BJ64

What do you think about pre Adamites?

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On 9/25/2018 at 9:07 AM, MrShorty said:

Two opposing thoughts about the "miracle of lengthening a day"

1) Do I believe the account in Josh 10 is a literal, historical, factual (as a 21st century man would understand those terms) account or not. This gets at the question of Biblical literalism that I mentioned. Do I believe that the sun and moon really "froze" in their apparent motions? Or do I believe that the "author" of Joshua exaggerated the event as a way of saying, "See! Our God is bigger than your god(s)!" (which, I have read elsewhere, was not uncommon among "historians" of this time period).

Considering that the account was written to a people believing in a geocentric universe, am I supposed to read the account as if it occurred in a geocentric universe or knowing what I know in the 21st century about astronomical motions (including Newton-like laws)?

2) If I assume a 21st century interpretation of the miracle in Josh 10, I see that God would have to suspend a lot of natural laws of motion in order to cause the sun and moon to temporarily cease their "motions", and then suspend those laws again when those motions are restarted 24 hours later. Wikipedia notes that the radioactive decay at the heart of radiometric dating is controlled almost exclusively by nuclear forces inside of the atom. From my limited perspective, I don't see anything about suspending planetary scale laws of motion that necessitates suspending/altering the laws that control radioactive decay, but that doesn't mean that and omnipotent, omniscient God knows or acts according to my limited knowledge.

As I have noted elsewhere, the real challenge posed by these kinds of miracles, IMO, seems to be to challenge the basic tenet of science -- uniformitarianism. Using a miracle like Josh 10 sounds to me like "uniformitarianism is only good back to some great miracle/catastrophe when God completely disrupts natural law, then what do I do?". I can assume that I can extrapolate across the gap, so that my known laws extend before and after the miracle as if the miracle did not occur (which seems to be what we mostly do). But questions like this come across to me as saying that one should not extrapolate across the discontinuity. The argument then seems to come in favor Biblical literalism, which, as I noted, I am not sold on.

What parts of science do I accept? It's all good back to Joshua, but science has nothing to say about the universe before Joshua?

Here are thoughts in light of this:

1) Are you sure God is disrupting natural law, or is the understanding of what is natural not yet up to God's knowledge and ability? I keep hearing God disrupts natural law from members who define themselves as more scientific minded and atheists. There are telestial laws, their are terrestrial laws, and there are Celestial laws. In a telestial world we see death. In a terrestrial world there is no death, there is no sickness, no pain, etc..., which would then according to scientific natural laws disrupt.

It is said that every miracle is done according to law, natural law (whether that natural law be telestial, terrestrial, or celestial), and yet for some reason people want to think that miracles go against natural law - at least the natural law according to their limited understanding of what laws are out there, and what truly a "natural law" as seen and known by God. The changing of water to wine is a natural law God knows, and is able to command. This isn't as some on here describe as a "poof" because it can occur in a time quicker than what the "natural man" expects.

These ideas bring up the scripture found in Isaiah where God explains to us that his ways are higher than our ways, and his knowledge is higher (greater) than our knowledge.

2) I accept science that is common, not theoretical which is from the limited understanding of natural laws man currently has, and then I have no understanding as to why people would say that God holds to man's limited knowledge of any subject because somehow 'humans" have reached such a level of understanding in science (even greater than God) that he can't perform the miracles he has performed.

Example, in the Book of Mormon God extends the light of day for one day, a night, and another day in a geographical area where the sun should have not shown bright. And yet (as this is after Joshua) the Nephites knew the time and day, and therefore according to "natural laws" (their understood natural laws) they knew the sun should have gone down and it should have been dark. The light still showed, and it was day during the dark night.

Did God disrupt the natural laws here, or does God know more than the creatures he has created? Yes, God definitely knows more than the creatures he created, and God is not limited by 21st century understanding of science and natural laws.

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This is well outside my own expertise, but according to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating#Dating_considerations ), those who do radiocarbon dating are well aware of how changes over time and location to the C14/C12 ratio can impact their measurements. There is apparently a long history (Wikipedia claims it started in the '60s) of trying to account for those variations through time and space in the C14/C12 ratio. I guess, in conclusion, the calculations is based solely on what we know, which includes estimates of how the C14/C12 ratio has changed over the last tens of thousands of years.

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On 9/5/2018 at 6:17 AM, mirkwood said:

The earth was organized from available material.  I believe that includes planets that at one time had life and left behind their remains.  If that is true, than why would anyone be surprised to find ancient bones/remains.

Hello @mirkwood I'm curious about this because the image it creates in my mind is something like a cosmic recycling which sounds fine when I think in terms of a super nova and recombinations of atoms. But upon mention of our finding ancient bones and thinking of them as part of the "available material" I become skeptical. Do I misunderstand you? Can you clarify this idea for me?

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God has created worlds without end, many of which will have had life (will have life).  That could easily include dinosaurs, whose remains were left behind when their mortal state ended.  That planet, no longer inhabited, becomes as you said, recycled, along with the materials within it.  That's the opinion of mirkwood.

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37 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

God has created worlds without end, many of which will have had life (will have life).  That could easily include dinosaurs, whose remains were left behind when their mortal state ended.  That planet, no longer inhabited, becomes as you said, recycled, along with the materials within it.  That's the opinion of mirkwood.

That is my thoughts as well.

 

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3 hours ago, pam said:
3 hours ago, mirkwood said:

God has created worlds without end, many of which will have had life (will have life).  That could easily include dinosaurs, whose remains were left behind when their mortal state ended.  That planet, no longer inhabited, becomes as you said, recycled, along with the materials within it.  That's the opinion of mirkwood.

