Resurrection of the body

[Jane_Doe]

10 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Right.  There is a gaining of knowledge continually for both men and for gods.  It is same to say that this applies to those in the celestial kingdom only? 

Exhalation is a highest teir Celestial Kingdom thing only.  How/what/if another person learns during that time is something we don't know right now.  Truthfully we don't know much about a Celestial person's learning either.

10 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Now, those in the spirit prison will be there for 1,000 years before they go to their judgement correct?

Series of events:

Person lives mortal life and dies.

First judgement, which is a temporary one to decide if that person goes to Spirit Prison or Spirit Paradise.  Having no accepted Christ, this person goes to Spirit Prison.

Person hangs out in Spirit Prison until the second coming.  (Possible event-- while time passes, the person accepts Christ and goes to Spirit Paradise.  Still hang out until the Second Coming).

Christ's second coming

Person is resurrected.

1000 years of millennium. 

Final judgement for this person (and everyone else).

Person goes to appropriate kingdom.   

 

10 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Also what does the atonement death and resurrection actually accomplish?

Resurrection: Christ over came physical death, and His body and spirit were re-united.  

Atonement: Christ over came spiritual death, which is a person being separated from the Father through sin.  Obviously Christ Himself had not sinned at all, but this is Him paying the price for our sins so that we may be re-united with the Father.  

Longer answer available upon request.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Yes, @Just_A_Guy is provides a good explanation and I am able to figure out.  But many others here provide their opinion as being somehow doctine and as an outsider one cannot know what is authoritative and what is opinion.  This is the same is true for those who read the Qur'an.  One has to deal with opinion of every Muslim but at least I can go the the tafsir and read the commentaries and there is the ahadith which provides the core customs and beliefs to be followed.  But with Mormonism, it is opinion first and foremost. 

What I am faced with is beliefs which can be synthesized at the micro scale but are appear not to make sense on the macro scale.  I am attempting to see how this all can be fitted together into a coherent who.  There are a bunch of holes and it appears that opinions are used to plug these holes and the opinions when plugged in one area open a hole in another area.  I want to see is how the system works with as little opinion as possible - I do not consider deductive reasoning as opinion because if it give coherence to the whole then so much the better.

Some useful pointers when approaching LDS beliefs / epistemology --

-- In regards to your question about weighing various sources: https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

--- Having a big-picture understanding of things before going into particulars is extremely useful.  I've seen several of your questions get tripped up because of this (I mean no offense by this observation and hope none is taken -- we're here to help sort things out).  The Gospel Principles manual is extremely useful for getting the big picture with lots of links for further reading https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng 

-- We're a faith that at it's core acknowledges that we don't know everything yet and many great things have yet to be revealed.  So some answers aren't just known yet-- which is something that has driven some non-LDS bonkers--- because they don't like "we don't know answers" and try to pin those things that aren't known down.  

-- Some topics are just more important that others.  Some topics simply don't receive a lot of study time-- either because they're not a focus right now, or just not much is known.  For example, eschatological events is simply not a focus for LDS.  I realize that the list of topics LDS consider most important don't always line up with non-LDS folks.

-- LDS as a culture / faith / people are very focused on actively becoming better disciples of Christ.  Not so much on details of agreeing on every theological detail.  

-- Especially when an answer isn't officially revealed (such as in scripture or an official proclamation), LDS individuals are indeed allowed to pray for individual answers to questions.  These answers are of course individualized and will vary.  Where I've seen non-LDS folks not know how to deal with non-cookie-cutter-ness.

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

What do you mean my post-epistemological event?  What does that mean?

Dang it, I copy/pasted the wrong word (I admit these words test my spelling limits so I'll copy paste to avoid that headache).  I meant to say "post-eschatological", try to convey that things work like this:

One chapter in life: the second coming, resurrection, judgement, etc.

The NEXT chapter: activities in the Celestial Kingdom.  

I apologize for my mess up / laziness before.  

Edited August 31, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[wenglund]

33 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Also what does the atonement death and resurrection actually accomplish?

To adequately understand these two precepts requires first understanding the fall What is your understanding of the fall, or rather, what do you know of what we believe about the fall?

Also, without intending to confuse matters further, the term "eternal" may be viewed as moniker for God (and this because he is endless--see D&C 19:7-12),  As such, its use in relation to progression may refer to the source of the progression rather than duration. In other words, "eternal progression" may rightly be viewed as progression established by God, or in other words, progression unto becoming even as God is. and need not suggest progressing eternally, though that may also be a distinct possibility.

