the physical and spiritual Earth

[Rob Osborn]

32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The image is not the components of the image. God has an immortal body of flesh and bone (element, which is eternal). Mortals are created after His image, but with bodies of water, blood (making them mortal), and dust (element, which is eternal).

Does God have a heart? What about lungs? What about veins? When the resurrected Christ appeared, did he not have a body of flesh and bones? What gives flesh it's appearance? Is it blood? Did Christ not eat with his disciples after his resurrection?

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

Thank you for your response - however I cannot say that I agree that this scripture is G-d telling Adam how he was born.   If you go back to verse 47-48:

This scripture you quote is part of what Enoch was teaching people in his generation how it was that they were born of water and blood and how they must be born again by water in baptism and by blood of Christ to be sanctified.  I think you error in thinking this is a specific reference unique to the man Adam not a general reference to all mankind that are descended from Adam and Eve.

I do, sort-of agree, with you notion that the man Adam was born in the same manner as we are - but this notion of Adam's birth is, I thought, speculation I have arrived at in an attempt to solve many doctrinal issues concerning symbolism and metaphors that I am personally not 100% convinced I (or anyone else) understand.

 

The Traveler

I'm not sure where some of the strange ideas we have in our church and culture come from. Why would God create Adam in some other way than through his own very seed? If we are created in God's image I take this to mean that all of our functions and body parts are the same as God's only that we are mortal. This means God has a heart, veins, blood, sexual reproductive organs, etc. Two things- why do we associate blood with mortality? Why do we not see sexual reproduction as the method whereby God created Adam?

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Does God have a heart? What about lungs? What about veins? When the resurrected Christ appeared, did he not have a body of flesh and bones? What gives flesh it's appearance? Is it blood? Did Christ not eat with his disciples after his resurrection?

No descriptions of life in Eden, resurrected bodies or God entail the presence of blood; that is mentioned strictly in connection with mortality, and specifically in the verses you offered, and others which give a fuller picture, from Moses 6.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm not sure where some of the strange ideas we have in our church and culture come from. Why would God create Adam in some other way than through his own very seed? If we are created in God's image I take this to mean that all of our functions and body parts are the same as God's only that we are mortal. This means God has a heart, veins, blood, sexual reproductive organs, etc. Two things- why do we associate blood with mortality? Why do we not see sexual reproduction as the method whereby God created Adam?

Of course Adam and Eve could have been created through sexual reproduction in a translated sphere as Brigham Young and others taught, and then brought to Eden. That does not necessarily call for blood, which comes up in scripture only as a feature of mortality, which is why we associate blood with the fallen condition and mortality.

Edited August 28, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Of course Adam and Eve could have been created through sexual reproduction in a translated sphere as Brigham Young and others taught, and then brought to Eden. That does not necessarily call for blood, which comes up in scripture only as a feature of mortality, which is why we associate blood with the fallen condition and mortality.

All we have is pretty much a detail of mortality. Of the little bit we do have on immortality we know several facts-

1. Immortal bodies are made of flesh and bones

2. Immortal bodies can eat and digest food and water

3. Our resurrected bodies shall have hair and all things restored in perfect working order.

4. Immortal bodies look like our mortal bodies.

I'm not seeing where just because something isn't mentioned we only have it in mortality. As far as we can surmise, immortal bodies are just like mortal bodies in every respect minus the disease and corruption.

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

All we have is pretty much a detail of mortality. Of the little bit we do have on immortality we know several facts-

1. Immortal bodies are made of flesh and bones

2. Immortal bodies can eat and digest food and water

3. Our resurrected bodies shall have hair and all things restored in perfect working order.

4. Immortal bodies look like our mortal bodies.

I'm not seeing where just because something isn't mentioned we only have it in mortality. As far as we can surmise, immortal bodies are just like mortal bodies in every respect minus the disease and corruption.

But where something like blood is specifically mentioned and emphasized only in the context of mortality, and the physiology of immortality is not described anywhere, well... let your imagination run wild! This does not change the essential teaching and covenant meaning of Moses 6, which is not that Adam and Eve had paradisaical blood flowing through their veins, or the Resurrected Lord likewise.

[Rob Osborn]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

But where something like blood is specifically mentioned and emphasized only in the context of mortality, and the physiology of immortality is not described anywhere, well... let your imagination run wild! This does not change the essential teaching and covenant meaning of Moses 6, which is not that Adam and Eve had paradisaical blood flowing through their veins, or the Resurrected Lord likewise.

Can you provide a scripture that states immortals don't have blood?

[zil]

Quote

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Multiple prophets (and others) interpreted 1 Corinthians 15:50 this way:

Quote

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 Pg.367
God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire. "Our God is a consuming fire." When our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in this tabernacle.

