Is the Pope in trouble

[Blackmarch]

23 hours ago, Traveler said:

@anatess2, most likely, has one of the best insights on our forum into current problems - The Washington Post; not the best source of anything, is reporting that a high ranking Cardinal is calling for the Pope's resignation because the Pope allegedly knew of sex abuses for years and was part of the silent cover up.  I do not like speculation in such matters - but I believe this could hurt Christianity in the greater landscape of public opinion as much as or perhaps more so than the separation between much of Traditional Christian doctrine and Science.  

Many of the agnostics and atheists I know are difficult to engage in religious centered discussion just because they are "fed" up with religion as a whole.

 

The Traveler

it's not as bad as some of the things commited by the church and popes in the past. second as to whether the pope knew or not i'd wait until there is more than just allegation.

Smearing the purity of something or someone especially in regards to sexuality is an old tactic.

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by Blackmarch

[Blackmarch]

22 hours ago, Chilean said:

Ok, I shouldn't have said "Accomplice".

He failed to report a crime, he concealed the crime. He, or anyone, could be charged with accessory after the fact, if he wasn't actually present during the commission of a crime, but took actions to conceal the crime or help the perpetrators avoid capture.

So yes, he is guilty of a crime.

 

 

he is also has a duty to protect the church.

[carlimac]

3 hours ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, then we are speaking past each other.  When you say "OUR OWN CHURCH"... that is a completely different matter than saying "individuals who are members of the church".  If you believe the LDS Church covers up crime I don't know why you're still a member of said Church.

We probably aren't making ourselves clear to each other. When I ask, "Do you believe there have been no cover ups?" I'm talking about any individual priests, bishops, archbishops- whomever it may be that's in charge in the locale where the abuse happened. Did any  hide the crimes in an effort to protect the Church at large?  In no way did I ever insinuate or think that the Catholic makes a general practice of hiding all transgressions by priests.  But some individuals within the Catholic Church actually have not followed Canon Law as you describe it. 

 Same goes for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It does not make a general practice of hiding imperfections to save face. But individual bishops haven't always reported things to the authorities that they should have, hoping to keep our name or a friend out of the news in connection with anything dirty or ugly. 

Eventually the truth comes out and poo poo hits the fan. 

 

[anatess2]

 

26 minutes ago, carlimac said:

We probably aren't making ourselves clear to each other. When I ask, "Do you believe there have been no cover ups?" I'm talking about any individual priests, bishops, archbishops- whomever it may be that's in charge in the locale where the abuse happened. Did any  hide the crimes in an effort to protect the Church at large?  In no way did I ever insinuate or think that the Catholic makes a general practice of hiding all transgressions by priests.  But some individuals within the Catholic Church actually have not followed Canon Law as you describe it. 

And this was my answer which you then exclaimed "Oh boy!" to:

7 hours ago, anatess2 said:

I can't speak for sins committed by sinners when I'm not in the room or have no intimate knowledge of the case.   But moving the accused to another location is EXACTLY what Canon Law prescribes.  Having the sinner moved (you can't just move a priest without filing a request and giving a reason) AND given access to children when the move was done BECAUSE of sins committed against children is a serious accusation.  This is an accusation that not only did the priest commit a grievous sin, the Church hierarchy itself APPROVES of the commission and wants it to go on.  It would be something like a case of a pedophile ring entrenched within the Church.  Yes, there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there about pedophile rings not only in Hollywood but also in institutions like the US political class (pizzagate) and the Catholic Church.  I'll believe it of Hollywood, I reject the claim about the Catholic Church.

