours.  When someone insists they know the answer - I am keen to know how they came by such understanding but those that claim to have such understanding have not shown, as best as I can understand, that they have access to any revelation that I have somehow not already carefully and prayerfully considered.  I have some theories of my own - that I have arrived at logically but I am not going to wager my personal salvation and faith in G-d on any possibility I have so far encountered.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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On 8/25/2018 at 2:48 PM, theplains said:

Page 28 says, "The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind
."

Does a spirit earth consume space like a physical earth consumes space?

Since the earth was created spiritually first, why did Jesus supposedly have to go somewhere where there was
space to make a physical earth?  Did the spiritual earth and physical earth occupy two separate spaces so there
would be enough space to create the physical version?

What about being created physically allowed the animals to procreate before the Fall?

The next paragraph continues as "Now the earth was ready for the greatest creation of all - mankind. Our spirits
would be given bodies of flesh and blood so they could live on earth
."

Why did mankind need bodies of flesh and blood to live on earth when Adam and Eve were already living in the
Garden of Eden without blood in their veins before the Fall? 

Thanks,
Jim

When the preexistent Jesus Christ selected the precise location where this earth would be created, he created the spiritual earth, which he created first, and then, at the appointed time, he created the physical earth in that very same location. The spiritual earth and physical earth occupy the same space in the same way each of our bodies and spirits simultaneously occupy the same space. President Brigham Young taught when we die our spirits go to a spirit world that’s located on and within the boundaries of this earth. 

We need fallen bodies of flesh and blood so that our faith, trust and willingness to be obedient to God can be tested in an environment of intense spiritual opposition. It’s only by overcoming the trials and vicissitudes endemic to this fallen state, through our faith in Christ, that we can find true happiness and satisfaction through the divinely-ordained process of the refinement of human character through successfully waging war against the forces of spiritual darkness by means of the divine gifts and powers God extends to the faithful.

Edited by Jersey Boy
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6 hours ago, theplains said:

My mistake.  The actual quote from page 24 of the 1997 Gospel Principles is the following:

"The earth and everything on it were created spiritually before they were created physically (see 
Moses 3:5). In planning to create the physical earth, Christ ... said to those who were with him, We will go 
down, for there is space there ... Then he created the animals - fish, cattle, insects, and birds of all kinds. 
These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind."

Ok. So it appears you believe the animals had the ability to procreate, much like Adam and Eve
but I'm unclear on your timing.  

Gospel Principles says Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate before the Fall.

"After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children], and never should have known
good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life
which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11).

The prophet Lehi explained:

“And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have
fallen [been cut off from the presence of God], but he would have
remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created
must have remained in the same state in which they were after they
were created....

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have
remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no
misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin."

I hope I understand your beliefs correctly.  Do you believe they still had ability to have children
before the Fall after reading the above passages?

Thanks,
Jim

Thank you for providing the source, and according to the question you have asked here are the quotes that correlate with it:

1) These animals had the ability to reproduce their own kind."

2) "After the Fall, Eve said, “Were it not for our transgression we never
should have had seed [children],

3) , if Adam had not transgressed he...must have remained in the same state in which they were after they
were created.

4) And they would have had no children

These points appear clear to speak regarding the ability to reproduce after their own kind. The points are pretty clear that Adam and Eve would have had no children if they did not transgress the given direction from God of what he did and did not forbid. The information provides a reasoning, for Adam and Eve, due to their innocence.

Any clarification beyond this would become personal opinion that may or may not be true.

In light of this statement, "Gospel Principles says Adam and Eve did not have the ability to procreate before the Fall." This isn't correctly interpreting what has been provided. We only know they would not have had any children with the caveat "due to their innocent state," not that they did not have the "ability" to procreate even before the fall. They also may have had the ability, but having the ability and knowing how are two different concepts, especially as they were in a state of innocence.

 

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Adam and Eve existed in a physical earth (our Earth) without blood in their veins before the Fall?

Thanks,
Jim

Blood is the reason we are able to die. Adam and Eve would have known no death. It appear to me to be pretty clear Adam and Eve were created spiritually, and existed within a spiritual realm. The Fall brought about the physical earth -- blood - thus the ability to die.

As nothing is specifically said, this is my thoughts on the matter. If they were of blood then they would not have been immortal. Something else, similar to God who is of flesh and bone, allowed them to live. As to what, have no clue.

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3 hours ago, Traveler said:

This addresses a question that @Rob Osborn and I have sort-of discussed.   Rob, I believe, is absolutely certain that Adam and Eve existed as actual physical beings in the Garden of Eden - and I believe he believes Eden was once here on earth.  As for myself - I have studied this possibility extensively in my mind and heart and have not received spiritual confirmation.  The closest I personally have come to an answer is that there are a lot of "principles" concerning things that took place in our pre-existence - including principles of the Fall of Adam (mankind) that are still missing from the scriptural accounts and revelations that will yet be revealed. 

It has been revealed to the Latter-day Saints that Adam was known as Michael in our pre-existence state and that all mankind exercised their agency, with full knowledge, that we would become fallen and subject to Satan to suffer many things - but that Jesus would redeem us by his blood sacrifice.  It is also revelation to the Latter-day Saints that the ancient blood sacrifices of animals among the covenant "children" of G-d is a type and shadow - symbol or metaphor. of the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  These animal blood sacrifices were actual and historical - but the most important element was that the blessings sought were a result of the blood sacrifice of Christ and not because of the blood sacrifice of any animal.

