Resurrection of the body

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, zil said:

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"Time" is not the same as existence, nor is it required for existence.  Time is an artificial construct use to measure sequence.  In scripture, I think it refers more to mortality than the clock on the wall.  Mortality will end and we will continue to exist in eternity.  I doubt we'll have clocks in eternity, but we and matter will continue to exist.  And I personally believe there will be sequence (as in, one event can occur before another, just not at 1:30pm).  But I could be wrong about things happening in sequence given that nothing particular has been revealed except the vague statement that there will be time no longer.

Who said time is the same as existence?  Existence exists within space and time.  Time is not an artificial construct unless you consider the time as a function of light and Planck length or the number of Cs 133 transitions.  No, i mean a progression.

 

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When this world ends, and all are finally resurrected and assigned to a kingdom of glory (or perdition), we, like God, will not need time.

What do you mean this world will end.  Matter is eternal and continues its existence within Mormonism.

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FWIW, in my experience, the vast majority of members don't think, study, or talk about our faith from a philosophical / academic / apologetic perspective, but from the perspective of someone trying to figure out how to be a true disciple of Christ, and share their joy in that with others.  And this might explain different reactions in different forums - there are forums where philosophical / academic / apologetic types tend to congregate in mass, but this isn't one of them - though we have some who I'm sure qualify.  We're more the "how to be a true disciple of Christ" type.

So, truth is subjective and not objectively knowable?

 

[Vort]

Your responses are exceptionally difficult to follow. Nevertheless, being the sporting guy that I am, I will try.

22 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So, if someone questions someone regading eternal progression and already has provided a link to a source document which defines the term Eternal Progression that means the ter person a firm and wrong preconception regading the Doctrine of Eternal Progression?

"...that means the ter person a firm and wrong preconception..."

What?

If you are asking whether a person's providing a source for an idea means that that person is wrong, then no, it does not. Providing a source does not make you wrong. Being wrong makes you wrong.

But I confess that I'm not at all sure that's what you were asking above.

22 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

And prior to your comment I had already provided a link to the definition I was using which was EOM published by BYU

Well...you linked to a BYU source. I could not tell that you were actually using that source as a foundation to your understanding of eternal progression.

22 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

:Indeed there is. There are many such sources, actually. You ought to read them.
So how many different definitions are there.  Is the term so ambiguous that it does not have a veritable meaning?

I did not say there were different definitions; I said there were many different sources. Surely as a philosopher, you understand the critical importance of reading what people write, rather than what you want to think they wrote.

The term "eternal progression" is not at all ambiguous; as my old grad school professor would have said, it's well known to all who know it well. But it is not easily and neatly defined in the "philosophical" terms of academics. That you don't understand it doesn't mean it is not understandable, or that it is variously defined for convenience of whatever argument one is trying to prove.

22 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

As you seemed to indicate earlier the term Eternal progression is ambiguous.

This is simply false. I never suggested any such thing. Please do not blame your misunderstandings on me.

22 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

An ambiguity which is from different sources.  You cannot blame someone for misunderstanding a concept that you yourself admit that there are many different sources for a definition.

Of course I can. For example, there are many different verses -- sources -- in the Bible that teach the concept of redemption. Those many different sources point to a single idea (or, in your terms, definition). That it takes many sources to provide that definition doesn't mean the definition is ambiguous, except to the ignorant and those who do not wish to understand.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Vort

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I do not question your motives, just your preparation for this discussion. For example, the authors of the Bible and Book of Mormon, having a Hebrew (or at least oriental) orientation, construe time as circular or cyclical, not a linear progression. Time is where things happen, not when; as much a place as an event. If you don't understand the background and paradigm, you don't understand much else to be able to ask informed questions.

I am very familiar with Judaism.  My father is a Jew.  So I am very well prepared for this discussion.  In Judaism there is indeed a "seasonal" understanding of time which is connected with liturgical season.  But this is not what is being discussed here is it?  We also have an understand of the progression of time.  So let us not confuse the two shall we?  Try to sticking to the topic rather than introducing confusion.  

