How soon is Jesus coming?


Chilean
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I wish...I wish..that it would happen already! I have huge report to write next week. Please, please come. Plus math in my area has become more difficult. I need an emoji for begging and pleading. Also there is no emoji for saying ‘Sorry’ 😐 Yes there is! Look what just popped up! 

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1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

Plus math in my area has become more difficult.

What, the laws of the universe have changed in some small math-distortion pocket in your little corner of Canada?  For reasons scientists have yet to discover, any time a "3" appears in a number there, the actual value is "3.371", thus making math more difficult?

🙏:please::pray:

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I hope I will be alive to see it, but I'm 63 and a recent convert.

So I will probably witness it on the other side of the veil.

I have been told His return is imminent.

Edited by Michael Griessel
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18 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am beginning to feel that He is coming soon. Especially with the direction we are receiving this Conference.

It would be great if he came soon...

But there is so much that needs to happen prior to that.  I'm not sure how soon is soon.

I know some have had that they will see him stated in their Patriarchal blessings, but I cannot seem to find any such promise in mine that I'll make it to the millennium intact.  Then again, with my age, that may not mean much.  I could pass away pretty rapidly (at which point my time to see the Lord will be sooner rather than later). 

The world just seems to be full of wickedness these days and the amount seems to just keep growing exponentially.  I wonder at times how much more wicked it can become before it explodes forth in that the entire world is encompassed with it and there will be no escape or way to change them without simply destroying the entire population of the world (ergo...the flood...but with some other type of thing to accomplish such death on such a great scale).

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2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

But there is so much that needs to happen prior to that.  I'm not sure how soon is soon.

Someone on here suggested that the Lord is not waiting for the wicked to become wicked enough, but for the righteous to become righteous enough.  As soon as I read that, something in me said "yes, that is the truth".  In light of the past two conferences, I suspect President Nelson is helping us to make that happen - and that the sooner it happens, the easier it will be on the righteous (and those trying to become righteous).  What's more, the more righteous any given individual becomes, the more wicked the world will seem to them.

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2 hours ago, zil said:

Someone on here suggested that the Lord is not waiting for the wicked to become wicked enough, but for the righteous to become righteous enough.  As soon as I read that, something in me said "yes, that is the truth".  In light of the past two conferences, I suspect President Nelson is helping us to make that happen - and that the sooner it happens, the easier it will be on the righteous (and those trying to become righteous).  What's more, the more righteous any given individual becomes, the more wicked the world will seem to them.

The Lord is not "waiting." There is a set date, the Lord just wants us prepared for the day by increasing our level of righteousness.

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21 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

I am beginning to feel that He is coming soon. Especially with the direction we are receiving this Conference.

I agree, but I wonder how many generations of saints thought the same thing and have passed?  For example:  This conference Elder Ballard spoke of President Joseph F. Smith and D&C 138.  I imagine that when such a grand revelation came forth many people saw it as a sign of the imminent coming of the Lord.  I imagine they saw the same sign in the revelation on the priesthood.  Of course, neither of those was really all that long ago on the Lord's time scale, but I wonder how much more will happen first?  I could be old and dead before He comes and it would still be soon; of course, it could be in just a few years as well.  I suppose we will know when it happens!

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47 minutes ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

The Lord is not "waiting." There is a set date, the Lord just wants us prepared for the day by increasing our level of righteousness.

This is probably true, but also misleading. The Lord will return when his Saints are prepared. Until then, he will not.

Does the Lord in his foreknowledge see the time of his return? Surely he does. Does this mean that our actions and preparations are of no consequence? Of course not.

Never confuse God's omniscience with predestination or "fate".

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15 hours ago, person0 said:

I agree, but I wonder how many generations of saints thought the same thing and have passed?

Looking forward to his return is a positive thing in that it gives you hope and meaning even if he didnt or wont come in your lifetime.

