What do you think about pre Adamites?

[Traveler]

Something interesting in history.  When Michel Angelo was painting the Sistine Chapel he went to a priest to ask if Adam had a billy button.  The result of that question nearly started a civil war.  In response Michel pained a fig leaf over that part of Adam's anatomy - perhaps as what in shame is the nakedness needed to be covered then and now?  

 

The Traveler

[Guest Scott]

Quote

We have it stated TWICE in the Pearl of Great Price and once in Genesis that Adam was created from the dust of the Earth

It is worth noting that "dust" could mean anything.   The Hebrew word from which scriptures are translated is afar.   It simply means materials.  It doesn't mean what we think of dust, as in the particles we think of that are blowing around in the wind or the stuff you dust off your table.  It means any material or combination therein.

Quote

Moses 3 makes it clear that the creation of the plants, animals and men spoken of in Moses 2, and in Genesis 1, is a spiritual creation

What is a spiritual creation?   I haven't seen it defined anywhere.  Just because something is spiritual doesn't mean that it doesn't have subsistence.   Jesus is a spiritual being, but still has a body of flesh and bones.  

Edited September 5, 2018 by Scott

[BJ64]

57 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

According to chapter 3 of the Book of Moses, there could have been no pre-Adamites because Adam was the very first being of flesh and bone to exist on this earth, at least insofar as this creation is concerned (i.e. the creation of which we are now a part).Moses 3 makes it clear that the creation of the plants, animals and men spoken of in Moses 2, and in Genesis 1, is a spiritual creation, not the physical/temporal creation of plants, animals and men. Therefore, if the creation narrative in the Book of Moses can be relied upon, the so-called evidence for organic evolution found in the earth’s fossil record must pertain to another creation that preexisted and is not a part of the creation spoken of in Genesis 1-2 and Moses 2-3. It causes one to wonder if the fossil record from another creation was deliberately left here on this earth by the Lord in order to test the faith of men in order to determine if they will trust in the arm of flesh (evolutionary science) or in the revelations of God.

As one can see from the following passages from Moses 3, it’s exceedingly difficult to read and understand the plain meaning of the words and then somehow twist them to imagine that Adam wasn’t the first being of flesh and bone to exist in this earthly creation of which we are a part...

3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3)

I agree with you except that I would add that I am open to the idea that other human like beings and dinosaurs and everything we have evidence of lived upon this earth at a time before Adam and Eve and then the earth was cleansed and renewed and became the earth Adam and Eve were placed on and as such Adam was the first of all flash upon the earth as it became in the days of the garden of Eden.

[BJ64]

50 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Something interesting in history.  When Michel Angelo was painting the Sistine Chapel he went to a priest to ask if Adam had a billy button.  The result of that question nearly started a civil war.  In response Michel pained a fig leaf over that part of Adam's anatomy - perhaps as what in shame is the nakedness needed to be covered then and now?  

 

The Traveler

Interesting story.

I believe Adam had a belly button because I believe he was born of an immortal woman.

[BJ64]

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

We have it stated TWICE in the Pearl of Great Price and once in Genesis that Adam was created from the dust of the Earth, and at least once in the Pearl of Great Price that the Lord breathed the breathe of life into him which seems to counter what is stated above, BUT, because we do not know the details of how this was actually done...

As I see it we are all created from the dust of this earth. Everything on this earth is created from the dust of the earth or another words the elements of the earth. Everything we eat is from the earth every cell in our body is from the earth. There is no part in our physical body which is not of this earth, except perhaps the genetic code.

How this worked with Adam and Eve as I see it, and this is of course my opinion though it’s based on teachings of early church leaders, is that our immortal heavenly parents came to this earth to the garden of Eden and partook of the dust of this earth or in other words the food of this earth and created the immortal bodies of Adam and Eve in the same manner that we create our children from the dust of the earth.

Brigham Young said,

“And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them."

I believe that the declaration made in these two scriptures is literally true. God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. (Journal of Discourses, 11:122)

---

 

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, BJ64 said:

Interesting story.

I believe Adam had a belly button because I believe he was born of an immortal woman.

It is not so much that I disagree - but this creates a lot more problems than it solves.  Both scientifically and religiously.

😁  Sorry I could not pass up the "creates" pun.

 

The Traveler

[BJ64]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

It is not so much that I disagree - but this creates a lot more problems than it solves.  Both scientifically and religiously.

😁  Sorry I could not pass up the "creates" pun.

 

The Traveler

I believe that Adam and Eve were both born of our heavenly parents and to me this solves all of the problems. 

It also fits right in with the quote I posted of Brigham Young.

[Jersey Boy]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I agree with you except that I would add that I am open to the idea that other human like beings and dinosaurs and everything we have evidence of lived upon this earth at a time before Adam and Eve and then the earth was cleansed and renewed and became the earth Adam and Eve were placed on and as such Adam was the first of all flash upon the earth as it became in the days of the garden of Eden.

