Resurrection of the body


Guest Ian Hall
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1 hour ago, Ian Hall said:

We have moved beyond that point.  Please follow the conversion.  You did not provide an exposition as you claim to have provided.  I thought it would be in bad taste to call you make you look a fool in front of your peers, which I can very easily do.  So knock it off and stick to what you know.

LOL... Yes, I said we moved beyond that point awhile ago. I did not claim to have provided a more extensive exposition, just the link, and explained why I wouldn't provide that -- namely because it became clear that we moved past it... LOL

I don't worry about bad taste or being made a fool of, or being told to knock it off for that matter... :)

Would you provide some sample links to the Wikipedia articles you contributed to, better, some samples of your contributions? My first CFR to you went unanswered, hopefully this one will be answered.

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1 hour ago, Ian Hall said:

So I take it that the fall was a requirement, which means that a state of sin is a requirement or else the spirit children would not experience mortality?

The agency to sin was required. To us, absent the capacity to sin, one could not know righteousness. We could not know good except there be evil. Opposition is necessary in all things. (2 Ne 2)

However, while the agency to sin was required, then were justice immediately enforced, our agency to sin, and our inevitability to sin, would immediately destroy us eternally. So, to make the former possible without the latter immediately occurring, grace and mercy were needed, which was made possible through Christ's atoning sacrifice--and which was enforce since the fall even though the atoning event took place a long time thereafter.

Thus was created a probationary state in which God's children could be subject to sin, while also enabling us to overcome sin rather than necessarily die spiritually and physically and eternally at the point of infraction.  This notion is somewhat reflected in various aspects of human life, not the least of which is through childhood play and games as well as adult dreaming, philosophizing, and hypothesizing.. In each case, the agent is able to act out, mentally or pretend, and test and learn without the threat of immediate annihilation.  

I should also mention that, in addition to applying to the past and present and future,  the atonement is, at once, both an event and a process, affected not just by Christ, but also, to varying degrees and ways, through our participation.

Quote

Within that context, then yes (if it is dependent on that context then yes.

Within that context and what later clarifying of the atonement as a retroactive active application before it actually occurred as explained by  @zil then yes. I realize that this is not classical Christian nor Jewish soteriology once @zil provided an explanation which at first is what I presumed it was.

I am pleased for the clarity and understanding, even though we may disagree. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited by wenglund
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2 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I am pleased for the clarity and understanding, even though we may disagree. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

In which aspect to you agree or disagree with @zil ?  I am writing a quick summary so I can tweak it or rework it.  Try and be specific.

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3 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

How is that a different question????????????????????????????????????????????? 

One question mark is sufficient, unless of course you want to place yourself in the same realm of maturity as you placed our missionaries?

Your initial question requested a condition between those before Christ's atonement, and those after Christ's atonement, which has been answered by multiple people explaining there is no difference, by which you kept saying there is. I asked for further clarification, and this provided further clarification regarding a condition simply after the fall.

This should be pretty clear to see the difference between the two questions. Before the "Fall" Adam and Eve were in an immortal state where they could not die. Thus you already have one condition that is different since the fall -- death. Adam and Eve were innocent and without "sin." This is another condition that was placed upon us since the fall, that because of Adam and Eve we can now sin. Death and sin are the two main conditions upon us, thus the need for the atonement to bring us back into the presence of God.  One other condition is the concept of our "eyes being opened" knowing good from evil, thus we can grow in knowledge (as to the difference between what Adam and Eve could have obtained -- this is an unknown).

Concepts of pre-mortality have been explained here; however, what do you know regarding our pre-mortal life? Without a proper understanding of the three pillars (Creation, Fall, Eternal life) the atonement becomes once again the human supposition of having no meaning, or as you have said, "accomplishes nothing what so ever."

Edited by Anddenex
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6 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

In which aspect to you agree or disagree with @zil ?  I am writing a quick summary so I can tweak it or rework it.  Try and be specific.