I personally have come to dislike it when people say "We must prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ" especially in the context of getting us to be more obedient. I much rather prefer the words "We must prepare to meet Jesus Christ" because this implies meeting him  if he did return to earth tomorrow or if you died tomorrow and met him on the other side.

Edited by priesthoodpower
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7 hours ago, priesthoodpower said:

I personally have come to dislike it when people say "We must prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ" especially in the context of getting us to be more obedient. I much rather prefer the words "We must prepare to meet Jesus Christ" because this implies meeting him  if he did return to earth tomorrow or if you died tomorrow and met him on the other side.

They are saying different things. "We must prepare to meet Jesus Christ" is a call for personal preparation. "We must prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ" is a call for us to ready our society and the kingdom of God.

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On 10/8/2018 at 10:43 AM, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

The Lord is not "waiting." There is a set date, the Lord just wants us prepared for the day by increasing our level of righteousness.

True enough, and addressed well by @Vort's reply.  The idea which struck me is that the Lord's plan is to come when the saints are ready for him, not when the wicked are ripe enough (though our focus historically seems to have been on the Lord coming when the wicked are ripe enough).  This quote from Hugh Nibley (Approaching Zion, chapter 14)expresses well the idea I take from all this - that the prophet is showing the way for individuals to choose righteousness and thereby avoid the fate of the masses:

Quote

Prophecy tells us that things are going to change and that there is nothing we can do to stop it. Certain things are certainly going to happen. Must we therefore resign ourselves to fate? Not at all. There is a vital rule that leaves the door wide open to effective individual repentance and escape. We have Professor Heisenberg to thank for that. He found that though you can predict with absolute certainty how masses of particles are going to act, you can never predict how any one particle is going to behave. That is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which used to be called “the free will of the atom.” The single particle is unpredictable; only the mass is absolutely bound to behave according to the unimpeachable laws of physics.13 In the same way one can prophesy with absolute certainty what a nation or people or society is going to do: you can talk about aggregates and predict the behavior of masses, but you can never deny any individual the freedom to repent and go the other way. “Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil.” The prophets and Professor Heisenberg show us the way out. You do not have to wait for the group to change, for the society to repent, nor do you have to change your ways to comply with theirs; the individual is free to ignore the multitude, and only he is free. Only an individual can repent. Repent is a reflexive verb—you can’t repent somebody else or force anybody else; you just repent. The clear rule for assuring desirable change is set forth in 2 Nephi: “As many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews who will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son” (2 Nephi 30:2).

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58 minutes ago, zil said:

True enough, and addressed well by @Vort's reply.  The idea which struck me is that the Lord's plan is to come when the saints are ready for him, not when the wicked are ripe enough (though our focus historically seems to have been on the Lord coming when the wicked are ripe enough).  This quote from Hugh Nibley (Approaching Zion, chapter 14)expresses well the idea I take from all this - that the prophet is showing the way for individuals to choose righteousness and thereby avoid the fate of the masses:

That brings up the what if question though.  What if the saints never get ready for him and are perpetually NOT ready.  Does that mean the second coming would be put off forever?

We know the tendency for men to fall into wickedness and that the natural course of the natural man is to be sinful.  In patterns that seem predictable in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon it seems that inevitably without correction mankind (as a whole) will fall into a sinful and prideful way of living. 

When does the Lord come if the Saints never are ready enough or ready for him?

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1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

That brings up the what if question though.  What if the saints never get ready for him and are perpetually NOT ready.  Does that mean the second coming would be put off forever?

Given that the Lord already knows there will be a second coming, presumably it can't be put off forever. :)

I figure this is part of the whole "increasing wickedness" and "hurry up and get your own conversion" divergence.  Whether Satan is just upping his game or the Lord is allowing him to up his game, the two camps are diverging and folks are being "forced" to pick sides.  Eventually, the sides will be sufficiently defined / distinct / separated, and apparently the wicked will all be ripe enough for destruction (if not already) and the righteous will be righteous enough not to die of shock when it happens - and once that state is reached (regardless of the numbers or who's where), the Lord will come.