Edited August 29, 2018 by anatess2

[carlimac]

I will be as clear as I can be.This is what I have found in my research over the last week or so.  There have been thousands and thousands of cases of sexual abuse of Catholic children and adults by priests in many parts of the world. Some priests did it and told their victims to keep it quiet. Some priests threatened their victims. One incident (probably hundreds more) involved the priest instructing  the young girl to go to another parrish to confess. Some priests confessed their own sins at confessional. The priest listening wouldn't tell anyone what they heard. Some didn't tell because they, too, were having sex after taking vows of celibacy. These men may or may not have been sent away to pray and reflect on their sins. The ones that did mostly were found out and eventually reported. Many many priests didn't tell what they knew about others' involvement in sex with children and adults. They didn't tell police which I believe is something that one would do in almost any country of the world, Canon Law or no Canon Law. Nor did they tell their superiors. Many victims were paid off and were made to sign a release saying the Catholic church held no responsibility.  This all is a cover up!! It's blatant. It's intentionally hiding something that is abhorrent in the sight of God. It was rampant many years ago. A large part of the church have responded to the new reforms put in place around 2002 and it has helped a lot. But the sad thing is that the victims (from before the reforms) lives were ruined in many cases and no one from the church was there to help them.  Who could even calculate how many are still out there.  

I hate to say this but in many ways, this is a pedophile ring- within the Catholic Church. Another sad fact is that there is similar but perhaps not as widespread abuse in other churches, too. When I hear about this I feel such a pit of despair in my stomach for humanity. 

Now, I'm not trying to give the Catholic church a black eye. As I said before, some of my Catholic friends are the loveliest people I know. It's the Catholic members who are spitting mad at their leaders, who are shouting from the rooftops that they have been lied to, hurt, robbed, etc. . That's why what I have read on this forum seems so unbelievably opposite to what is out there. If there is any group effort to change the church , it's coming from it's own members. Not the US government, not liberals who want to take down Kavanaugh or Trump, not the media. It's the victims and the mothers of these poor kids and the families of parents who are still dealing with the aftermath of the abuse decades later.  

Does the cover-up and lack of accountability go all the way up to the pope? I hope not. I want to trust that he's a really good and honest man. But I just don't know.  I guess we'll see over the next while. 

 

Edited August 29, 2018 by carlimac

[Jane_Doe]

On 8/28/2018 at 1:42 PM, anatess2 said:

Here you go:

 

What y'all call "covering up" is the Canon Law process of seclusion (pretty much the same as putting the guy in jail except jail is not just a holding cell... seclusion is where the priest goes through the reconciliation process to save his soul while being prevented from having access to the public).  In the Philippines, the law recognizes monasteries as qualified institutions to conduct a house arrest for criminal priests while remaining under the jurisdiction of the Philippine justice system.  No such thing exists in US Law.  Therefore, they call it "hiding the priest".

The Catholic Church doesn't call them "crimes" rather they call them "sin".  Crimes are secular judgments.  Lying to your mother may not be a crime, but it is a sin and would have Canon Law consequences (may need to confess to the priest and get absolution).  Sexual predation is a mortal sin - that is, the consequence of which is eternal burning in the fires of hell, especially for somebody that has made the covenant to God to minister to his flock.  It is, therefore, the primary objective of the Catholic Church to save that man's soul as well as the soul of the victims.

Remember, the Catholic Church is not just a religious institution.  It is also a system of government.

Thank you for sharing this @anatess2, it really helps out.  

Just to make sure I'm getting the complete picture: Catholic's don't have anything like the LDS 12th Article of Faith wherein laws of the land are also to be obeyed?  

It's just something easier for my brain to wrap around-- as when an LDS leader gravely sins, they undergo secular as well as church discipline.  

Edited August 29, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[anatess2]

13 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Thank you for sharing this @anatess2, it really helps out.  

Just to make sure I'm getting the complete picture: Catholic's don't have anything like the LDS 12th Article of Faith wherein laws of the land are also to be obeyed?  

It's just something easier for my brain to wrap around-- as when an LDS leader gravely sins, they undergo secular as well as church discipline.  