Thanks, -Wade Englund

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Yes and no. The Celestial kingdom is synonymous with the Kingdom of God, or in other words, the dwelling place of God., both body and spirit The kingdom of God existed prior to mortality--i.e. was and is the domain of the Father's pre-mortal spirit children, also called "heaven.". The kingdom of God  has and does now exist on earth in the form of HIs "church" and under the auspices of His duly called and ordained priesthood. He dwells on earth by way of His spirit and priesthood authority, as most clearly manifest by the presence of His temples (I trust you understand this as a Jew), though he dwells bodily in heaven.  When Christ inaugurated the first resurrection (3 days after his dieath, those thus resurrected have dwelt in the celestial kingdom with their Father in heaven  In conjunction with the second coming, God will come to dwell on the earth by way of HIs Son, thus establishing a celestial kingdom that has yet to come. And, finally, at the close of the millennium,  The earth will be celestialized and become the dwelling place of the Father and His celestial resurrected children children.

Each of these stages of progression may rightly be considered the celestial kingdom, but not ultimately the Celestial Kingdom, not unlike unborn babies, new born, toddlers, children, and teens may rightly be considered as "man," though not ultimately "Man" until they reach adulthood.  The celestial Kingdom has existed in the past and currently exists in the presence, though ultimately the Celestial Kingdom won't exist until after the millennium. 

I can provide ample authoritative documentation (for example, see HERE), but I wanted to spell things out simply to begin with so to better assure productive conversation. Most of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (with the possible exveption of Rpb Osborn), wioll like be in unanomous agreement, which should carry some authority of its own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Longer answer please.  Because the atonement nor the resurrection makes sense yet in the context.  The way I see it it has accomplished nothing of substance in the immediate situation.  Let me explain.

So there is a per-mortal existence in which there are spirit children who have to pass through the second estate where they are born in accordance to their merit in their pre-mortal state.  You indicated that those before were subject to spiritual death, but now you create a problem for those who pre-existed the coming of the Messiach.  So not only does one's body die, their spirit also dies.  Where were these persons?  What is actually accomplished? 

If the spirit child must gain experience and knowledge by passing through the first estate, why should there be sin or the fall.  Once the fall occurred the nature of man now takes on the yetzer ra (you call this human concupiscence) and the gates of heaven are closed to man and man is driven out of the Garden.

What I am trying to figure out is the follow..

Pre-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank)  also let us assume person A is born here

Post-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank) also let us assume person B is born here

What is the substantive difference as the atonement affect person A and person B

[wenglund]

7 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Some useful pointers when approaching LDS beliefs / epistemology --

- We're a faith that at it's core acknowledges that we don't know everything yet and many great things have yet to be revealed.  So some answers aren't just known yet-- which is something that has driven some non-LDS bonkers--- because they don't like "we don't know answers" and try to pin those things that aren't known down.  

Even more frustrating to the epistemological types when engaging precepts of the restored gospel of Christ,  is not only the high degree of symbolism found within our faith,  which lends itself more to an artistic approach than science, but also for us it is less about knowledge than it is about becoming (Dallin Oaks: The Godhead and the Plan of Salvation) . Knowledge isn't the end in itself, but a means to the end in Christ, if not more so a byproduct of progressing unto Christ.  We come to know God by becoming godly.

Also, we reject creedalism (JSH 1:19) since it tends to artificially impose a finite conceptual box around the infinite and eternal, and may be an impediment to continued learning.

As such, our beliefs aren't all that systematic or epistemological,  but tend to take the form of stories, which entail a subjective and objective mix that many Western and heavily left-brained thinkers find challenging.

Such is the beauty of the gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

--- Having a big-picture understanding of things before going into particulars is extremely useful.  I've seen several of your questions get tripped up because of this (I mean no offense by this observation and hope none is taken -- we're here to help sort things out).  The Gospel Principles manual is extremely useful for getting the big picture with lots of links for further reading https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng 

-- We're a faith that at it's core acknowledges that we don't know everything yet and many great things have yet to be revealed.  So some answers aren't just known yet-- which is something that has driven some non-LDS bonkers--- because they don't like "we don't know answers" and try to pin those things that aren't known down. 

I took no offense as I do not see anything which can be construed as offensive in that or an earlier post by you.  However, I could have missed something.

The problem navigating through what is believe in Mormonism is that there are discrete sets and many Mormon apologists offer opinions to attempt to unify these discrete sets of doctrines.  I am looking for the "here is how it works" answer.  Sure there might be not understand some minutia but that can be set as a mystery.  Mystery is not something illogical but something like a black box.  I am OK with a "we do not know", I doubt you went to heaven and took a look around and came back to satisfy some inquisitive OP post on Mormon hub.  But it has to make sense. 