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10 minutes ago, zil said:

Given that the Lord already knows there will be a second coming, presumably it can't be put off forever. :)

I figure this is part of the whole "increasing wickedness" and "hurry up and get your own conversion" divergence.  Whether Satan is just upping his game or the Lord is allowing him to up his game, the two camps are diverging and folks are being "forced" to pick sides.  Eventually, the sides will be sufficiently defined / distinct / separated, and apparently the wicked will all be ripe enough for destruction (if not already) and the righteous will be righteous enough not to die of shock when it happens - and once that state is reached (regardless of the numbers or who's where), the Lord will come.

I see the Book of Mormon as both a history of the Nephite civilization as well as gospel teachings that are also an allegory for our time.  Just as the Nephites saw great wickedness before the visitation of the Lord in America which led to many centuries of peace and righteousness, I see it as a forewarning and blueprint of what our own civilization will be like right before the second coming.

In this, the people spared were not spared because they were necessarily righteous (and in fact it alludes to the idea that at least some of them were involved with sin in their mournings at the end of chapter 8 of 3rd Nephi), but only that they were more righteous than those that were destroyed.  They were the ones that had not killed the Saints and not cast out the prophets and stoned them.

Based on that, it could get very dire and grim for the Saints right before the second coming if we see the Book of Mormon as also being an foreshadowing of what the world will be like in our days before the second coming of the Lord.

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On 10/9/2018 at 6:19 AM, Vort said:

They are saying different things. "We must prepare to meet Jesus Christ" is a call for personal preparation. "We must prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ" is a call for us to ready our society and the kingdom of God.

Understood, however It conflicts with what zil said just a couple of posts down.

(from Hugh Nipley).. masses cannot be controlled but we can control our individual selves (we can repent)

18 hours ago, zil said:

Hugh Nibley (Approaching Zion, chapter 14)expresses well the idea I take from all this - that the prophet is showing the way for individuals to choose righteousness and thereby avoid the fate of the masses:

Professor Heisenberg.. found that though you can predict with absolute certainty how masses of particles are going to act, you can never predict how any one particle is going to behave... In the same way one can prophesy with absolute certainty what a nation or people or society is going to do:....but you can never deny any individual the freedom to repent and go the other way... The prophets and Professor Heisenberg show us the way out. You do not have to wait for the group to change, for the society to repent, nor do you have to change your ways to comply with theirs; the individual is free to ignore the multitude, and only he is free. Only an individual can repent. Repent is a reflexive verb—you can’t repent somebody else or force anybody else; you just repent. 

When our leaders use the term "We must prepare for the second coming of Jesus Christ", if we cant control the masses, and in this case I am referring to the wards and LDS congregation masses, then its basically a call to repentance to each individual using a reward system in which no one really knows if the reward exists (Christs return), critics would say its manipulation. I have heard this argument from members who have left the church or are inactive and I can understand how they feel.

In church terms you cant "ready a society" without the individuals, for example serving as a bishop is a contribution to "preparing the saints (society)", but one cannot have that calling, and other callings, unless worthy. To "ready our society" basically is a call for individuals to be worthy to operate and serve in the Lords church, without worthy (repentant) servants there is no leadership and no Kingdom of God on earth.

My grandfather retired at 70 and died at 96 in 2003. He was a stk patriarch for 30 yrs and a very righteous, faithful saint. The last 20yrs of his life he sat on the edge of his couch watching TV keeping track of world events, all the wars, the economy etc..Every year that passed by he was more sure that the end times were fast approaching, he knew that no one knew the time or place but seeing the urgency on his face and in his voice was something that I will never forget. It broke my heart on the morning that he passed, he lay there on his bed not having the chance of experiencing in his lifetime something that he had so much hope for.

1. Was the hope of witnessing the second coming enough motivation to keep my grandfather on the straight and narrow path? Is this Christianitys way of keeping control of the saints?