I can't think of anything in which I disagree with @zil. My comment about "we may disagree" was in reference to you and I (and by extension, you and the other participants on this thread).

I will be interested to read your summary, and have enjoyed and learned from the exchange, and I hope the same for you.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

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So is a draft summary

The fall was a requirement soteriological requirement within Mormonism.  The consequence of the fall is mortality and sin.  Without the fall the spirit children of Ahman could not gain the knowledge and experience by their exercise of their free agency/free will necessary for their progression. 

Since the effects of the fall were mortality and sin, these effects required mitigation or alleviation.  The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven. 

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

Do we have general agreement or do we need to tweak this?

Edited by Ian Hall
number agreement
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4 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

I understand that there are many kingdoms As for the ability to be repent and be forgiven for in already existed in Judaism.  People were being forgiven for their sins even in the Tanakh.  We also have Yom Kippur.  So this is all happening already.

So, what I am attempting to figure out is what is the condition of a person (A) born prior to the atonement and what is the condition of person (B) born after the atonement, and how does the atonement mitigate that conditional difference

No difference, all will be forgiven according to obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Kingdom

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20 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So is a draft summary

The fall was a requirement soteriological requirement within Mormonism.  The consequence of the fall is mortality and sin.  Without the fall the spirit children of Ahman could not gain the knowledge and experience by their exercise of their free agency/free will necessary for their progression. 

Since the effects of the fall were mortality and sin, these effects required mitigation or alleviation.  The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven. 

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

Do we have general agreement or do we need to tweak this?

You're getting closer, let me start to comment on how we can start to improve this--

[Missing big picture things: the motivation for creation of the Earth, the Garden, and setting up for the Fall]

20 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

The fall was a requirement soteriological requirement within Mormonism. 

"soteriological" isn't the best fitting word here, as the larger Plan of Happiness that's being discussed here deals with much more big-picture things than just traditional Christian "Am I saved" philosophy.

20 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Since the effects of the fall were mortality and sin, these effects required mitigation or alleviation.  

The way this is phrased... it sounds like you're describing an "undo" button.  The big picture here is more than that.

20 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven. 

For a point of clarification: the entire Plan was laid out before the Earth was made.  There wasn't any "oops, we need a volunteer" going on.

20 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

This is ... very awkward way of saying things.  The Atonement applies to all, regardless of when you lived.  It's that simple.

 

 

Good reference for you:https://www.lds.org/manual/true-to-the-faith/plan-of-salvation?lang=eng

A longer more in-depth one: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2017/04/the-godhead-and-the-plan-of-salvation?lang=eng 

Edited by Jane_Doe
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@Jane_Doe

Rewrite it as you see fit to provide an accurate representation as possible.

23 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

Quote

 

This is ... very awkward way of saying things.  The Atonement applies to all, regardless of when you lived.  It's that simple.

 

That is ambiguous.  We spent something close to 60 comments to how the atonement because of statements such as "The Atonement applies to all, regardless of when you lived." are too vague and confusing.  Anyone reading such a statement would be trying to still figure out the difference between a person who lived prior to the atonement and a person who lived post atonement. 

Jews for example believe that the messiach will come and open the doors of heaven and the souls of those who passed from this life are in paradise/sheol awaiting the messiach being made known to them.

Christians would add that the messiach has already come and that the gates of heaven have been opened and the tzaddikim who resided in sheol/paradise entered into heaven.

So, each in this case would presume a condition/state exists which requires a messiach to remove.  No one could come to the understanding that this was a retroactive application of the atonement.

Soteriology deals with the theology regarding plan of salvation.  The "are you saved" mentality is not a traditional theology but a reaction born of the Second Great Awakening due to persons such as Jonathan Edwards and others who were influenced by a strain of Puritanism and Calvinist theology found in per-Independence America.  This might be considered "traditional" in the United States but no where else in the world.  It is an American phenomena found no where else.