[wenglund]

37 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Longer answer please.  Because the atonement nor the resurrection makes sense yet in the context.  The way I see it it has accomplished nothing of substance in the immediate situation.  Let me explain.

So there is a per-mortal existence in which there are spirit children who have to pass through the second estate where they are born in accordance to their merit in their pre-mortal state.  You indicated that those before were subject to spiritual death, but now you create a problem for those who pre-existed the coming of the Messiach.  So not only does one's body die, their spirit also dies.  Where were these persons?  What is actually accomplished? 

If the spirit child must gain experience and knowledge by passing through the first estate, why should there be sin or the fall.  Once the fall occurred the nature of man now takes on the yetzer ra (you call this human concupiscence) and the gates of heaven are closed to man and man is driven out of the Garden.

What I am trying to figure out is the follow..

Pre-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank)  also let us assume person A is born here

Post-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank) also let us assume person B is born here

What is the substantive difference as the atonement affect person A and person B

Great questions. However again, to adequately understand these precepts requires first understanding the fall What is your understanding of the fall, or rather, what do you know of what we believe about the fall? What did it entail--see HERE (answering this also requires an understanding of the creation--see HERE and HERE)? And, why were those things necessary--see HERE and HERE and HERE?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited August 31, 2018 by wenglund

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Great questions. However again, to adequately understand these precepts requires first understanding the fall What is your understanding of the fall, or rather, what do you know of what we believe about the fall? What did it entail? And, why were those things necessary?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

My concept of the fall is one of the proto-sin causing the human nature affected by the yetzer ra.  All person on this earth are affected by this.  Yet man can overcome the yetzer tov by prayer, mortification (denial of the yetzer ra) and joyful charity (feeding the yetzer tov) and in doing so come to perfection/holiness.  The consequence of that proto-sin is that the gates of heaven were closed which will be opened by the messiach,

I believe that the majority of Christians accept this view for the most part and would additionally say that the atonement of the Christ payed the penalty for sin and restoring the sanctifying grace required to entry into heaven which was lost at the fall due to sin. There are varying views on the subject.

You can provide a clearer definition on the Mormon understanding of the fall.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Great questions. However again, to adequately understand these precepts requires first understanding the fall What is your understanding of the fall, or rather, what do you know of what we believe about the fall? What did it entail--see HERE (answering this also requires an understanding of the creation--see HERE and HERE)? And, why were those things necessary--see HERE and HERE and HERE?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I read those.  I understand the fall as understood by the Mormon Church. But my question remain regading what are the consequences within that context of the Fall as you provided and the atonement and resurrection

Pre-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank)  also let us assume person A is born here

Post-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank) also let us assume person B is born here

What is the substantive difference as the atonement affect person A and person B 

[Midwest LDS]

9 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

I read those.  I understand the fall as understood by the Mormon Church. But my question remain regading what are the consequences within that context of the Fall as you provided and the atonement and resurrection

Pre-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank)  also let us assume person A is born here

Post-messiach situation of man (fill in the blank) also let us assume person B is born here

What is the substantive difference as the atonement affect person A and person B 

The Atonement of Jesus Christ applies universally to all of mankind. This includes those born both before the time of Christ (Person A) and after the time of Christ (Person B). Its affect on both people is substantively the same. In the Book of Mormon it explains that the Atonement affects even those born before it occurred in Mosiah 3:13

"And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them."

Edited August 31, 2018 by Midwest LDS

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

I am very familiar with Judaism.  My father is a Jew.  So I am very well prepared for this discussion.  In Judaism there is indeed a "seasonal" understanding of time which is connected with liturgical season.  But this is not what is being discussed here is it?  We also have an understand of the progression of time.  So let us not confuse the two shall we?  Try to sticking to the topic rather than introducing confusion.  

Apparently you are not as familiar with the cosmic Hebrew time cycle as the topic requires... which is very spacetime friendly. I cannot not introduce confusion you already possess!

Case in point:

10 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

What I am faced with is beliefs which can be synthesized at the micro scale but are appear not to make sense on the macro scale.

This is no different than reconciling quantum and classical systems. Different conditions follow different laws.

Edited August 31, 2018 by CV75

[Rob Osborn]

7 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

Right.  There is a gaining of knowledge continually for both men and for gods.  It is same to say that this applies to those in the celestial kingdom only?  I know that some opinions state there is no migration from a lower kingdom to a higher kingdom. 