Quote

The blood he spilled upon Mount Calvary he did not receive again into his veins. That was poured out, and when he was resurrected, another element took the place of the blood. It will be so with every person who receives a resurrection: the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization. When this is dissolved, and we again obtain our bodies by the power of the resurrection, that which we now call the life of the body, and which is formed from the food we eat and the water we drink, will be supplanted by another element; for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

JD 7:160, Brigham Young, Want of Governing Capacities Among Men, Etc.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129.1-2?lang=eng&clang=eng#p1

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.22?lang=eng&clang=eng#p21

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/24.39?lang=eng&clang=eng#p38

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#::c0920f50

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Can you provide a scripture that states immortals don't have blood?

I see that @zil answered this.

Can you provide a scripture that say spirits have spirit blood with spirit hemoglobin for transporting spirit oxygen? Or that resurrected beings have resurrected blood with resurrected hemoglobin to transport resurrected oxygen? Or that clarify whether they are dependent on spirit or resurrected (respectively) microorganisms to maintain bodily functions as they do in mortality? Or explain how, in a resurrected body, elements become separably connected to spirit (contrary to D&C 93:33) in order for biological processes to occur?

[Rob Osborn]

10 hours ago, zil said:

Multiple prophets (and others) interpreted 1 Corinthians 15:50 this way:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/129.1-2?lang=eng&clang=eng#p1

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.22?lang=eng&clang=eng#p21

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/24.39?lang=eng&clang=eng#p38

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#::c0920f50

And yet God has a body of flesh...

[Rob Osborn]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I see that @zil answered this.

 

Can you provide a scripture that say spirits have spirit blood with spirit hemoglobin for transporting spirit oxygen? Or that resurrected beings have resurrected blood with resurrected hemoglobin to transport resurrected oxygen? Or that clarify whether they are dependent on spirit or resurrected (respectively) microorganisms to maintain bodily functions as they do in mortality? Or explain how, in a resurrected body, elements become separably connected to spirit (contrary to D&C 93:33) in order for biological processes to occur?

 

I find it interesting that there isn't scripture stating one way or the other on the details of biology of the human body. It isn't blood that makes us mortal.

[zil]

13 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And yet God has a body of flesh...

and bone.

Flesh and bone.  Not flesh and blood.

But it's pointless talking to you.  I posted in case anyone else wasn't aware of Paul's writing, or Joseph Smith's teaching.  I knew full well what your response would be.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find it interesting that there isn't scripture stating one way or the other on the details of biology of the human body. It isn't blood that makes us mortal.

but try being mortal without it LOL

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Does God have a heart? What about lungs? What about veins? When the resurrected Christ appeared, did he not have a body of flesh and bones? What gives flesh it's appearance? Is it blood? Did Christ not eat with his disciples after his resurrection?

 

20 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I'm not sure where some of the strange ideas we have in our church and culture come from. Why would God create Adam in some other way than through his own very seed? If we are created in God's image I take this to mean that all of our functions and body parts are the same as God's only that we are mortal. This means God has a heart, veins, blood, sexual reproductive organs, etc. Two things- why do we associate blood with mortality? Why do we not see sexual reproduction as the method whereby God created Adam?

 

13 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Can you provide a scripture that states immortals don't have blood?

 

Orson Pratt in his book “The Seer” puts forth a very interesting “theory” concerning our discussion that you may find quite interesting.  He believes that in Celestial worlds that Celestial fruits and vegetables grow and that these constitutes the food of Celestial beings.  These grown Celestial fruits and vegetables, Orson suggests, when digested are “converted into a fluid which, in its nature, is spiritual, and which, circulating in the veins and arteries of the celestial male and female, preserves their tabernacles from decay and death.”  He also suggests that “Earthly vegetables from blood, and blood forms flesh and bones” which he believes and suggest is corrupt and will bring about decay and eventual and enviable death.

This goes along with some of what you have suggested – that is that it is possible that a literal tree exists that is capable of corrupting an immortal being and that without access to “Celestial” food would end in death.  However, this would contradict you theory that an immortal Celestial being has what we mortals understand as blood flowing through their veins.

I would not suggest that anyone believe all or part of what Orson suggests – nor do I suggest that his ideas have no merit to be considered.  What I do suggest is that his ideas seem to answer a lot of questions but do not answer all the questions I believe should be asked and understood.  I think there is much more to mortality or immortality than the literal foods we eat.  I also suggest that it was a common belief in the early restored church (while Joseph Smith Jr was living) for the Latter-Day Saints to believe that immortal being were not flesh and blood as we mortals are – but possessed a spiritual fluid that was not at all to be confused with blood.  BTW - I am unaware that Joseph Smith ever corrected brother Orson or suggested anything different concerning spiritual fluid verses blood.  Thus you could understand that "some of the strange ideas we have in our church and culture" as you reference, come from an Apostle with direct ties to Joseph Smith and perhaps private conversations they had.

