Is the Pope in trouble

[NeuroTypical]

8 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

And it is quite insulting to posit that the Catholic government has no compassion for a distraught mother and her raped child as they fulfill the demands of mercy and justice.

I think we're 85% in agreement here.  I am not positing the Catholics have no compassion.  I am identifying the difference between my church and the Catholic church on such things.  And I'm identifying how one of those differences (always reporting vs. maybe reporting) have impacted various victims I know personally.

 

Quote

So why argue that American Law justice is justice while Canon Law justice is not???  Well, I actually know the answer to this question... because you're LDS.

I'm not arguing canon law justice isn't justice.  I'm arguing that, as an American and as a Latter-day Saint, our system of secular law must be followed.  

Again, I get that Catholics don't go as far as to use the "must" word.  I understand why, and I can respect their reasoning to an extent.  As you point out, I disagree because I think my church's way is better.  

Edited August 30, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

32 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I appreciate you sharing the Catholic perspective, @anatess2.  Obviously it differs from my LDS perspective, but it really helps me get a better understanding and appreciation of what's going on with Catholics.  

Just to be clear, especially to @carlimac.  I am not defending pedophilia or the crimes committed by priests or their bishops/archbishops or saying they didn't happen.  I am simply defending the Catholic Church itself.  In the same manner that I would defend the LDS Church from that bishop who went on a hunger strike and his vocal followers.  The Catholic Church, just like the LDS Church do not bend by popular demand.  They do believe they are led by Christ just like we do.  Therefore, any change the Catholic Church makes is not due to popular pressure but made under the claim that Christ inspires the Apostolic Authority to make the change.  Yes, we do not believe the Catholic Church is the true Church.  But, we still have to acknowledge that the Catholic Church believe that they are and are acting accordingly.

And just to clarify the comment about Kavanaugh.  That comment was directed at the media coverage that is geared to produce outrage in the same manner that the media coverage of "children separated at the border" was geared to produce outrage.  It's not meant to say the crimes were manufactured by the media.

Edited August 30, 2018 by anatess2

[anatess2]

6 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I think we're 85% in agreement here.  I am not positing the Catholics have no compassion.  I am identifying the difference between my church and the Catholic church on such things.  And I'm identifying how one of those differences (always reporting vs. maybe reporting) have impacted various victims I know personally.

 

I'm not arguing canon law justice isn't justice.  I'm arguing that, as an American and as a Latter-day Saint, our system of secular law must be followed.  

Again, I get that Catholics don't go as far as to use the "must" word.  I understand why, and I can respect their reasoning to an extent.  As you point out, I disagree because I think my church's way is better.  

Then we're in 99% agreement.  I don't believe the Catholic Church should go against their conscience to follow secular law.  But yes, the balance of that statement is... they'll have to accept the risk of "Peter crucified in defiance of the emperor".  That's pretty much the story of most Catholic Saints... choosing martyrdom over going against their conscience. 

But then that 1% disagreement might also be a byproduct of my being Filipino.  I have an intrinsic distrust for governments - including the US one.

[carlimac]

On 8/30/2018 at 12:30 PM, anatess2 said:

Just to be clear, especially to @carlimac.  I am not defending pedophilia or the crimes committed by priests or their bishops/archbishops or saying they didn't happen.  I am simply defending the Catholic Church itself.  In the same manner that I would defend the LDS Church from that bishop who went on a hunger strike and his vocal followers.  The Catholic Church, just like the LDS Church do not bend by popular demand.  They do believe they are led by Christ just like we do.  Therefore, any change the Catholic Church makes is not due to popular pressure but made under the claim that Christ inspires the Apostolic Authority to make the change.  Yes, we do not believe the Catholic Church is the true Church.  But, we still have to acknowledge that the Catholic Church believe that they are and are acting accordingly.

And just to clarify the comment about Kavanaugh.  That comment was directed at the media coverage that is geared to produce outrage in the same manner that the media coverage of "children separated at the border" was geared to produce outrage.  It's not meant to say the crimes were manufactured by the media.

I know you're not defending pedophilia. But you do seem to be denying the fact that many of these perps never got the "rehabbing" or whatever you call it required by  Canon Law.  They got away with their "sins" and kept at it for a long time. Sometimes the best laid plans don't go the way they are supposed to.  One interview I listened to said one of the priests was moved at least a dozen times to different parrishes and continued to molest kids all along the way. 