[zil]

I defer to @CV75 on the issue of "time" as it relates to the folks who wrote the Bible and Book of Mormon (I didn't know what he posted in this thread and was very intrigued to learn it).

And when I say "time" - I mean the clock sort of time that normal humans think of, not whatever physicists think.  But, as I said, I think in scripture it refers to mortality, not sequence or duration.

2 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

What do you mean this world will end.

The JST version of Matt. 13:49 (JST bit is in italics):

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49 So shall it be at the end of the world. And the world is the children of the wicked. The angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

The end of the world is the end of the wicked.  ("The world" is synonymous with Babylon in scripture, which is symbolic of the wicked.)

9 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So, truth is subjective and not objectively knowable?

[bytebear]

It's interesting to discuss time in eternal measures and then Biblical measures.  For example "In the beginning..." is not the beginning of God or His creations, but only in the context of the Earth's journey beginning. It doesn't even mean the beginning of the spirit children of God, who rejoiced at the creation of the Earth. 

[zil]

1 minute ago, bytebear said:

It's interesting to discuss time in eternal measures and then Biblical measures.  For example "In the beginning..." is not the beginning of God or His creations, but only in the context of the Earth's journey beginning. It doesn't even mean the beginning of the spirit children of God, who rejoiced at the creation of the Earth. 

I kind of like @Traveler's interpretation of it being the beginning of a covenant.

[Guest]

I want to get back to the topic, there is just one person @Just_A_Guy who has provided something useful to go on.  So I rather carry on this discussion with someone who can provide some decent response similar to what @Just_A_Guy has provided.  This discussion is degenerating, so to get back on track to the topic of the discussion.  

@Just_A_Guy

Man is continually growing in knowledge and potency and can progress eternally in the celestial kingdom and go on eventually to achieve godhood which is dependent on some unknown function of personal worthiness, experience and knowledge.  Exact details are unknown.

Can you clarify specifically as to what occurs at the second coming?  Does it deal with only persons here on earth?  Or does it deal with those in the celestial kingdom as well? 

 

 

 

 

[bytebear]

1 minute ago, zil said:

I kind of like @Traveler's interpretation of it being the beginning of a covenant.

I think of it as being the beginning of a life cycle.

• Created/organized as spirit
• Created physically
• Enter mortality
• Reborn spiritually (via baptism of water)
• Die
• Reborn physically (resurrected to glory)

We and the Earth have the same life cycle (more or less). 

But neither our existence began where the Bible begins, nor does it end where the Bible ends.

[bytebear]

3 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

I want to get back to the topic, there is just one person @Just_A_Guy who has provided something useful to go on.  So I rather carry on this discussion with someone who can provide some decent response similar to what @Just_A_Guy has provided.  This discussion is degenerating, so to get back on track to the topic of the discussion.  

@Just_A_Guy

Man is continually growing in knowledge and potency and can progress eternally in the celestial kingdom and go on eventually to achieve godhood which is dependent on some unknown function of personal worthiness, experience and knowledge.  Exact details are unknown.

Can you clarify specifically as to what occurs at the second coming?  Does it deal with only persons here on earth?  Or does it deal with those in the celestial kingdom as well?

Man continues to progress, but not in knowledge and potency.  Neither does God.  But God's creations grow and progress until they become like Him.  And therefore he progresses, as his creations progress.  When we become glorified, that adds to His Glory.  And so it is with our creations.  But it's not knowledge or power,  or worthiness or experience.  It's creation.

Progression is the opposite of damnation.  Damnation is the end of creation.  If we do not achieve celestial glory, we are no longer worthy of creation.  So, the Devil and his followers were damned by rejecting Earth from the beginning.

Edited August 30, 2018 by bytebear

[Guest]

Just now, bytebear said:

Man continues to progress, but not in knowledge and potency.  Neither does God.  But God's creations grow and progress until they become like Him.  And therefore he progresses, as his creations progress.  When we become glorified, that adds to His Glory.  And so it is with our creations.  But it's not knowledge or power,  or worthiness or experience.  It's creation. 