Can you provide a scripture that states that immortal beings have blood?

 

The Traveler

Edited August 29, 2018 by Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

I find it interesting that there isn't scripture stating one way or the other on the details of biology of the human body. It isn't blood that makes us mortal.

As concerning the resurrection, I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young; there will not be "added unto their stature one cubit," neither taken from it; all will be raised by the power of God, having spirit in their bodies, and not blood. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.199)

A possible way to reconcile your heretical idea of resurrected bodies continuing having the same kind of blood that now fills mortal bodies, and the well-known Church teaching that resurrected bodies have no blood, is to consider the possibility that a glorious spiritual fluid — spiritual blood if you will — will take the place of the blood that now fills our mortal bodies. In fact, like the apostle Paul, the prophet Amulek taught the Zoramites that our resurrected bodies will become ‘spiritual bodies,’ meaning bodies that though as tangible as our mortal bodies will be transformed by the power of God so as to take on a wholly glorified spiritual nature. This being the case, it doesn’t seem such a stretch to imagine that just as our flesh and bone  will continue to be tangible flesh and bone but transformed so as to take on a glorious spiritual nature, that in the same manner the blood that now fills our mortal bodies will be transformed into a powerful life-giving spiritual substance that will course through the spiritually transformed veins and arteries of our resurrected spiritual bodies.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

 

 

Orson Pratt in his book “The Seer” puts forth a very interesting “theory” concerning our discussion that you may find quite interesting.  He believes that in Celestial worlds that Celestial fruits and vegetables grow and that these constitutes the food of Celestial beings.  These grown Celestial fruits and vegetables, Orson suggests, when digested are “converted into a fluid which, in its nature, is spiritual, and which, circulating in the veins and arteries of the celestial male and female, preserves their tabernacles from decay and death.”  He also suggests that “Earthly vegetables from blood, and blood forms flesh and bones” which he believes and suggest is corrupt and will bring about decay and eventual and enviable death.

This goes along with some of what you have suggested – that is that it is possible that a literal tree exists that is capable of corrupting an immortal being and that without access to “Celestial” food would end in death.  However, this would contradict you theory that an immortal Celestial being has what we mortals understand as blood flowing through their veins.

I would not suggest that anyone believe all or part of what Orson suggests – nor do I suggest that his ideas have no merit to be considered.  What I do suggest is that his ideas seem to answer a lot of questions but do not answer all the questions I believe should be asked and understood.  I think there is much more to mortality or immortality than the literal foods we eat.  I also suggest that it was a common belief in the early restored church (while Joseph Smith Jr was living) for the Latter-Day Saints to believe that immortal being were not flesh and blood as we mortals are – but possessed a spiritual fluid that was not at all to be confused with blood.  BTW - I am unaware that Joseph Smith ever corrected brother Orson or suggested anything different concerning spiritual fluid verses blood.  Thus you could understand that "some of the strange ideas we have in our church and culture" as you reference, come from an Apostle with direct ties to Joseph Smith and perhaps private conversations they had.

Can you provide a scripture that states that immortal beings have blood?

 

The Traveler

"27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth-" (Mosiah 7:27)

The scripture here states with logic that the created Adam and God are the same and insinuates that God too has a body of flesh and blood.

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

As concerning the resurrection, I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young; there will not be "added unto their stature one cubit," neither taken from it; all will be raised by the power of God, having spirit in their bodies, and not blood. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.199)

A possible way to reconcile your heretical idea of resurrected bodies continuing having the same kind of blood that now fills mortal bodies and the well-known Church teaching that resurrected bodies have no blood is to consider the possibility that a glorious spiritual fluid — spiritual blood if you will — will take the place of the blood that now fills our mortal bodies. In fact, like the apostle Paul, the prophet Amulek taught the Zoramites that our resurrected bodies will become ‘spiritual bodies,’ meaning bodies that, though as tangible as our mortal bodies, will be transformed by the power of God so as to take on a wholly glorified spiritual nature. This being the case, it doesn’t seem such a stretch to imagine that just as our flesh and bone  will continue to be tangible flesh and bone but transformed so as to take on a glorious spiritual nature, that in the same manner the blood that now fills our mortal bodies will be transformed into a powerful life-giving spiritual substance that will course through the spiritually transformed veins and arteries of our resurrected spiritual bodies.

 

 

It's all nice in theory but I'm still wondering why we continue to associate blood with mortality. The life of the body is in the blood. Are entire physiology is centered around the properties and function of the heart, lungs and blood. 