Now, those in the spirit prison will be there for 1,000 years before they go to their judgement correct?

Also what does the atonement death and resurrection actually accomplish?

In Judaism Paradise is sheol a compartment where the tzaddikim await the coming of the messiach, who will make himself known to them and will open the gates of heaven.  Sheol is a compartment in hell, but it is paradise,  This is the traditional Jewish understanding. 

 

All places are kingdoms

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. (D&C 88:37)

We obviously are in a lesser kingdom right now. According to our temple ceremony we are in the Telestial kingdom right now. Even when we progress into the Celestial kingdom there are yet higher kingdoms above it-

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known. (D&C 130:10)

We will obviously continue to progress to higher kingdoms post resurrection. 

Spirit prison is a temporary holding place for the departed from us who are wicked. Those who end up there can either be in there a short time or longer time depending their sins and penalties incurred coupled with their acceptance of the gospel.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
            59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138:58-59)

The atonement brings to pass the resurrection and the ability to repent and be forgiven of sin. Christ becomes our advocate with the Father. The Father cannot nor will not deny Christ's requests. This is where mercy comes into play. Without the atonement none of us could either be resurrected or gain the necessary mercy to be forgiven of past sins.

[Rob Osborn]

6 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

I took no offense as I do not see anything which can be construed as offensive in that or an earlier post by you.  However, I could have missed something.

The problem navigating through what is believe in Mormonism is that there are discrete sets and many Mormon apologists offer opinions to attempt to unify these discrete sets of doctrines.  I am looking for the "here is how it works" answer.  Sure there might be not understand some minutia but that can be set as a mystery.  Mystery is not something illogical but something like a black box.  I am OK with a "we do not know", I doubt you went to heaven and took a look around and came back to satisfy some inquisitive OP post on Mormon hub.  But it has to make sense. 

Ian, it's absolutely true that we do not have, in our doctrine, a completely worked out model of the hereafter with all of the little details worked out. That's why opinions abound. 

[Traveler]

14 hours ago, zil said:

I kind of like @Traveler's interpretation of it being the beginning of a covenant.

 

It is not really mine - I stole it from a Rabbi that claims it is a rather common interpretation (translation) among the Jews.  He claimed that the proper translation from the ancient Hebrew is "In the beginning when G-d made his first covenant with man".

As a side note - of all those of a religious nature - it seems that other than the Latter-day Saints (at least some LDS), the Jews alone seem to have the best understanding of what it means (as well as what and how) to make a covenant with G-d

 

The Traveler

[Guest MormonGator]

10 hours ago, mirkwood said:

@MormonGator is pretty good too.  He likes to post crappy music videos.

Lol. Guilty as charged officer. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Apparently you are not as familiar with the cosmic Hebrew time cycle as the topic requires... which is very spacetime friendly. I cannot not introduce confusion you already possess!

Case in point:

Quote

What I am faced with is beliefs which can be synthesized at the micro scale but are appear not to make sense on the macro scale.

This is no different than reconciling quantum and classical systems. Different conditions follow different laws. 

Pray educate us mere mortals unfamiliar with "cosmic Hebrew time cycle" is and how it is very space-time friendly?  After all you would want to clear up the confusion I already possess.  Also, explain to us what a quantum and classical systems are.  Also, would you like to explain how CM and RM follow different laws as provided by the different conditions.  Please explain these to us?

[CV75]

40 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Pray educate us mere mortals unfamiliar with "cosmic Hebrew time cycle" is and how it is very space-time friendly?  After all you would want to clear up the confusion I already possess.  Also, explain to us what a quantum and classical systems are.  Also, would you like to explain how CM and RM follow different laws as provided by the different conditions.  Please explain these to us?

Here is an adequate introduction for you: http://www.ldolphin.org/jtime.html

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

All places are kingdoms

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. (D&C 88:37)

We obviously are in a lesser kingdom right now. According to our temple ceremony we are in the Telestial kingdom right now. Even when we progress into the Celestial kingdom there are yet higher kingdoms above it-

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known. (D&C 130:10)

We will obviously continue to progress to higher kingdoms post resurrection. 

Spirit prison is a temporary holding place for the departed from us who are wicked. Those who end up there can either be in there a short time or longer time depending their sins and penalties incurred coupled with their acceptance of the gospel.

58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,
            59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. (D&C 138:58-59)

The atonement brings to pass the resurrection and the ability to repent and be forgiven of sin. Christ becomes our advocate with the Father. The Father cannot nor will not deny Christ's requests. This is where mercy comes into play. Without the atonement none of us could either be resurrected or gain the necessary mercy to be forgiven of past sins.