Me personally, I have no problem with Prophets and scriptures calling us to repentance and usually somewhere in there is found the phrase "..to prepare us for the second coming of Jesus Christ", if critics refer to this as a manipulative reward system, an alternate phrase could be simply "to prepare to  meet Jesus Christ". Im not saying to change scripture but when we give talks on the podium maybe we can be more mindful of it.

Not sure if all this even makes sense, I dont mean to be confrontational but I have more courage to talk of these things now especially after the past few years where the changes in our church seem to be along the lines of damage control and problem solving. 

 

Edited by priesthoodpower
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11 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I see the Book of Mormon as both a history of the Nephite civilization as well as gospel teachings that are also an allegory for our time.  Just as the Nephites saw great wickedness before the visitation of the Lord in America which led to many centuries of peace and righteousness, I see it as a forewarning and blueprint of what our own civilization will be like right before the second coming.

Awesome catch, I never thought about it from this perspective.

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20 hours ago, person0 said:

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I've seen that argument against free will before. I've always thought it a senseless argument. Knowing what the outcome isn't what determines that outcome, your choices are. Knowledge of what an outcome will be and the causes of that outcome are or  at least can be different things.

As latter-day saints we have the unique perspective that we have always existed. We are co-eternal with God.

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1 hour ago, jerome1232 said:

I've seen that argument against free will before. I've always thought it a senseless argument. Knowing what the outcome isn't what determines that outcome, your choices are. Knowledge of what an outcome will be and the causes of that outcome are or  at least can be different things.

As latter-day saints we have the unique perspective that we have always existed. We are co-eternal with God.

For the record, I don't support that argument; I do believe in our individual agency.  I was just remembering how long that thread went on.

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2 hours ago, person0 said:

For the record, I don't support that argument; I do believe in our individual agency.  I was just remembering how long that thread went on.

I am of a slightly different mind.  Having lived a long full life, I have come to the conclusion that very little of my life choices have made that much of a difference.  I am not opposed at all to a possibility that our life journey and experience is "fixed" in advance by ordination and/or calling.  I have also noticed that most consequences, at least for me, have been hidden for me during the time I thought I was making choices and therefore mostly beyond my mortal control.  I have concluded that in order that agency be preserved  through a mortal experience that there must be a pre-existence and that we exercised our agency with full knowledge of consequences in our pre-existence planning and choices.  In essence the journey of this life was planned, known, chosen and ordained before we were born.  There may be some possible changes in this mortal life - but I am not convinced that such changes are as important as many think.  All things will not be completed until we come to a greater knowledge in the spirit world.  Some would argue that if all things are for the most part "fixed" in mortality - why try to succeed - just as well eat drink and be merry?  Just lay back and let what is going to happen - happen.  I take a very different view.  For me regardless of what happens or what trial I may face - there is no failure.  I can give it my all with no concern of falling short.  Like a very long bicycle race - except I do not have to worry about wasting myself on a particular climb (difficult trial) - I can sprint it out striving for a personal best and know that I have a divine support team that will keep me in the race for the best possible time and placement at the finish.  For now just keep with my training, pushing through to the end and I will win - guaranteed.  

 

The Traveler

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How soon is Jesus coming? Let me check my diary and see if I have any vacanies in my schedule. I might be able to squeeze in an appointment. 

(If you don't hear from me for a while, you know that my efforts to dodge the lightning bolts have been unsuccesful) 

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On 10/10/2018 at 11:24 AM, JohnsonJones said:

Based on that, it could get very dire and grim for the Saints right before the second coming if we see the Book of Mormon as also being an foreshadowing of what the world will be like in our days before the second coming of the Lord.

This is why I believe we are told it will be a great and terrible day(s), and why the scriptures inform the safety of Zion (as people will be running to Zion or they will have to draw sword to fight).

These will be interesting times, and President Nelson's quote in April conference all the more important, "In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost."

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