Not in the same manner as the LDS.  Catholicism historically has been the establishment of theocratic governments through the conversion of Emperors and Monarchs.  That's pretty much how Europe was formed.  The end of the colonization era kinda ended that practice too.  Now, the Church tries to influence governments through the democratic participation of its members.  The Philippines, one of the few Catholic majority country, is well known for the active influence of the Catholic Church on government affairs.  For example, right now, the Pope is on a mission to influence governments to end/limit the practice of death sentences.  He even spoke in Congress about it a few years ago.  The Philippines already banned death sentences a long time ago.

In any case, the Church teaches to obey the law of the land as far as it does not defy Canon Law.  Canon Law, of course considered as God's law, supercedes any man-made law.  Canon Law gets modernized once in a while, sometimes in major ways like during Vatican Councils and sometimes in specific and targeted ways like John Paul II's changes to dealing with Priests committing crimes against the law of the land.  But Canon Law's adherence to the gospel does not change - so its primary objective is to save one's soul even when such an effort means you need to defy the law of the land to do so.  Give to Ceasar and so on but you don't give to Ceasar what is God's.

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

In any case, the Church teaches to obey the law of the land as far as it does not defy Canon Law.  Canon Law, of course considered as God's law, supercedes any man-made law.  

I'm a little confused now.  Is there a perceived conflict between Cannon law and secular law in this issues?  

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I'm a little confused now.  Is there a perceived conflict between Cannon law and secular law in this issues?  

Oh yes.  That's why the pedophile priests is a can of worms.  Because Canon Law process conflicts with the law of the land.

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Oh yes.  That's why the pedophile priests is a can of worms.  Because Canon Law process conflicts with the law of the land.

What's the perceived conflict?  

Sorry, I haven't been following this issue too closely in the media and other places, as the amount of Catholic-bashing being done is beyond nauseating.  

[anatess2]

34 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

What's the perceived conflict?  

Sorry, I haven't been following this issue too closely in the media and other places, as the amount of Catholic-bashing being done is beyond nauseating.  

Ok... the main conflict is that US Law requires that if someone gets accused of sexual crimes against children, it has to be reported immediately to the authorities.  Sexual crimes against children, in Canon Law, is a mortal sin.  A priest committing mortal sin has no chance of salvation unless he goes through reconciliation (repentance) which is a long and intensive process.  Reconciliation in Catholicism can only be done before death.  So, Canon Law conflicts with US Law as US Law has zero salvific provisions.  Reporting the accused to the authorities and going through the secular justice system before any Canon investigation has been done to verify the state of the sinner's soul and to prepare the sinner for reconciliation could end up as a damnation of his soul to eternal hell, especially as it is common for priests to either get killed or commit suicide when these things come to light.  Therefore, it has been the practice that the priests accused of mortal sin is sequestered while Vatican personnel go through the investigation.  If the priest is deemed strong enough to withstand secular justice then he is surrendered to local authorities to satisfy the demands of the community and the Church works with the justice system to maintain access to the priest so the reconciliation process can hopefully continue.  This was changed by JPII in ~2002.  Now all priests have to be surrendered to local authorities and the Church works hard to find a way to save the priest's soul while he goes through secular justice.  But this has not stopped people from accusing the Church of "hiding the priest" or "cover up" 16 years later.

Edited August 30, 2018 by anatess2

[estradling75]

35 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

What's the perceived conflict?  

Sorry, I haven't been following this issue too closely in the media and other places, as the amount of Catholic-bashing being done is beyond nauseating.  

Here is an outsider summarizing it from his perspective.

Nothing is more important then saving a soul from Hell/Damnation. Catholics do not believe in work for the dead so this all has to happen while alive.

For the victim this is reasonably easy... you help them heal until they can forgive.  This can take along time but it is pretty straight forward as long as they do not die.

For the criminal they need to truly and sincerely repent and gain forgiveness.  Given the nature of the crime this is neither quick nor easy.  But it still has to been done while alive.

Clearly while this is happening you need to restrict the criminal activities, so do you put him in a local jail... with high recidivism, a good chance of being murdered, (People who harm little kids do not historically do not do well in typical jails), and no real concern for his soul?  Or put him in a remote monastery away from temptation where the local Abbot (or whatever) knows of his crime and both restricts his actions and tries to save his soul?