???  Gobbledygook  ???  

[bytebear]

Just now, Ian Hall said:

???  Gobbledygook  ???  

Perfectly logical to me.  God creates man.  Man progresses.  As such, God progresses via his creations. But he doesn't gain knowledge, or power.  Just more creations.

[bytebear]

"For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. "  Moses 1:39

God has but one purpose, and this is it.

[Guest]

@bytebear  Please let more knowledgeable people comment please.

[bytebear]

And the verse before is pretty important too.

"And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. "

[Guest]

@bytebear

 advancing as our Father in heaven advances, for there is progress for our father and for our Lord Jesus. There is no such thing as standing still in the eternal work of our God. It is endless progress, progressing from one degree of knowledge to another degree.  - George Canon

[bytebear]

That's what I said.   But I guess I am too ignorant to comment.    I'm out of here.  So rude.

[pam]

2 hours ago, zil said:

Is that what they're saying these days?  Sheesh, one silly incident involving a skunk on Halloween and suddenly the guests can't distinguish costumes and tomato juice from horns and blood.  ::SMH::

 

 

Blame that on @mirkwood

[zil]

1 minute ago, pam said:

Blame that on @mirkwood

Of course.  It was his skunk.

[Fether]

35 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

I want to get back to the topic, there is just one person @Just_A_Guy who has provided something useful to go on.  So I rather carry on this discussion with someone who can provide some decent response similar to what @Just_A_Guy has provided.  This discussion is degenerating, so to get back on track to the topic of the discussion.  

@Just_A_Guy

Man is continually growing in knowledge and potency and can progress eternally in the celestial kingdom and go on eventually to achieve godhood which is dependent on some unknown function of personal worthiness, experience and knowledge.  Exact details are unknown.

 Can you clarify specifically as to what occurs at the second coming?  Does it deal with only persons here on earth?  Or does it deal with those in the celestial kingdom as well? 

During the second coming, Christ will reign upon the earth, it will mark the beginning of the millennium. As far as what will occur during the millennium... probably frisbee golf, missionary work, taking family out for birthday dinner, lots of family history work so we can baptize those that never received the gospel. Men and women will be resurrected in order of righteousness.

It deals with those on earth. No one goes to the celestial kingdom until after final judgment (at the end of the millennium).

[Guest]

@Fether  Are you providing your own opinion?  Or the teaching of the Mormon Church?  So what are people who died doing between now and the second coming?

[bytebear]

They are in the Spirit World.  Either Paradise or Prison. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, bytebear said:

They are in the Spirit World.  Either Paradise or Prison. 

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng

So what did the first coming accomplish?  Nothing of substantial consequence?  What was happening to those who died before the first coming? 

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Ian Hall said:

I want to get back to the topic, there is just one person @Just_A_Guy who has provided something useful to go on.  So I rather carry on this discussion with someone who can provide some decent response similar to what @Just_A_Guy has provided.  This discussion is degenerating, so to get back on track to the topic of the discussion.  

@Just_A_Guy

Man is continually growing in knowledge and potency and can progress eternally in the celestial kingdom and go on eventually to achieve godhood which is dependent on some unknown function of personal worthiness, experience and knowledge.  Exact details are unknown.

Can you clarify specifically as to what occurs at the second coming?  Does it deal with only persons here on earth?  Or does it deal with those in the celestial kingdom as well? 

Thanks for the kind words, Ian; but FWIW I'd encourage you to keep dialoguing with the other posters here in spite of the shaky start the dialogue is off to.  There are plenty of folks here who are smarter, better-informed, and frankly better human beings than I am.