Edited August 31, 2018 by carlimac

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

I know you're not defending pedophilia. But you do seem to be denying the fact that many or these perps never got the "rehabbing" or whatever you call it required by  Canon Law.  They got away with their "sins" and kept at it for a long time. Sometimes the best laid plans don't go the way they are supposed to.  One interview I listened to said one of the priests was moved at least a dozen times to different parrishes and continues to molest kids all along the way. 

I'm not denying any fact or claim of each case.  I am simply skeptical of them as I have said, I don't make judgments on cases that I have no intimate knowledge of and I simply have not bothered to be intimate with any of these cases - I trust that the truth will eventually come to light, whether in Canon Law or the US justice system.   And I hold the position of trust in the Catholic Church system which also makes me skeptical about claims against "hiding the priest" or "covering up the crime" as it is very common - just like my conversation with @NeuroTypical above - that a lot of the accusations are borne out of the belief that Canon Law Justice does not qualify as justice.

[NeuroTypical]

I suppose it comes down to what we think Justice is, and what it is not.

It's hard for a young victim, for example, to think justice has been done, when there has been a) no legal action against her perpetrator, and b) dood continues to hold an office (or calling) of dignity and respect, continues to draw a paycheck, etc.  

Can a victim have justice, if they are unaware of actions being taken with their abuser?  As long as someone, somewhere metes out justice privately, does a victim even deserve to know?   I'm thinking mercy is for the sinner and justice is for the sinned-against, but perhaps there's more to the story.

Or maybe I don't know much about Catholicism - is there such a thing as a "fallen father" or a "denounced and untrustworthy bishop" or some such?  Where it's publicly acknowledged that dood has lost his good name and respect, but maintains the title?

As I think about how I've heard Catholics talk about some of the more horrible actions of prior Popes, maybe there's something to this...

Edited August 30, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I suppose it comes down to what we think Justice is, and what it is not.

It's hard for a young victim, for example, to think justice has been done, when there has been a) no legal action against her perpetrator, and b) dood continues to hold an office (or calling) of dignity and respect, continues to draw a paycheck, etc.  

Can a victim have justice, if they are unaware of actions being taken with their abuser?  As long as someone, somewhere metes out justice privately, does a victim even deserve to know?   I'm thinking mercy is for the sinner and justice is for the sinned-against, but perhaps there's more to the story.

This is the exact same dilemma as somebody who becomes victim of a crime in a foreign nation or commits a crime in a foreign nation.  Different laws are applied and so the victim's government will try to impose their laws over the crime as is the case of extraditions.

 

44 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Or maybe I don't know much about Catholicism - is there such a thing as a "fallen father" or a "denounced and untrustworthy bishop" or some such?  Where it's publicly acknowledged that dood has lost his good name and respect, but maintains the title?

As I think about how I've heard Catholics talk about some of the more horrible actions of prior Popes, maybe there's something to this...

Yes, there's such a thing as a Priest stripped of his Priesthood (laicasation) and even excommunicated.  In the Catholic Faith, excommunication is reserved for the most grievous of offenses and is usually reserved for unrepentant Priests to protect the flock.

But, you can't "lose your good name" and remain a Priest.  I'm not sure what that means actually.  Any priest who commits sin against the public is removed from public ministry.  They remain a Priest even as they are limited in their priesthood duties to non-public ministry like only being able to host mass for other priests.  It doesn't even have to be as grievous as pedophilia. 

So, my neighbor in the Philippines is a Priest.  His family died and he ended up having an orphan niece a few times removed.  Instead of sending the niece to the Catholic orphanage he decided to hide the niece in the rectory.  Well, the niece grew up and he ended up having a romantic relationship with his niece and she got pregnant.  So, he went through the Canon Law process, the investigation yielded that he was not a danger to the public but he still got removed from public ministry (vow of celibacy broken and all that...).  Well, somebody has to be the father of the child and so the Church decided to laicise the priest.  So he's not a priest anymore and took care of his daughter.  My dad helped him as he went through a some periods of depression.  Anyway, the daughter finally became an adult, and my neighbor submitted himself to the church to complete the process of reconciliation.  He was put in a monastery (by this time his mental health was compromised) and mentored through seclusion.  He finally completed that process and became healthy physically, mentally, and spiritually again.  He got his Priesthood back but he was not given any public ministry duties to the day he died.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by anatess2

[JohnsonJones]

20 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

If the un-safety of jails is the concern, would it not be logical to campaign for measures to make jails safer for everyone?