Given the setup the answer should be really clear.  That being said most people do not recognize Cannon Law as valid nor do they understand how it works.  All they see is an offender being pulled out of the justice system (until the most recent changes to Cannon Law) they expected to deliver justice, and moved elsewhere out of reach.  So they think 'cover up'.  So they think 'helping them get away with it'.  This is aggravated and made worse when through human failing and weakness such cover ups do happen in defiance of Cannon Law

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by estradling75

[anatess2]

12 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Here is an outsider summarizing it from his perspective.

Nothing is more important then saving a soul from Hell/Damnation. Catholics do not believe in work for the dead so this all has to happen while alive.

For the victim this is reasonably easy... you help them heal until they can forgive.  This can take along time but it is pretty straight forward as long as they do not die.

For the criminal they need to truly and sincerely repent and gain forgiveness.  Given the nature of the crime this is neither quick nor easy.  But it still has to been done while alive.

Clearly while this is happening you need to restrict the criminal activities, so do you put him in a local jail... with high recidivism, a good chance of being murdered, (People who harm little kids do not historically do not do well in typical jails), and no real concern for his soul?  Or put him in a remote monastery away from temptation where the local Abbot (or whatever) knows of his crime and both restricts his actions and tries to save his soul?

Given the setup the answer should be really clear.  That being said most people do not recognize Cannon Law as valid nor do they understand how it works.  All they see is an offender being pulled out of the justice system (until the most recent changes to Cannon Law) they expected to deliver justice, and moved elsewhere out of reach.  So they think 'cover up'.  So they think 'helping them get away with it'.  This is aggravated and made worse when through human failing and weakness such cover ups do happen in defiance of Cannon Law

 

 

estradling, you explain it much better than I can.  I now give you authorization to be my mouthpiece for the rest of the week.

 

Just one addendum to this otherwise perfect answer - "For the victim this is reasonably easy... you help them heal until they can forgive.  This can take along time but it is pretty straight forward as long as they do not die."  Unlike the mortal sinner, the victim's inability to forgive or his continuing to harbor vengeance in his heart does not sentence him to eternal hell.  Rather, he may still qualify for heaven if he dies before successful reconciliation through the cleansing of purgatory as his actions were the result of a severe sin done to him.

Edited August 30, 2018 by anatess2

[Jane_Doe]

12 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Ok... the main conflict is that US Law requires that if someone gets accused of sexual crimes against children, it has to be reported immediately to the authorities.  Sexual crimes against children, in Canon Law, is a mortal sin.  A priest committing mortal sin has no chance of salvation unless he goes through reconciliation (repentance) which is a long and intensive process.  Reconciliation in Catholicism can only be done before death.  So, Canon Law conflicts with US Law as US Law has zero salvific provisions.  Reporting the accused to the authorities and going through the secular justice system before any Canon investigation has been done to verify the state of the sinner's soul and to prepare the sinner for reconciliation could end up as a damnation of his soul to eternal hell, especially as it is common for priests to either get killed or commit suicide when these things come to light.  Therefore, it has been the practice that the priests accused of mortal sin is sequestered while Vatican personnel go through the investigation.  If the priest is deemed strong enough to withstand secular justice then he is surrendered to local authorities to satisfy the demands of the community and the Church works with the justice system to maintain access to the priest so the reconciliation process can hopefully continue.  This was changed by JPII in ~2002.  Now all priests have to be surrendered to local authorities and the Church works hard to find a way to save the priest's soul while he goes through secular justice.  But this has not stopped people from accusing the Church of "hiding the priest" or "cover up" 16 years later.

I do not know any states where the death penalty applies to pedophilia crimes (no matter how severe those crimes are), so I'm not sure the relationship here.  Is there a reason a person cannot go through reconciliation while in a jail?