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37 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So is a draft summary

The fall was a requirement soteriological requirement within Mormonism.  The consequence of the fall is mortality and sin.  Without the fall the spirit children of Ahman could not gain the knowledge and experience by their exercise of their free agency/free will necessary for their progression. 

Since the effects of the fall were mortality and sin, these effects required mitigation or alleviation.  The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven. 

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

Do we have general agreement or do we need to tweak this?

How is this as an alternative?:

  • Father in Heaven desired that his spirit children become even as he is.
  • To become like the Father, the children needed to fall from His presence and ascend back to HIs presence
  • The fall was made possible by Adam, and the ascension was made possible by Christ.
  • The fall brought about mortality and sin, whereas the ascension brought about immortality and to varying degrees righteousness.
  • And, just as the fall applies to all mankind throughout time, so also does the atonement, even though the events occurred thousands of years apart. Both are an ongoing process

Key elements of this simple syllogism are represented in various biblical stories, including: Adam and Eve being cast out of the Garden into the lone and dreary world,; Abraham being commanded to leave the house of his father and journey to strange lands;  Israel being taken captive by Egypt and later being led to the promised land by Moses; the scattering and gathering of Israel. etc.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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25 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

@Jane_Doe

Rewrite it as you see fit to provide an accurate representation as possible.

@wenglund beat me to this.  

 

25 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

  We spent something close to 60 comments to how the atonement because of statements such as "The Atonement applies to all, regardless of when you lived." are too vague and confusing.  Anyone reading such a statement would be trying to still figure out the difference between a person who lived prior to the atonement and a person who lived post atonement. 

Jews for example believe that the messiach will come and open the doors of heaven and the souls of those who passed from this life are in paradise/sheol awaiting the messiach being made known to them.

Christians would add that the messiach has already come and that the gates of heaven have been opened and the tzaddikim who resided in sheol/paradise entered into heaven.

So, each in this case would presume a condition/state exists which requires a messiach to remove.  No one could come to the understanding that this was a retroactive application of the atonement.

Christians believe Christ and His atonement saved Abraham (pre-Christ), Peter (Christ contemporary) and individuals nowadays (post-Christ).  This is not a unique LDS thing.  

25 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

Soteriology deals with the theology regarding plan of salvation.  The "are you saved" mentality is not a traditional theology but a reaction born of the Second Great Awakening due to persons such as Jonathan Edwards and others who were influenced by a strain of Puritanism and Calvinist theology found in per-Independence America.  This might be considered "traditional" in the United States but no where else in the world.  It is an American phenomena found no where else.

Would you list the creation of the Earth as a soteriological event?

For LDS, Christ's sacrifice isn't an isolated event to come and clean up Adam's mess.  Rather, the entire Plan (creation, fall, atonement, resurrection) was planned out ahead of time, and exists together to bring men into a higher level of happiness/maturity/being than before.  

Edited by Jane_Doe
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59 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

So is a draft summary

The fall was a requirement soteriological requirement within Mormonism.  The consequence of the fall is mortality and sin.  Without the fall the spirit children of Ahman could not gain the knowledge and experience by their exercise of their free agency/free will necessary for their progression. 

Since the effects of the fall were mortality and sin, these effects required mitigation or alleviation.  The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven. 

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies the future atonement to Adam and Eve and all their future descendants retroactively instead of waiting for the actual atonement to occur.

Do we have general agreement or do we need to tweak this?

Personally, I thought this draft summary was a good place to start. I can see others have shared their thoughts and provided some alternate summaries and clarification. If I were to take your paragraphs and change them to mine own this is what I would say (as I am not the best person with word choice, some of my words chosen others on Mormonhub may have chosen a different word or two. I am choosing words that have clarified meaning for me.):

First paragraph: The gospel of Jesus Christ points to three pillars of Creation (Creation, Fall, Atonement). All three pillars are essential (requirements works also) within the gospel of Jesus Christ (as defined through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).  A consequence of the second pillar, the Fall, is mortality (physical death) and sin (spiritual death). The Fall is a necessary element in order for us to become like our Father in heaven. This is accomplished (as you specified) through knowledge and experience allowing us to progress.