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

It's all nice in theory but I'm still wondering why we continue to associate blood with mortality. The life of the body is in the blood. Are entire physiology is centered around the properties and function of the heart, lungs and blood. 

Associating blood with mortality may well have to do with the physiology of mortal life. But the scriptures are not a science book, and the science of immortality has not been revealed.

Alma 34:11 and 44:6 equate blood with life (as the Old Testament does), but the context is entirely mortal life. Moses 7:45 teaches that the shedding, not the acquisition, of blood yields sanctification and eternal life (implying that blood is limited to the mortal sphere). This is done in two ways: 1) Christ overcame sin and death by shedding His blood, or giving up His life, in sacrifice. 2) Mortals cannot become immortal without dying first, or giving up their lives (their blood stops flowing), in nature. Thus mortality (blood) is given up for immortality (quickening spirit). “And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” Acquired blood and spirit is to mortal life and living soul as relinquished blood and spirit is to is to immortal life and quickened soul.

[theplains]

On 8/28/2018 at 11:36 AM, CV75 said:

The image is not the components of the image. God has an immortal body of flesh and bone (element, which is eternal). Mortals are created after His image, but with bodies of water, blood (making them mortal), and dust (element, which is eternal).

When Adam and Eve were created in the 'image of God', do you believe this 'image of God' includes 'in the
moral character of God (like honesty, loving, not a liar, not a thief, etc)?'

Or does 'image' only refer to having similar body parts?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

16 minutes ago, theplains said:

When Adam and Eve were created in the 'image of God', do you believe this 'image of God' includes 'in the
moral character of God (like honesty, loving, not a liar, not a thief, etc)?'

Or does 'image' only refer to having similar body parts?

Thanks,
Jim

Everything -- in the same ways a fetus is in the image of his parents.

[Traveler]

18 hours ago, theplains said:

When Adam and Eve were created in the 'image of God', do you believe this 'image of God' includes 'in the
moral character of God (like honesty, loving, not a liar, not a thief, etc)?'

Or does 'image' only refer to having similar body parts?

Thanks,
Jim

The ancient Hebrew phrase is "image" and "likeness".  I use to have that exact Hebrew words and translation - but in essence it is a "physical" model or presentation intended to represent.  We see similar terminology use in reference to idols and the concept of a graven image.  I believe that our emotions not so different from G-d's except that he is always disciplined so that he has control of his emotions and is not controlled by his emotions.

 

The Traveler

[wenglund]

On 8/29/2018 at 9:07 AM, Jersey Boy said:

As concerning the resurrection, I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young; there will not be "added unto their stature one cubit," neither taken from it; all will be raised by the power of God, having spirit in their bodies, and not blood. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.199)

A possible way to reconcile your heretical idea of resurrected bodies continuing having the same kind of blood that now fills mortal bodies, and the well-known Church teaching that resurrected bodies have no blood, is to consider the possibility that a glorious spiritual fluid — spiritual blood if you will — will take the place of the blood that now fills our mortal bodies. In fact, like the apostle Paul, the prophet Amulek taught the Zoramites that our resurrected bodies will become ‘spiritual bodies,’ meaning bodies that though as tangible as our mortal bodies will be transformed by the power of God so as to take on a wholly glorified spiritual nature. This being the case, it doesn’t seem such a stretch to imagine that just as our flesh and bone  will continue to be tangible flesh and bone but transformed so as to take on a glorious spiritual nature, that in the same manner the blood that now fills our mortal bodies will be transformed into a powerful life-giving spiritual substance that will course through the spiritually transformed veins and arteries of our resurrected spiritual bodies.

 

 

Support for this as well as what @zil noted can be found in  1 Cor. 15,  where it talks about different "bodies" (mortal/corruptible flesh as contrasted with immortal/incorruptible flesh--verses 35-49) and that corrupt flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (vs 50 -58), suggesting that blood is the means by which death and corruption entered into the world (i.e. the fall) via the first man, Adam, and by the shedding of blood (emblematic of the removal of blood, to be replaced by the "quickening spirit")  incorruption and eternal life were made possible by the last Adam (vs 22-45)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 30, 2018 by wenglund

[wenglund]

[posted in wrong thread]

Edited August 30, 2018 by wenglund

[theplains]

On 8/30/2018 at 12:19 PM, Traveler said:

The ancient Hebrew phrase is "image" and "likeness". ... I believe that our emotions not so different from G-d's except that he is always disciplined so that he has control of his emotions and is not controlled by his emotions.

 

The Traveler

What emotions were Adam and Eve created with in the Garden of Eden?

Jim

[Connie]

@theplains You might find some of the quotes from the Pearl of Great Price Institute Manual helpful. Here's a link.