Absolutely, but the Us isn't prone to make progress on this very quickly.  The US traditionally has viewed prison and jail more as a punishment than a rehabilitation, and as such, making them safer has not been as high a priority in the US as other nations.

I would LOVE it if people were completely safe in jails and prisons as they were anyplace else in the US...or safer even.

[anatess2]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would LOVE it if people were completely safe in jails and prisons as they were anyplace else in the US...or safer even.

They used to "ship them to the Americas". 

 

[JohnsonJones]

24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

They used to "ship them to the Americas". 

 

Also Australia...right?

[anatess2]

Just now, JohnsonJones said:

Also Australia...right?

Yeah.  When the ones sent to the Americas became "rehab'd" enough to liberate themselves. 

 

[john4truth]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:08 PM, Traveler said:

@anatess2, most likely, has one of the best insights on our forum into current problems - The Washington Post; not the best source of anything, is reporting that a high ranking Cardinal is calling for the Pope's resignation because the Pope allegedly knew of sex abuses for years and was part of the silent cover up.  I do not like speculation in such matters - but I believe this could hurt Christianity in the greater landscape of public opinion as much as or perhaps more so than the separation between much of Traditional Christian doctrine and Science.  

Many of the agnostics and atheists I know are difficult to engage in religious centered discussion just because they are "fed" up with religion as a whole.

 

The Traveler

All Christianity is a bad place, the time will come when we will be in hiding

[carlimac]

On 8/30/2018 at 10:35 AM, Jane_Doe said:

What's the perceived conflict?  

Sorry, I haven't been following this issue too closely in the media and other places, as the amount of Catholic-bashing being done is beyond nauseating.  

Where are you hearing or reading Catholic bashing? I'm just hearing pretty matter of fact reporting in the media without much bashing at all. But go on Catholic forums and the CAtholics themselves are the harshest critics. I would be, too, if it happened on this scale in the LDS church. 

This, from one of the forums written by a Catholic: 

" Public outrage isn’t restricted to this Catholic scandal. Personally, I see blaming “anti-Catholics” as a deflection. As you say: “One child is one child too many”. This scandal involves 1,000 children by over 300 priests. “Anti-Catholics” didn’t commit the abuses. Those priests laid the fire and lit the match themselves."

When I read comments about saying “Oh see how the devil is attacking the church, oh see how protestants are gloating” etc etc it makes me feel like a boot coming down and crushing me into the mud with it’s heel. As if it’s not bad enough to have experienced the abuse in the first place, now I’m supposed to feel sorry for the poor Church who is so unfairly being judged for atrocities committed by and covered up by it’s ordained clergy.

No, the devil didn’t do it. No the gloaters aren’t responsible. Ordained clergy did it and protected other clergy who were also doing it for DECADES at the expense of thousands of victims.

The devil and Protestants would have zero to gloat about had these people not freely committed these acts in the first place. There is zero way to explain it away or point fingers at anyone but the abusers and those who protected them.

Instead I see some people still wanting to protect the Church and somehow skate over the reality. If the Catholic Church is truly what it claims to be, I guess the good news is members have nothing to worry about. It’s protected. This is a blip on the radar and eventually it will be business as usual again. For those who’s lives and souls were crushed by what happened it’s a bit harder to return to business as usual."

Here's another one:

Poster #1:"Honestly I'm not feeling anything." 

Poster #2:"

 

I had felt similarly. It bothered me like any story of abuse would. I didn’t feel particularly worse about it because of its connection to the Church. Until the Pennsylvania report came out.

Then I understood the enormity of what went on. The priest who married my wife and me and baptized our first child is on the list. He was a good guy. He was distinguished, engaging, savvy. He was kind to children and played golf with CEOs. He wasn’t “one of those priests.”

Well, it turns out he is one of those priests. 

Now all I see is hypocrisy. How can I trust the temporal institution maintained by the men who betrayed all of us? These are the men who decide whether to bind my sins on earth, the men who administer the sacraments, the men who tell me they are guided by the Holy Spirit."

My heart breaks for my Catholic friends!

Edited September 1, 2018 by carlimac

[Jane_Doe]

My heart does also break for my Catholic friends.  I think this is something that has to be handled with respect and sensitivity.  Sadly, those things are lacking in a lot of media venues. 