Personally I am open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were created and born of flesh and blood just as we are.  I am also open to the possibility that Adam and Eve were created using different methods than how we are created by birth through flesh and blood - but I am not aware of any such revelation - nor am I aware of any revelation that says their bodies were created through birth the same as ours.  When someone insists they know the answer - I am keen to know how they came by such understanding but those that claim to have such understanding have not shown, as best as I can understand, that they have access to any revelation that I have somehow not already carefully and prayerfully considered.  I have some theories of my own - that I have arrived at logically but I am not going to wager my personal salvation and faith in G-d on any possibility I have so far encountered.

 

The Traveler

Adam and Eve were born just like you and me, even by blood as the scriptures so testify.

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4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Adam and Eve were born just like you and me, even by blood as the scriptures so testify.

I did not expect this response from you - do you mind sharing scriptures that Adam was born an infant with blood coursing through his body - I was under the impression that blood is what makes a mortal and capable of death.  I am most interested to walk with you as you explain - and I hope you do not mind a few questions along the way.

 

Thank you

 

The Traveler

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55 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I did not expect this response from you - do you mind sharing scriptures that Adam was born an infant with blood coursing through his body - I was under the impression that blood is what makes a mortal and capable of death.  I am most interested to walk with you as you explain - and I hope you do not mind a few questions along the way.

 

Thank you

 

The Traveler

Well, certainly God told Adam how they were born in Moses 6:59

 

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

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7 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, certainly God told Adam how they were born in Moses 6:59

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

While Adam and Eve became mortal by the introduction of blood into their equilibrium, verse 58 indicates that the Lord is commanding that Adam and Eve teach their children the components of birth into a fallen world (water, blood and spirit connected with dust or element). The "ye" refers to the children of our first parents, not to our first parents. While in a paradisaical state, Adam and Eve possessed all but blood to live within that second estate in Eden. But in a mortal state, we obtain blood through birth in order to live within this second estate.

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20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

While Adam and Eve became mortal by the introduction of blood into their equilibrium, verse 58 indicates that the Lord is commanding that Adam and Eve teach their children the components of birth into a fallen world (water, blood and spirit connected with dust or element). The "ye" refers to the children of our first parents, not to our first parents. While in a paradisaical state, Adam and Eve possessed all but blood to live within that second estate in Eden. But in a mortal state, we obtain blood through birth in order to live within this second estate.

Do you have a scripture that backs this up?

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"27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth-" (Mosiah 7:27)

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9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, certainly God told Adam how they were born in Moses 6:59

 

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

Thank you for your response - however I cannot say that I agree that this scripture is G-d telling Adam how he was born.   If you go back to verse 47-48:

Quote

47 And as Enoch spake forth the words of God, the people trembled, and could not stand in his presence.

48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe.

This scripture you quote is part of what Enoch was teaching people in his generation how it was that they were born of water and blood and how they must be born again by water in baptism and by blood of Christ to be sanctified.  I think you error in thinking this is a specific reference unique to the man Adam not a general reference to all mankind that are descended from Adam and Eve.

I do, sort-of agree, with you notion that the man Adam was born in the same manner as we are - but this notion of Adam's birth is, I thought, speculation I have arrived at in an attempt to solve many doctrinal issues concerning symbolism and metaphors that I am personally not 100% convinced I (or anyone else) understand.

 

The Traveler

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2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Do you have a scripture that backs this up?

The scripture is the very same one that uses “ye” referencing the children of Adam and Eve. Adam was commanded to say such-and such, addressing his children.

In these verses, to be cleansed by Jesus’ blood for spiritual rebirth is juxtaposed with the fallen blood required for mortal birth. Adam and Eve were not mortally born nor fallen in Eden. Jesus’ blood has power to atone physically and spiritually; our blood has power to separate us from God, physically and spiritually. Adam and Eve lived in the presence of God in Eden, and so while physical beings, they possessed not mortal, temporal or natural bodies, but rather immortal, spiritual bodies (see Alma 11:45, where it is explained that an immortal body, while physical, is a spiritual body). As such, there was no role or purpose for blood for their presence in Eden, nor for contributing to their transgression in Eden, nor for the Lord’s blood to redeem them from Eden.

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29 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

"27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth-" (Mosiah 7:27)

The image is not the components of the image. God has an immortal body of flesh and bone (element, which is eternal). Mortals are created after His image, but with bodies of water, blood (making them mortal), and dust (element, which is eternal).

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4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The image is not the components of the image. God has an immortal body of flesh and bone (element, which is eternal). Mortals are created after His image, but with bodies of water, blood (making them mortal), and dust (element, which is eternal).

A small correction or understanding - the term (dust) as applied in scripture - I have come to understand as corrupted physical stuff that has no value or use.  Thus the idea that man is created from "the dust" is symbolic of G-d taking unorganized and otherwise corrupted and useless matter - and at great divine cost and effort able to transform ruined and worthless matter into something wonderful and of greatest value - and from a scientific view - the most rare stuff (human life) that exists in this entire universe.

 

The Traveler

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25 minutes ago, Traveler said:

A small correction or understanding - the term (dust) as applied in scripture - I have come to understand as corrupted physical stuff that has no value or use.  Thus the idea that man is created from "the dust" is symbolic of G-d taking unorganized and otherwise corrupted and useless matter - and at great divine cost and effort able to transform ruined and worthless matter into something wonderful and of greatest value - and from a scientific view - the most rare stuff (human life) that exists in this entire universe.

 

The Traveler

That is a good point, but the cross-references for D&C 93:5 (elementsa) indicate that dust and element are also synonymous. Both can be part of the fallen, temporal world or a spiritual, sanctified or eternal world, and either being physical in nature.

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