You’re making my point.

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, BJ64 said:

As I see it we are all created from the dust of this earth. Everything on this earth is created from the dust of the earth or another words the elements of the earth. Everything we eat is from the earth every cell in our body is from the earth. There is no part in our physical body which is not of this earth, except perhaps the genetic code.

How this worked with Adam and Eve as I see it, and this is of course my opinion though it’s based on teachings of early church leaders, is that our immortal heavenly parents came to this earth to the garden of Eden and partook of the dust of this earth or in other words the food of this earth and created the immortal bodies of Adam and Eve in the same manner that we create our children from the dust of the earth.

Brigham Young said,

“And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them."

I believe that the declaration made in these two scriptures is literally true. God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. (Journal of Discourses, 11:122)

---

 

Hope you do not mind a question - Who created your children - your and your wife or G-d and his wife?  There is something else in scripture called the "Breath of Life".  and What does it mean the Eve is the mother of all living?  Does that mean all humans living or is there more to it.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, BJ64 said:

As I see it we are all created from the dust of this earth. Everything on this earth is created from the dust of the earth or another words the elements of the earth. Everything we eat is from the earth every cell in our body is from the earth. There is no part in our physical body which is not of this earth, except perhaps the genetic code.

How this worked with Adam and Eve as I see it, and this is of course my opinion though it’s based on teachings of early church leaders, is that our immortal heavenly parents came to this earth to the garden of Eden and partook of the dust of this earth or in other words the food of this earth and created the immortal bodies of Adam and Eve in the same manner that we create our children from the dust of the earth.

Brigham Young said,

“And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them."

I believe that the declaration made in these two scriptures is literally true. God has made His children like Himself to stand erect, and has endowed them with intelligence and power and dominion over all His works and given them the same attributes which He Himself possesses. He created man, as we create our children; for there is no other process of creation in heaven, on the earth, in the earth, or under the earth, or in all the eternities, that is, that were, or that ever will be. (Journal of Discourses, 11:122)

---

 

While I’m in general agreement with President Young, there’s only one problem with his statemen and that’s that when the bodies of those who died many years ago have become nothing but dust the Lord is able to recreate those bodies in a resurrection process that’s exactly like the molding a human body from inanimate clay and giving it life without the need for birth from a woman. So it appears God IS able to form and give life to a human body with nothing but dust and without a woman to form the body and give it birth. So there’s a possibility that the creation of Adam was some kind of resurrection.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[BJ64]

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Hope you do not mind a question - Who created your children - your and your wife or G-d and his wife?  There is something else in scripture called the "Breath of Life".  and What does it mean the Eve is the mother of all living?  Does that mean all humans living or is there more to it.

 

The Traveler

I would say that my wife and I created the bodies of our children through a process that was handed down from our Heavenly Parents through Adam and Eve. However the part of placing the spirit into the body I would suppose is Gods part in this creation of our children. I suppose this would be the breath of life part. 

I would say that Eve is the mother of the human race upon this planet. 

[BJ64]

2 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

While I’m in general agreement with President Young, there’s only one problem with his statemen and that’s that when the bodies of those who died many years ago have become nothing but dust the Lord is able to recreate those bodies in a resurrection process that’s exactly like the molding a human body from inanimate clay and giving it life without the need for birth from a woman. So it appears God IS able to form and give life to a human body with nothing but dust and without a woman to form the body and give it birth. So there’s a possibility that the creation of Adam was some kind of resurrection.

The resurrection puzzles me because while I can understand conception and birth, I don’t understand how the resurrection will take place. As you say, somehow the body will be reformed out of some sort of matter and will no longer be subject to death. How that works I have no clue. 

[Jersey Boy]

12 minutes ago, BJ64 said:

The resurrection puzzles me because while I can understand conception and birth, I don’t understand how the resurrection will take place. As you say, somehow the body will be reformed out of some sort of matter and will no longer be subject to death. How that works I have no clue. 

The omniscient and omnipotent God has the knowledge and power needed to bring to pass the glorious resurrection of the dead. God is a God of mighty miracles.

[Traveler]

17 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I would say that my wife and I created the bodies of our children through a process that was handed down from our Heavenly Parents through Adam and Eve. However the part of placing the spirit into the body I would suppose is Gods part in this creation of our children. I suppose this would be the breath of life part. 

I would say that Eve is the mother of the human race upon this planet. 

Again - not that I disagree but the scriptures talk about the "breath of life" in association with animals - not just humans.  Which would make sense if this is speaking of coupling spirits with physical tabernacles.  However, there is, at least for me, a sort-of unexpected twist in the revelation that Eve is not just the "mother of the human race" as your have implied but "the mother of all living".  Human life begins as a single cell which evolves into a very complex human child through a gestation process in the womb of the mother.  Have you considered the possibility that if all of this process was understood to it fullest extent - that rather than all life springing from a single lower source and evolving - that all life springs from the higher source from which all lower creatures evolve?  That humans are the secret of life?