11 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Clearly while this is happening you need to restrict the criminal activities, so do you put him in a local jail... with high recidivism, a good chance of being murdered, (People who harm little kids do not historically do not do well in typical jails), and no real concern for his soul? 

If the un-safety of jails is the concern, would it not be logical to campaign for measures to make jails safer for everyone?

Edited August 30, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[NeuroTypical]

A difference between my church and the Catholic church.

My church: You confess molesting a child, your bishop calls a 1-800 number and speaks to legal counsel about federal, state, and local laws, which are then followed.

Catholic church: Your mileage may vary.

 

Catholics, I get it.  But I'm acquainted with numerous child victims of sexual abuse.  On their behalf, I have to say, the notion that a perpetrator can confess a crime through Catholic channels and see Catholic authority not report those crimes?  That's highly offensive.  No thank you.  That is not right.  Especially (and yes, I am acquainted with instances of this as well), especially when the confessor goes on to molest other children.    Here in America, you sexually molest a child, you get the police involved.  No exceptions.  The victims deserve as much.  Potential future victims deserve as much.  My responsibility to love everyone does not carry over to protecting them from consequences to their actions.  Love thy neighbor does not equal keeping quiet about what they did.  It does not equal inaction resulting in giving them access to future victims.  

 

I know a victim, who might not have been one, had someone called the cops after a prior victimization.
I know another victim, who might not have been one, had her abuser received justice and help because he himself had been abused.

It's not something that should be kept quiet.  Evil hides in darkness and silence and keeping people from knowing the truth. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[estradling75]

6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

I do not know any states where the death penalty applies to pedophilia crimes (no matter how severe those crimes are), so I'm not sure the relationship here.  Is there a reason a person cannot go through reconciliation while in a jail?

If the un-safety of jails is the concern, would it not be logical to campaign for measures to make jails safer for everyone?

It is logical now and that is what they are doing (or trying to do) now with the changes made to Cannon Law.

But historically the Catholic Church has had a lot of secular power. (aka see @anatess2 description of things in the Philippines) They did not need to in the past, only now is the need apparent and change takes time

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

I do not know any states where the death penalty applies to pedophilia crimes (no matter how severe those crimes are), so I'm not sure the relationship here.  Is there a reason a person cannot go through reconciliation while in a jail?

If the un-safety of jails is the concern, would it not be logical to campaign for measures to make jails safer for everyone?

These people have severe issues.  A secular jail - even an American jail that is so much more "nice" compared to other country's jail (imagine jail in the Philippines where the wardens cook drugs in the basement) is not a good environment to facilitate the kind of healing of the soul required for these things.  Mentorship in the monastery is a monk's existence where all the sinner's activities is to wake up and pray and read/copy/study scriptures, sing hymns,  reflect, ponder, repent, sleep while either alone or in the company of his spiritual mentor without the distraction of other bad people or the temptation of being able to surrender to their weaknesses through/with/on other bad people.

1 minute ago, Jane_Doe said:

If the un-safety of jails is the concern, would it not be logical to campaign for measures to make jails safer for everyone?

Sure.  And the Catholic Church has been doing this for centuries.

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

 

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

These people have severe issues.  A secular jail - even an American jail that is so much more "nice" compared to other country's jail (imagine jail in the Philippines where the wardens cook drugs in the basement) is not a good environment to facilitate the kind of healing of the soul required for these things.  Mentorship in the monastery is a monk's existence where all the sinner's activities is to wake up and pray and read/copy/study scriptures, sing hymns,  reflect, ponder, repent, sleep while either alone or in the company of his spiritual mentor without the distraction of other bad people or the temptation of being able to surrender to their weaknesses through/with/on other bad people.

But aren't majority of the inmates in Philippines jail Catholic (simply because majority of the general population is Catholic)?  Why not the same concern for all those souls too?

4 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sure.  And the Catholic Church has been doing this for centuries.

Ah, I did not know that.  Thank you for the info. It makes a lot more things make more sense and resolves a lot of my confusion.  