But as far as my own effort goes in addressing your question: On the first part, I think your summation of the LDS idea of eternal progress is on the right track--during our lifetimes, we are growing in knowledge and potency.  (I agree that @bytebear's qualifications apply after the final judgment--I think we continue to grow in "glory" and experience and works and associations and love, but not in knowledge or power.  For me, the rationale is primarily tautological--how can someone be omniscient and yet still learning?)  For those who fully reconcile themselves to God and Christ and make a sincere effort to live according to the will of God, they end up (after death, resurrection, and final judgment) in the "celestial kingdom" (aka "receiving 'exaltation'"), which apparently constitutes (in general  terms) of having developed many of the and qualities of God, and doing the sorts of things that He does.  The defining characteristic, per LDS scripture, is "eternal increase"; which is generally defined as the power to create life.  Mormonism sees human beings very literally as children who are (with Christ's help) ultimately capable of growing up to become like (but never equal to) their Father.

On the second part of your question:  it's hard for me to answer that well, without understanding a little more about where you're coming from and what aspects of Mormon--err, Latter-day Saint--teaching you're already familiar with.    Just on the off-chance you haven't seen it yet, I'll link to the Encyclopedia of Mormonism for background (the EoM, as has been suggested, isn't a binding arbiter of what is and isn't "official" LDS teaching; but it's usually reasonably solid).

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ#Jesus_Christ:_Second_Coming_of_Jesus_Christ

I'll also link to the Church's new-member Sunday School course manual's entry on the Second Coming:  

nhttps://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-44-e-second-coming-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

(And I should clarify here that when the manual refers to Christ judging people at His Second Coming, even though we often sloppily calls this a "final judgment", this is actually a sort of "intermediate judgment"--there's still a thousand-plus years before the "final judgment" is done, Satan is permanently bound, and *every* human being has been resurrected and consigned to their final state.)

I think, given the scope of available LDS teaching about the Second Coming, it would be easy to jump to the conclusion that the Second Coming affects primarily those who are alive on earth at the time of that particular event.  And once again you've shown your knack for asking questions in a way that I'd never really considered how to answer.  But again speaking off-the-cuff, I'd say there are at least two ways that the Second Coming also affects those who have already died. 

• First, it represents the so-called "Morning of the First Resurrection"--the moment when the righteous dead who have not yet been resurrected, will be resurrected. 
• Second--for background, remember that in LDS teaching the "spirit" or "soul" remains conscious and aware during the space between death and resurrection.  Even though it is far easier to reconcile ourselves to God while we are still alive, there is a possibility for (limited) progress during that interim period between death and resurrection (a period Mormons generically label the "spirit world", and which we sometimes subdivide into "paradise" for those who accepted Christ in life and "spirit prison" or "hell" for those who did not.)  Now, what follows is mostly extrapolation on my part; and may not represent orthodox LDS teaching.  But it seems likely to me that people in spirit world generally do retain some level of awareness of, and interest in, events that are continuing to unfold amongst the living.  The Second Coming and its appurtenant displays of Christ's power, love, mercy and compassion may be the event that finally brings some of those in "prison" to finally reconcile themselves to Christ and receive the fulness of blessings He has in store for them.

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So what did the first coming accomplish?  Nothing of substantial consequence?  What was happening to those who died before the first coming? 

Great question!!

So a few very important reasons

- Obviously the Atonement, where Christ suffered and died for all of our sins as well as his personal resurrection.

 

- Introduction of the higher law and fulfillment of the law of loses (Matthew 5:17 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/5?lang=eng) note: we use the King James Version in its purity

- The initiation of missionary work in the spirit world (which includes the differentiation of spirit prison and spirit paradise) (1 Peter 3: 18-20 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-pet/3.1-17?lang=eng#0)

- Establish his church as it had fallen into apastasy like some many times before (Matthew 16:18 https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/16?lang=eng)

Between Christ’s death and resurrection he was in the spirit world teaching to the dead. This is discussed in 1 Peter 3 as mentioned above and expounded upon in the abook of Mormon in Alma 40 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/40?lang=eng)

 

[Fether]

43 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Are you providing your own opinion?

Doctrine and opinion. The missionary work and family history work for the dead WILL happen.

The frisbee golf and birthday bit is just me acting under the assumption life will continue on predominately as normal but just with the removal of sin

Edited August 31, 2018 by Fether