We are entering a rather interesting era of scientific discovery in the field of genetic engineering.  It was once thought that the genesis of life happened when the perfect environment on earth allowed a "random" event to produce an initial life type - but this theory just is not panning out.  More and more are coming to the conclusion that life could not have sprang into being on earth - but else where and that the earth was seeded with something alien and distant.  I would also add - intelligent.

It is my impression that our current understanding is like standing by an ocean  on a beach with a cup - then we walk a little distance into the serf and capture a small portion of ocean in our cup.  We study our cup sample and think we understand the ocean but in reality we have no idea of the wonders of the ocean far beyond our little cup sample.  And so I wonder why it is that we humans think because we discover some little thing we have the answer to so many other things that we shut out so many possibilities thinking we know enough.

One last observation - it is the inquiring curious mind that learns - seldom if ever, is it the mind that thinks it understands and has solved the puzzle.  I am especially concerned that the Saints of G-d would think that the majority of what is necessary to be enlightened and divine is currently available to us - if it is then it is the ocean before us and not just what is in our little cup.

 

The Traveler

Edited September 6, 2018 by Traveler

[SpiritDragon]

Quote

What do you think about pre Adamites?

To be honest I don't think about pre Adamites.

However, since you asked, I have thought about it a little recently. In simplest terms, I don't believe in mortal predecessors to Adam and Eve. Any human bones thought to predate Adam I would reconcile as either remnants from another creation or faulty understanding of dating bone on the part of man. Doesn't matter to me to either way. It's not something that eats at me and cankers my testimony. One other option I have considered, but am less inclined to believe is that we simply don't know how long it's been since the Fall. I'm pretty sure that there has been some modern revelation speaking to the timeline of this earth's history, but I can't remember anything off hand so I should look into it, I suppose.

[Traveler]

20 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

To be honest I don't think about pre Adamites.

However, since you asked, I have thought about it a little recently. In simplest terms, I don't believe in mortal predecessors to Adam and Eve. Any human bones thought to predate Adam I would reconcile as either remnants from another creation or faulty understanding of dating bone on the part of man. Doesn't matter to me to either way. It's not something that eats at me and cankers my testimony. One other option I have considered, but am less inclined to believe is that we simply don't know how long it's been since the Fall. I'm pretty sure that there has been some modern revelation speaking to the timeline of this earth's history, but I can't remember anything off hand so I should look into it, I suppose.

Here is a thought you might not have considered - pending on where the Garden of Eden was actually located and if Adam was mortal and could not exceed the speed of light - he would not notice but seconds whereas the earth could pass through billions of years.   It is interesting that when Adam and Eve left the garden to arrive in the world that they would spend the mortal days that the entire world seem to be up and fully running as a fallen world and all the creatures were genetically, mentally and spiritually in survival mode.

 

The Traveler

[BJ64]

20 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

To be honest I don't think about pre Adamites.

However, since you asked, I have thought about it a little recently. In simplest terms, I don't believe in mortal predecessors to Adam and Eve. Any human bones thought to predate Adam I would reconcile as either remnants from another creation or faulty understanding of dating bone on the part of man. Doesn't matter to me to either way. It's not something that eats at me and cankers my testimony. One other option I have considered, but am less inclined to believe is that we simply don't know how long it's been since the Fall. I'm pretty sure that there has been some modern revelation speaking to the timeline of this earth's history, but I can't remember anything off hand so I should look into it, I suppose.

I believe that using the Bible timeline people estimate the fall to have been something like 5000 to 7000 years ago. Much more recent than bones that are said to be 10,000 or more years old. 

[Blackmarch]

On 9/4/2018 at 1:43 PM, BJ64 said:

Given the fact that there exists upon this earth the remains of pre-humans where do you think they fit in the scheme of things?

nothing says what process God sent the dust through to form man.... which leaves a lot of room for intrepretation. uplift, mimicry or paralellism, and patterning are few possible options.

also take dates on both sides of the fence with a good size chunk of salt.

 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Blackmarch

[SpiritDragon]

10 hours ago, BJ64 said:

I believe that using the Bible timeline people estimate the fall to have been something like 5000 to 7000 years ago. Much more recent than bones that are said to be 10,000 or more years old. 

Indeed. This is why I would figure that either the bones were part of the unorganized matter that became part of this creation, which could also account for dinosaurs and the like, or that we aren't understanding something about the timeline accurately. Are we dating bones as much older than they truly are? Did the Fall happen much farther in the past than we suspect. One problem with the idea that the fall took place farther back though is that we believe we are in the last days and that the saviour came in the meridian of time only 2000 years ago. So unless we believe the last days will be prolonged for thousands of years this particular point doesn't work for me.