 

[anatess2]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

A difference between my church and the Catholic church.

My church: You confess molesting a child, your bishop calls a 1-800 number and speaks to legal counsel about federal, state, and local laws, which are then followed.

Catholic church: Your mileage may vary.

 

Catholics, I get it.  But I'm acquainted with numerous child victims of sexual abuse.  On their behalf, I have to say, the notion that a perpetrator can confess a crime through Catholic channels and see Catholic authority not report those crimes?  That's highly offensive.  No thank you.  That is not right.  Especially (and yes, I am acquainted with instances of this as well), especially when the confessor goes on to molest other children.    Here in America, you sexually molest a child, you get the police involved.  No exceptions.  The victims deserve as much.  Potential future victims deserve as much.  My responsibility to love everyone does not carry over to protecting them from consequences to their actions.  Love thy neighbor does not equal keeping quiet about what they did.  It does not equal inaction resulting in giving them access to future victims.  

 

I know a victim, who might not have been one, had someone called the cops after a prior victimization.
I know another victim, who might not have been one, had her abuser received justice because he himself had been abused.

It's not something that should be kept quiet.  Evil hides in darkness and silence and keeping people from knowing the truth. 

Sure, you would have this stance because you trust your justice system more than the Catholic Church's justice system.  But to say that your justice system is better because... they don't end up molesting other children?  You sure about that?  There's a reason pedophiles are marked with a scarlet letter in your neighborhood... because they do just that.

The victims don't deserve vengeance.  They deserve healing.  Healing SHOULD NOT depend on whether the perpetrator got their consequence.  That's vengeance. 

And Canon Law is NOT designed to "protect them from consequences to their actions".   On the contrary, they are made to face the consequence of their actions so that they will repent and be reconciled.

But yeah, I get it.  American justice system, though flawed, is pretty good.  You go to the Philippines... ugh.  China, double ugh.  Any country in Asia, South America, Africa... ugh.

 

 

[anatess2]

Just now, Jane_Doe said:

 

But aren't majority of the inmates in Philippines jail Catholic (simply because majority of the general population is Catholic)?  Why not the same concern for all those souls too?

 

Of course it's the same concern.  But just because you sin/commit a crime doesn't mean you are damned to eternal hell.  This is the same in LDS - your knowledge is relevant to the consequence of your sin.  Priests, though, have all knowledge and made the covenant of Holy Orders.  Going against that vow is very dire indeed.

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

But yeah, I get it.  American justice system, though flawed, is pretty good.  You go to the Philippines... ugh.  China, double ugh.  Any country in Asia, South America, Africa... ugh.

This is true.

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, anatess2 said:

Of course it's the same concern.  But just because you sin/commit a crime doesn't mean you are damned to eternal hell.  This is the same in LDS - your knowledge is relevant to the consequence of your sin.  Priests, though, have all knowledge and made the covenant of Holy Orders.  Going against that vow is very dire indeed.

For clarification, I was thinking specifically of the non-priest inmates that had committed mortal sins.  

[NeuroTypical]

31 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Sure, you would have this stance because you trust your justice system more than the Catholic Church's justice system. 

Pardon me.  I've said nothing about trust in the justice system.  I have that stance because I believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Mandatory reporting laws

Again, with Catholicism, your mileage may vary.  I talk to them about this issue, I hear a lot about "the Holy Catholic church was around long before your system of laws, your entire nation for that matter.  We know what we're doing."

 

Quote

The victims don't deserve vengeance.  They deserve healing.  Healing SHOULD NOT depend on whether the perpetrator got their consequence.  That's vengeance.

Pardon me.  Victims deserve justice.  Of course vengeance is not helpful.  But last I heard, justice was still a good thing.   Can mercy rob justice?  Christ provides a good way to satisfy both.  Christ doesn't show up in the emergency room as nurses are trying to get a distraught mother's consent to do a rape kit on her daughter, so they'll have a chance of convicting the perp.  