* @wenglund - highlighted in his first two bullets important aspects relating to the fall.

Second Paragraph: As @Jane_Doe provided, our Father in heaven already knew and a Savior would be required in order to overcome the consequences of the Fall, mortality (physical death) and sin (spiritual death). In the beginning, before the first pillar (Creation) all the sons of God were gathered (I assume daughters also, but scriptures do not specify such) and our Father in heaven presented The Plan. Our Savior, Jesus Christ, was chosen and by which he accepted to become the Savior by which physical death (mortality) and spiritual death (sin) would be overcome.

Third Paragraph: The atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite and eternal. When Adam and Eve partook of the forbidden fruit, resulting in the Fall (mortality and sin), Adam and Even and all their children began to exercise faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ (as if it had already occurred). If the atonement was retroactive, then Adam, Even, and all their children would not have been able to access its redeeming and enabling power while they lived. The atonement wasn't retroactive, it is infinite and eternal. They were applying the atonement while they lived. Nothing needed to be retroactive.

All-in-all though, again, I thought your personal draft was a good summary according to what has been shared.

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Christians believe Christ and His atonement saved Abraham (pre-Christ), Peter (Christ contemporary) and individuals nowadays (post-Christ).  This is not a unique LDS thing.  

I do not think they were agree.  There would not agree with a retroactive application of the atonement beginning at the fall.  From a Jewish perspective, the tzaddikim, the rightous, are in paradise.  The Christians would say that those who were in paradise entered heaven only at the resurrection when the suffering and death of the Christ was applied to them.  It is unique to the LDS that the atonement was applied retroactively in anticipation of a future event occurring.  

Also, the per-mortal existence is unique to the Mormons.

Quote

Would you list the creation of the Earth as a soteriological event?

I think one of the issues is what is meant by "creation".  I think "creation" gives a completely different connotation to many.  Rather "reorganize or organize" would be much more clearer term which conveys Mormon understanding more precisely.  The universe (as opposed to world) which is created was a not a soteriology event because it did not require redemption at the time of creation but only after the fall.  However, this is not the case with Mormonism as the reorganization of matter into the world as we know it is a soteriological event as its making was undertaken with the positive anticipation of the fall occurring. 

Quote

For LDS, Christ's sacrifice isn't an isolated event to come and clean up Adam's "ooopps....", as it is in traditional Creedal soteriology.  Rather, the entire Plan (creation, fall, atonement, resurrection) was planned out ahead of time, and exists together to bring men into a higher level of happiness/maturity/being than before.

I do not think anyone claims that the fall was an oops and not anticipated.  Being outside space and time thus not subject to spatiality and temporality imposed by space and time there is no epistemological barrier to be overcome.  The explanation that appears most logical is one of the Passive Will wanting the fall not to occur, the Permissive Will permitting the Fall to occur.  But this issue is best addressed in the new topic header exploring Mormon metaphysics, ontology and cosmology and I rather spare those other who are following this thread the tedious topic which most person may not find interesting.  

 

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5 minutes ago, Ian Hall said:

The Christians would say that those who were in paradise entered heaven only at the resurrection when the suffering and death of the Christ was applied to them.

What is this if not Christ's Atonement applying retroactively - to those already in paradise when Christ died/was resurrected?

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45 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Christians believe Christ and His atonement saved Abraham (pre-Christ), Peter (Christ contemporary) and individuals nowadays (post-Christ).  This is not a unique LDS thing.  

Israel also had atoning or redemptive rituals that were viewed as applying then, though they were a type and shadow of things to come.  I have in mind the sin offering, the scape goat, and other sacrificial offerings. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

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Just now, zil said:
Quote

The Christians would say that those who were in paradise entered heaven only at the resurrection when the suffering and death of the Christ was applied to them.

What is this if not Christ's Atonement applying retroactively - to those already in paradise when Christ died/was resurrected?