[john4truth]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:08 PM, Traveler said:

@anatess2, most likely, has one of the best insights on our forum into current problems - The Washington Post; not the best source of anything, is reporting that a high ranking Cardinal is calling for the Pope's resignation because the Pope allegedly knew of sex abuses for years and was part of the silent cover up.  I do not like speculation in such matters - but I believe this could hurt Christianity in the greater landscape of public opinion as much as or perhaps more so than the separation between much of Traditional Christian doctrine and Science.  

Many of the agnostics and atheists I know are difficult to engage in religious centered discussion just because they are "fed" up with religion as a whole.

 

The Traveler

All Christianity is a bad place, the time will come when we will be in hiding

[john4truth]

Does Cannon law allow for a priest to be a priest if they know he is a pedophile. I find no good can come from the ancient past but the world has a right to demand child protection. A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is pressumed innocent... but we must do a better job protecting children Canon law are not.

[prisonchaplain]

Big picture thought: One of the reasons that I generally prefer denominational churches to ones that are independent, or 'non-denominational,' is that organization usually brings a measure of accountability. There are exceptions, but when a church was built ground-up, largely on the charisma of a founding pastor/bishop/guru/etc. then the possibility for abuse, over time, grows. The theology (liberal, conservative, evangelical, mainline, etc.) matters not. Power tends to corrupt, and when the brand is built largely on a personality, attacks against that personality generally result in "circling the wagons."

When Big Name Megachurch with Big Name Pastor has a scandal, people are surprised, disappointed, and then move on. This story is difficult and somewhat frightening because the biggest, most organized church of all stands accused of systemic cover-up. Nevertheless, I suspect that the "systemic" is not total, but to be found in pockets. A very large church is trying to root out a tragic moral failure. I pray they succeed. It will be better for us all when they do.

Edited September 3, 2018 by prisonchaplain

[Traveler]

54 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

Big picture thought: One of the reasons that I generally prefer denominational churches to ones that are independent, or 'non-denominational,' is that organization usually brings a measure of accountability. There are exceptions, but when a church was built ground-up, largely on the charisma of a founding pastor/bishop/guru/etc. then the possibility for abuse, over time, grows. The theology (liberal, conservative, evangelical, mainline, etc.) matters not. Power tends to corrupt, and when the brand is built largely on a personality, attacks against that personality generally result in "circling the wagons."

When Big Name Megachurch with Big Name Pastor has a scandal, people are surprised, disappointed, and then move on. This story is difficult and somewhat frightening because the biggest, most organized church of all stands accused of systemic cover-up. Nevertheless, I suspect that the "systemic" is not total, but to be found in pockets. A very large church is trying to root out a tragic moral failure. I pray they succeed. It will be better for us all when they do.

I spent some time this year in France and was involved with a small group (all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that left with a French guide in Paris for a day trip to Normandy.   Our guide was licensed and an expert in French history - plus he is French.  And since we spent some hours driving to and from Normandy I had lots of time to chat about things.  I found the fellow very likable, kind, considerate and generally interested in people - both living and in past history.  Seldom to I find such honest, open and friendly people to be bitter and willing to express open contempt for religion.  As we talked he said that it is not so much religious people as it is institutional religion - in essence quite the opposite of your expression.  

He told me about several trips to Salt Lake City and visiting our temple square.  He told me that he loved our young optimistic missionaries in France even to express that he wished that more (not just in France but world wide) were like our missionaries - but he warned me that hardly anyone in France cares to hear about religion or attend any church.  He said that Churches are dying in Europe in general and sadly few religious people care or dare to explorer why.  He then told me of some French history around what we call "the French Revolution".  I responded that I was well aware of that biter civil war.  He said to me that perhaps I am not aware of the role of the Catholic Church in the French Revolution.  So I listened.

I was surprised to learn that Hitler was not the first engine of genocide in Europe.  He said King Louis XVI slaughtered thousands upon thousands of non-Catholic French citizens in an attempt to cleanse the population of anyone opposing the "Divine Right of Kings".  That King Louis XVI murdered men, women and children that were not Catholic besides all that were oppressed - that he did so openly and with the full support of the Catholic Church.  He then said that France was a religious strong hold for many, many hundreds of years and that there was a strong bond between the crown and the Catholic Church.  And as you (PC) has said - power corrupts.  And so he said to me that the French Revolution was not just a civil war to overthrow the crown but also to overthrow the single most powerful institutional Church in Europe - it was a war over religion as much as it was against the Royals.   The institutionalized Church that was the state church as an institution of power to force religion and contributions as taxes.  In other words the French Revolution was a bloody war against the crown and the most powerful religious institution in Europe.  He also reminded me that the pilgrims feeling Europe to the Americas did so for the express purpose to distance themselves from this "corrupt" religious institutions of Europe.  