LDS.org: Justice

 

Quote

But yeah, I get it.  American justice system, though flawed, is pretty good.  You go to the Philippines... ugh.  China, double ugh.  Any country in Asia, South America, Africa... ugh.

Agreed.  Relative to other nations, the US system is ok.  But I wouldn't say 'pretty good'.  My wife and I helped put a guy behind bars for this stuff.   Wife attended two parole hearings.  First hearing was quick - basically "So, you were mandated to get counseling classes.  You've gone to none of them.  Pedophiles belong behind bars, see you in two years."   Second hearing was longer.  Dude had done some classes, and the prison overcrowding problem meant the system was trying to push him out.  "You finish class x and y, and keep your nose clean, you'll be out next year."  Dude was out the following year, and given parole conditions.  Check in with PA, register as sex-offender, keep your nose clean.   Dude had something most people in his situation didn't have - a family support system.  They gave him a job, helped him keep his nose clean.   Most felons aren't so lucky.

His victim is doing ok.  Some counseling, a loving parent.  She's in college now, takes a mean selfie.  She saw the church excommunicate dood, and she saw the cops haul him off and lock him up for 5 years.  Most victims aren't so lucky.
 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[anatess2]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Pardon me.  I've said nothing about trust in the justice system.  I have that stance because I believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Mandatory reporting laws

 

That's LDS belief, not Catholic.  That's why that's on the Article of Faith because that's a unique stance made under the divine inspiration of the US Constitution.  Catholics do not believe themselves subject to corrupt kings in the same manner that Peter would rather face crucifixion than to do the bidding of the Emperor.

 

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Pardon me.  Victims deserve justice.  Of course vengeance is not helpful.  But last I heard, justice was still a good thing.   Can mercy rob justice?  Christ provides a good way to satisfy both.  Christ doesn't show up in the emergency room as nurses are trying to get a distraught mother's consent to do a rape kit on her daughter, so they'll have a chance of convicting the perp.  

LDS.org: Justice

 

When you're Catholic, your justice system is Canon Law and you believe it is a Godly law installed by Christ on the Rock of Peter.  Today, only the Vatican and the Knights of Malta are sovereign governments under Canon Law.   The Catholics have since ceded the governments of Europe to secular Constitutions.  The US is under the US Constitution.  To say that any other justice system is more just than Canon Law justice is... well,  non-Catholic.  So this is not a matter of the perp not getting justice.  This is a matter of... which law is Christs' law?  You believe the justice systems of kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates fulfills Christ's Law.  The Catholics do not.  You believe justice under Canon Law is absent justice.  The Catholics do not.

And it is quite insulting to posit that the Catholic government has no compassion for a distraught mother and her raped child as they fulfill the demands of mercy and justice.

 

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Agreed.  Relative to other nations, the US system is ok.  But I wouldn't say 'pretty good'.  My wife and I helped put a guy behind bars for this stuff.   Wife attended two parole hearings.  First hearing was quick - basically "So, you were mandated to get counseling classes.  You've gone to none of them.  Pedophiles belong behind bars, see you in two years."   Second hearing was longer.  Dude had done some classes, and the prison overcrowding problem meant the system was trying to push him out.  "You finish class x and y, and keep your nose clean, you'll be out next year."  Dude was out the following year, and given parole conditions.  Check in with PA, register as sex-offender, keep your nose clean.   Dude had something most people in his situation didn't have - a family support system.  They gave him a job, helped him keep his nose clean.   

His victim is doing ok.  Some counseling, a loving parent.  She's in college now, takes a mean selfie.  She saw the church excommunicate dood, and she saw the cops haul him off and lock him up for 5 years.  Not every victim is so lucky.
 

 

So why argue that American Law justice is justice while Canon Law justice is not???  Well, I actually know the answer to this question... because you're LDS.

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

I appreciate you sharing the Catholic perspective, @anatess2.  Obviously it differs from my LDS perspective, but it really helps me get a better understanding and appreciation of what's going on with Catholics.