The Xtians would say that thus occurs at the point of time of the resurrection and not applied in anticipation of the event and not when the fall occurs but only after the suffering and death occurs.

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1 hour ago, Ian Hall said:

@Jane_Doe

Rewrite it as you see fit to provide an accurate representation as possible.

That is ambiguous.  We spent something close to 60 comments to how the atonement because of statements such as "The Atonement applies to all, regardless of when you lived." are too vague and confusing.  Anyone reading such a statement would be trying to still figure out the difference between a person who lived prior to the atonement and a person who lived post atonement. 

Jews for example believe that the messiach will come and open the doors of heaven and the souls of those who passed from this life are in paradise/sheol awaiting the messiach being made known to them.

Christians would add that the messiach has already come and that the gates of heaven have been opened and the tzaddikim who resided in sheol/paradise entered into heaven.

So, each in this case would presume a condition/state exists which requires a messiach to remove.  No one could come to the understanding that this was a retroactive application of the atonement.

Soteriology deals with the theology regarding plan of salvation.  The "are you saved" mentality is not a traditional theology but a reaction born of the Second Great Awakening due to persons such as Jonathan Edwards and others who were influenced by a strain of Puritanism and Calvinist theology found in per-Independence America.  This might be considered "traditional" in the United States but no where else in the world.  It is an American phenomena found no where else.

 

I will enter this discussion with some thoughts of my own.  First I recognize that you see that principles seem complex and often in contradiction.  This is because there is much more happening than what we can measure empirically.   It is impossible to justify any logical principle when attempting to analyze human purpose within the parameters of birth and death.  This is one reason that religion has become at such odds with science.  In short nothing makes any sense at all.  One cannot justify even the simple principle of justice.

Myself being a scientist – it is obvious that traditional religions have made a mess trying to obtain any logical basis of religious principles – including justice and freedom.  Your foray into traditional Christianity is lacking wisdom from Buddhism, Hinduism, Jewism and Islam – let alone some of the lessor know theologies like Zoroasterism or some of what has been labeled as paganism that is finding some outlets and what is obviously a divers and confusing cacophony of religious ideas.  

You keep bring up the term “atonement”.  I am not sure but you do not seem to realize that the English term atonement is a made up word by Tyndale when he created the first English translation of the Bible.  Part of the reason Tyndale was burned at the stake was for the heresy of making up word that were considered to sacred to translate.  The obvious problem is that the English translation and attempt to use “atonement” is simply not well defined – therefor so many of religious stripe make whatever they want of it.  Your posts not excluded. 

Most Christians today think that the atonement is defined by the parameters of the sacrificial suffering and death of Christ.  You seem to be determined to not let any understanding to extend beyond that singular event.  Obviously I will not be able to account for things beyond your current scope of hearing seeing and understanding.  But I will make a logical effort with science.  Scientifically not all things are order temporally.  This is a confusing principle for most stuck in our current time-space understanding – that special relativity and applications of quantum physics just do not seem to logically fit.  For example, despite all efforts scientist have not been able to temporally order coupled quantum particles – even taking into account of when quantum particles are coupled.   

Religiously I would purport that G-d – that created quantum particles – is quite able to order things outside the bounds of temporal ordering.  In short G-d is not defined by the same considerations of space time that we are.  Thus – since the sins of those whose live events occurred before the suffering death and then resurrection of Christ could be of the same order as those whose life events occurred after.  But then if you do cannot grasps quantum coupling – when I speak, will not make any difference.

 

The Traveler

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3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

Israel also had atoning or redemptive rituals that were viewed as applying then, though they were a type and shadow of things to come.  I have in mind the sin offering, the scape goat, and other sacrificial offerings. 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Certainly.  Not redemptive but atoning, we see that when Nathan confronts David.  There is also Yom Kippur sacrifice etc as you stated.  In the olam haba ushered in by the messiach coming there would be a perfect bloodless sacrifice of thanksgiving.  Again all these anticipate a future event, not retroactive application of the atonement.  This is why I wanted some clarity.  It took 60 + posts to get to the point to beginning to understand the it was a retroactive application in anticipation of a future event.