I understand that there are many kingdoms As for the ability to be repent and be forgiven for in already existed in Judaism.  People were being forgiven for their sins even in the Tanakh.  We also have Yom Kippur.  So this is all happening already.

So, what I am attempting to figure out is what is the condition of a person (A) born prior to the atonement and what is the condition of person (B) born after the atonement, and how does the atonement mitigate that conditional difference

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Here is an adequate introduction for you: http://www.ldolphin.org/jtime.html 

Please explain it in your own words.... not someone elses.  Demonstrate how it is space-time friendly.  Also, explain to us what a quantum and classical systems are.  Also, would you like to explain how CM and RM follow different laws as provided by the different conditions.  Please explain these to us?

 

[Jane_Doe]

8 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

I took no offense as I do not see anything which can be construed as offensive in that or an earlier post by you.  However, I could have missed something.

The problem navigating through what is believe in Mormonism is that there are discrete sets and many Mormon apologists offer opinions to attempt to unify these discrete sets of doctrines.  I am looking for the "here is how it works" answer.  Sure there might be not understand some minutia but that can be set as a mystery.  Mystery is not something illogical but something like a black box.  I am OK with a "we do not know", I doubt you went to heaven and took a look around and came back to satisfy some inquisitive OP post on Mormon hub.  But it has to make sense. 

Have you read the Gospel Principles manual?

[Anddenex]

2 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So, what I am attempting to figure out is what is the condition of a person (A) born prior to the atonement and what is the condition of person (B) born after the atonement, and how does the atonement mitigate that conditional difference

You will need to clarify your point a little further pertaining to "conditions," and why you think person (A) conditions would be any different than person (B) condition that would need to be mitigated.

The easy answer, there isn't anything that needs to be mitigated as the conditions remain the same for person (A) and person (B). 

Person (A) looked forward to the atonement and thus redemption. Person (B) looks back (the atonement) while looking forward to standing before their Father in heaven. The conditions for being redeemed stay constant. So, what are you trying to discover?

[Guest]

Just now, Jane_Doe said:

Have you read the Gospel Principles manual?

I have read parts of it as I am trying to put the pieces together.  But no, I have not read it as a while. 

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So, what I am attempting to figure out is what is the condition of a person (A) born prior to the atonement and what is the condition of person (B) born after the atonement, and how does the atonement mitigate that conditional difference

There is no difference whatsoever in our faith, as Midwest LDS described:

3 hours ago, Midwest LDS said:

The Atonement of Jesus Christ applies universally to all of mankind. This includes those born both before the time of Christ (Person A) and after the time of Christ (Person B). Its affect on both people is substantively the same. In the Book of Mormon it explains that the Atonement affects even thise born before it occurred in Mosiah 3:13

"And the Lord God hath sent his holy prophets among all the children of men, to declare these things to every kindred, nation, and tongue, that thereby whosoever should believe that Christ should come, the same might receive remission of their sins, and rejoice with exceedingly great joy, even as though he had already come among them."

...and as @Anddenex just posted.

[Guest]

Just now, Anddenex said:

You will need to clarify your point a little further pertaining to "conditions," and why you think person (A) conditions would be any different than person (B) condition that would need to be mitigated.

The easy answer, there isn't anything that needs to be mitigated as the conditions remain the same for person (A) and person (B). 

Person (A) looked forward to the atonement and thus redemption. Person (B) looks back (the atonement) while looking forward to standing before their Father in heaven. The conditions for being redeemed stay constant. So, what are you trying to discover?

???  Very confused here  ???

The whole reason for the atonement is the state of the post fall man and the alleviation or mitigation of the condition as a whole or in part.   If this is not the case, the atonement is not necessary.  I do not see the need for an atonement in the very least substantially and no one here is able to point to any substantial difference.  So the atonement appears to be an ad hoc addition which in substance accomplishes nothing.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, zil said:

Quote

So, what I am attempting to figure out is what is the condition of a person (A) born prior to the atonement and what is the condition of person (B) born after the atonement, and how does the atonement mitigate that conditional difference

There is no difference whatsoever in our faith, as Midwest LDS described:

Quote

The Atonement of Jesus Christ applies universally to all of mankind. This includes those born both before the time of Christ (Person A) and after the time of Christ (Person B). Its affect on both people is substantively the same. In the Book of Mormon it explains that the Atonement affects even thise born before it occurred in Mosiah 3:13

...and as @Anddenex just posted.

At which point of time is the atonement applied universally to all of mankind?