This Frenchman was hard to hear - I have many good friends that are devout Catholic that I love, respect and care about deeply.  At the same time I was sad to learn why few doors in France are open to learn of any religion.  I am also concerned that the corruption of any institutionalized or non-denationalize church can and does hurt all church institutions and indeed all individuals of religious nature in the eyes of those that suffer from corruption.  But I am powerless to change anyone or anything but myself.  Never-the-less, where can someone so offended go for "safe haven" from those that abuse their power.  I would like to say - here - we me and those of my religious institution - but all of that has been said thousands of times before throughout much of human history - and it has not been true much more than it has been true.  

I do not doubt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but I have learned by sad experience as told in D&C 121 - the sad reality is that when men get what they think is a little authority - that more often than not - they will exercise unrighteous dominion. 

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, john4truth said:

All Christianity is a bad place, the time will come when we will be in hiding

I am not sure I agree with you assessment - perhaps we should discuss what it is that you think is "a bad place".

 

The Traveler

[john4truth]

17 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am not sure I agree with you assessment - perhaps we should discuss what it is that you think is "a bad place".

 

The Traveler

[john4truth]

The Muslims announced Christianity in the US will be destroyed and are teaching their Children this. Our Education system has converted to the big bang/spontaneous generation. The media is anti Christians.  Christians are fighting each other over who is right. Seems this is a perfect storm. All churches seem to be struggling. The majority of the US doesn't claim to be Christians . It seems like we are entering a time when our children will be challenged from every angle

 

[Sunday21]

20 hours ago, john4truth said:

The Muslims announced Christianity in the US will be destroyed and are teaching their Children this. Our Education system has converted to the big bang/spontaneous generation. The media is anti Christians.  Christians are fighting each other over who is right. Seems this is a perfect storm. All churches seem to be struggling. The majority of the US doesn't claim to be Christians . It seems like we are entering a time when our children will be challenged from every angle

 

Muslims don’t have a central religious leader like the pope or our prophet.They have individual leaders. So some Muslims may wish to fight the US but most  Muslims  think that these fighting Muslims are nuts. 

[john4truth]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Muslims don’t have a central religious leader like the pope or our prophet.They have individual leaders. So some Muslims may wish to fight the US but most  Muslims  think that these fighting Muslims are nuts.ls a pipe dream.

I have never seen any evidence they truly oppose violence except when they  are threatened.

Entire countries teach killing Christians!   I totally disagree how you minimize this and feel you are contradicting facts. The facts support my findings that the vast majority of Muslims have been taught since birth to eliminate non Muslims. You are only correct that the radicals that carry out the teachings are not the majority.  But I find no evidence the majority think they are nuts. The majority will not condemn radicals. They remain silent even with the worst terrorist. I have watched TV host all but beg for condemnations of course even non Muslims justify bombings if PC. I agree they don't just disagree between denominations they have mass killings of each other.  Of course the main stream media sugar coats things also. Soon Muslim holidays will be the only holiday in schools.  

 

It is crazy, in Germany government buildings are not forbidden to put up manger scenes, they are REQUIRED to have Christian decorations., In the US we stand for nothing. We are PC at the peril of Christianity. Our Education system teahes against God, without criticizing Muslims.

Let them worship what they please but we cannot replace Christ just to be tolerant. Extremism has become normal, justified, and accepted to the point of being made fools of. We need to wake up...

Edited September 4, 2018 by john4truth
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[john4truth]

On 8/31/2018 at 8:28 AM, anatess2 said:

They used to "ship them to the Americas".  They still do💥

 

 

[john4truth]

On 8/29/2018 at 9:03 AM, carlimac said:

Ok. That's what I wanted to know. I just wonder why you reject the claims when reports in the media (the Big Bad media)  and from countless people within the church including priests themselves claim there have been cover ups. 

I'm only interested in this because I'm a big proponent of truth.

LoL there are even claims pedophiles are becoming priest to have easy access and legal protection. This is not the first time Catholicism had organized planned violations of the laws of chastity. This being said somehow Christians must clean our act and.unite. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by john4truth
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