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1 minute ago, Ian Hall said:

The Xtians would say that thus occurs at the point of time of the resurrection and not applied in anticipation of the event and not when the fall occurs but only after the suffering and death occurs.

Hmm.  Well, so would we.  The spirits in both prison and paradise had to remain there until Christ's resurrection.  At that point, the righteous dead no longer had to wait, but were resurrected.  For the spirits in prison, preachers were organized to preach the gospel to them and proxy ordinances began so that if they repented and accepted those ordinances, they could be freed from prison (though they must still await a future resurrection).

The only parts of Christ's Atonement which had effect before the event itself were (1) forgiveness of sins on condition of sincere repentance, and (2) receiving Grace to enable one to do better than they could do on their own:

Quote

It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts.

--Bible Dictionary entry for Grace

We believe that all prophets of God from Adam to the present day taught of Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation.

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4 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

We have moved beyond that point.  Please follow the conversion.  You did not provide an exposition as you claim to have provided.  I thought it would be in bad taste to call you make you look a fool in front of your peers, which I can very easily do.  So knock it off and stick to what you know.

So far, this is junior-high-school-level antiMormon thought portrayed in clunky, illogical, self-contradictory wording. Folks, sorry to burst your bubble, but Ian Hall is not a sincere seeker after LDS beliefs. Ian Hall is looking to establish his superiority to those slimy Mormons -- primarily by ignoring everything that proves his words bogus and by accusing others of being meanies for not accepting the honeyed truth drooling from his lips.

Ian Hall is -- dare I say it? -- a troll. I think things will go better when he is treated as such, unless and until he makes a real attempt to engage in honest conversation.

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Just now, Vort said:

C'mon, @zil. Get on the stick. Ian Hall is a busy man, what with all those Wikipedia articles he's editing.

I think after a rough start, Ian Hall may not be what he first appeared, so I'm going to give him a chance.  Certainly he and CV75 rub each other the wrong way, and his approach is nothing like what the average Latter-day Saint is accustomed to, but I'm game to try until I see stronger reason not to.  Maybe I'm practicing patience, or trying to learn how to explain what we believe to those who don't even understand our terminology (something I stink at), or just trying to suppress my inner jerk.  Or maybe I'm avoiding real work.

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2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

requirement soteriological requirement

I would have assumed an experienced Wikipedia editor to be beyond such things.

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

he spirit children of Ahman

Seriously? Have you ever actually heard real, in-the-flesh Mormons use the term "Ahman" as you have done?

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

The oldest spirit child Jesus volunteers to become the savoir through whose atonement immortality is restored and sin is forgiven.

Your typos belie your exalted status as a Wikipedia editor*. More worrisome is your phrase "immortality is restored", which indicates that you really have no idea what you're talking about. That's a bad way for someone to be who's supposed to be writing an informative article.

*Note bene: Many posters here have contributed to Wikipedia, so your claim as a "Wikipedia editor" is greeted with not much more than a slight raise of eyebrows that anyone would mention such a mundane fact. Kind of like saying you have five fingers on your left hand or that you shave occasionally.

In what way do you think that Latter-day Saints believe that Christ's atonement "restored" immortality? Restored to whom? Our spirits are already immortal, so there was no restoration there. I, for one, have never been physically immortal, so if I attain such a state, it won't be a restoration. What exactly are you trying to say with your obviously wrong phrase?

2 hours ago, Ian Hall said:

When the fall occurs mortality and sin enter the world.  Ahman immediately, applies

There's "Ahman" again. Where exactly do you get your sense of LDS terminology? Because you have done an exceptionally poor job of it.

By the way: Pick a tense and stick with it. Your constant shift between present and simple past (and some weird indicative-based tense where one might say "sin enter the world") makes even less comprehensible your already unfortunate prose.

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