[goor_de]

On 9/5/2018 at 1:14 AM, CV75 said:

I think these two ideas can both be true, and reconciled as follows:

Upon the Fall, all creation was destroyed and was subsequently revived following purely natural laws since Adam and Eve, having been given dominion from the beginning, chose those laws to operate over the laws of Eden by eating the forbidding fruit.

Adam and Eve were “taken up” to where they came from until billions of years later, the natural physical laws resulted in an appropriate time and condition on this Earth for them to begin the seven-seal covenant history.

 

 

in the case of adam and eva, the animals died outside the garden.

Adam took the animals out of the garden.

These are our species

mass graves prove this

I think it was like this

 

excuse my English

[goor_de]

On 9/8/2018 at 5:27 AM, Blackmarch said:

nothing says what process God sent the dust through to form man.... which leaves a lot of room for intrepretation. uplift, mimicry or paralellism, and patterning are few possible options.

also take dates on both sides of the fence with a good size chunk of salt.

 

 

i think brigham young .

Adam and Eve are not from this earth

[Guest]

On 9/4/2018 at 2:49 PM, Anddenex said:

There are two theories (could be more) from prophets I have read:

1) Brigham Young (someone feel free to correct me if I am quoting him wrong) said the Lord commanded Adam and Eve to "replenish" the earth. This meant that there were people on the earth, outside of the garden who were living and dying. Or, simply meaning at one point the earth was populated (all species now dead) and Adam and Eve were to repopulate the earth.

2) Joseph Fielding Smith (In correlation with this) said No. Adam and Eve were the first (condensed version of his whole words)

If Joseph Fielding Smith is correct, then our understanding of pre-Adamites is incorrect. If Brigham Young is correct, well, then Adam and Eve truly "replenished" the earth.

"Plenish" is not, nor has it ever been, a part of the English language.  The "re" is not a prefix in "replenish" any more than it is for "rest" or "regulate" or "relative". 

I'd like to see Brigham's statement on that because it goes counter to what he said elsewhere about the earth being in the celestial sphere and was hurtled out at the fall.  The details matter.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Guest

[goor_de]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

"Plenish" is not, nor has it ever been, a part of the English language.  The "re" is not a prefix in "replenish" any more than it is for "rest" or "regulate" or "relative". 

I'd like to see Brigham's statement on that because it goes counter to what he said elsewhere about the earth being in the celestial sphere and was hurtled out at the fall.  The details matter.

 

it had to give life outside the garden.

Otherwise the fertilizer is missing

 

i think

the ground was prepared
for Adam

[Anddenex]

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

"Plenish" is not, nor has it ever been, a part of the English language.  The "re" is not a prefix in "replenish" any more than it is for "rest" or "regulate" or "relative". 

I'd like to see Brigham's statement on that because it goes counter to what he said elsewhere about the earth being in the celestial sphere and was hurtled out at the fall.  The details matter.

I am not finding anything from Brigham Young and it could have been Orson Hyde I read.

[10] “The meaning of the word replenish is, to refill, recomplete. If I were to go into a merchant’s store, and find he had got a new stock of goods, I should say—‘You have  replenished your stock, that is, filled up your establishment, for it looks as it did before.’ ‘Now go forth,’ says the Lord, ‘and replenish the earth.’ . . . The world was peopled before the days of Adam, as much so as it was before the days of Noah. . . . When God said, Go forth and replenish the earth; it was to replenish the inhabitants of the human species.” Orson Hyde, “The Marriage Relations,” Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1855–86), 2:79.

Quote

What does the term replenish mean? This word is derived from the Latin; "re" and "plenus;" "re" denotes repetition, iteration; and "plenus" signifies full, complete; then the meaning of the word replenish is, to refill, recomplete. If I were to go into a merchant's store, and find he had got a new stock of goods, I should say − "You have replenished your stock, that is, filled up your establishment, for it looks as it did before."

[11] Joseph Fielding Smith dealt with a question regarding the word replenish in an Improvement Era article, subsequently included in Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957–66), 1:208–11.

 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Anddenex

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Anddenex said:

[10] “The meaning of the word replenish is, to refill, recomplete. If I were to go into a merchant’s store, and find he had got a new stock of goods, I should say—‘You have  replenished your stock, that is, filled up your establishment, for it looks as it did before.’ ‘Now go forth,’ says the Lord, ‘and replenish the earth.’ . . . The world was peopled before the days of Adam, as much so as it was before the days of Noah. . . . When God said, Go forth and replenish the earth; it was to replenish the inhabitants of the human species.” Orson Hyde, “The Marriage Relations,” Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. (London: Latter-day Saints’ Book Depot, 1855–86), 2:79.

He is linguistically incorrect.