That is my thoughts as well.

The reason I am disinclined to accept this type of theory (which I think is fairly prominent among members of the Church) is that it presupposes that a planet would be recycled rather than resurrected and glorified.  If we accept the Doctrine & Covenants as true (and we do), the only doctrine it teaches related to a planet is that this earth has a spirit and that it will be glorified and exalted, thus becoming a celestial kingdom for those of us who will inherit that glory.

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If the only thing we have any revelation on about planets is that ours will be glorified and exalted, why would we go the opposite direction and assume that a different planet would fulfill its purpose and then be destroyed / recycled to become part of a different creation?  Perhaps it could be so, but in relation to existing scripture, it seems outside the scope of a reasonable extrapolation.  This is further reinforced by the common acceptance that there is an infinite supply of matter in the universe, hence, why would God recycle something that is presumably already eligible for eternal life rather than use new materials to give the same opportunity to another creation?

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On 9/23/2018 at 3:09 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Well,...that's quite foolish of you. :)

Why so?

If it is really science that is offering it rather than someone's agenda masquerading as science?

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8 hours ago, person0 said:

 

 

If the only thing we have any revelation on about planets is that ours will be glorified and exalted, why would we go the opposite direction and assume that a different planet would fulfill its purpose and then be destroyed / recycled to become part of a different creation?  Perhaps it could be so, but in relation to existing scripture, it seems outside the scope of a reasonable extrapolation.  

Perhaps an uninhabited planet's measure of creation is to provide materials for an "earth".  Not so far outside reasonable extrapolation at all. 

Quote

This is further reinforced by the common acceptance that there is an infinite supply of matter in the universe, hence, why would God recycle something that is presumably already eligible for eternal life rather than use new materials to give the same opportunity to another creation?

Assuming that an uninhabited planet (material) will be given eternal life in a non life state is much more outside of any reasonable extrapolation than what I suggest.  

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47 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

. . . a non life state . . . 

Please elaborate.  Are you suggesting that a planet where creatures (such as dinosaurs) experience mortality would potentially be in a non-living state?  How could the necessary biological processes required occur without life?

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On ‎9‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 7:28 AM, person0 said:

Please elaborate.  Are you suggesting that a planet where creatures (such as dinosaurs) experience mortality would potentially be in a non-living state?  How could the necessary biological processes required occur without life?

The dinosaurs died, no need for the planet anymore.

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Here a a few ideas.

1. Not all truth is needed to be understood for salvation and exaltation.

2. It is prophesy that knowledge will increase in the "fullness" of times (our time).  It is obvious that this knowledge is both a restoration of religious principles, ordinances and covenants, as well as scientific knowledge.  So rapidly is knowledge increasing that many professions require retraining - almost yearly to keep up with the "cutting edge" of technology and new information in specific fields.  So also is revelation changing even how we understand the priesthood - even how to divide quorums and priesthood groups for basic operation of general church congregation and solemn assemblies. 

3. For 75+ years the bulk of empirical evidence (with new discoveries and methods) are trending towards evolution, billions of year old earth and that intelligent humanoids using tools walked the earth before the Scriptural account of the fall of Adam and Eve was revealed - and that these humanoids had our same DNA and are no more genetically diverse from modern humans than modern humans are from each other. 

4. There is much more to be revealed - both concerning religious principles of salvation directly related to the Kingdom of G-d and the Plan of Salvation as well as our scientific understanding of our universe and the elements and principles that shape and maintain it.

I am convinced that there is yet a lot more to learn and my personal plan is to learn as much as I can about everything I have the opportunity to learn - but mostly I desire more revelation to prepare the Saints for the time when Jesus will return and make all things known.

 

The Traveler

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Traveler said:

3. For 75+ years the bulk of empirical evidence (with new discoveries and methods) are trending towards evolution, billions of year old earth and that intelligent humanoids using tools walked the earth before the Scriptural account of the fall of Adam and Eve was revealed - and that these humanoids had our same DNA and are no more genetically diverse from modern humans than modern humans are from each other

I would debate the "empirical" part of that. It's more correct to say that it is "the leading opinion" of scientists...

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16 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

I would debate the "empirical" part of that. It's more correct to say that it is "the leading opinion" of scientists...

 

DNA is empirical evidence - not opinion.  So also is the half life of radio active elements.  It is the science of elemental particle decay that has created nuclear power plants and weapons.   None of which was understood 100 years ago and none of which occur based on the whim or opinion of scientist.

 

The Traveler

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20 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

And, if you asked humanity 500 years ago about dinosaurs being extinct for millions of years they would laugh to death. They made them extinct. Oh the frailties of man

500 years ago they (humanity) did not know that dinosaurs ever even existed.  It was about then that common people would be put to death for reading the Bible by the very religious institutions that claimed the Bible to be G-d's word - and it was that same mentality that determined that the world was 5,500 years old.  Even according to prophesy recorded in scripture it was a time of apostasy from light and truth - thought the foundations of restoration of truth were being set though the restoration would not be for a few hundred years - it was not a time of shining human intelligence and achievement.  

 

The Traveler

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500 years ago (which would be during Copernicus's lifetime and before Galileo was born and imprisoned for preaching heliocentrism), the dominant cosmology (in Western thought) was the geocentric Aristotilian/Ptolemaic model. Most people did not really begin to explore the possibility that species could even go extinct before the 17th century. Sure people 500 years ago might laugh at me (or stone me, I'm not sure which) for suggesting 21st century science. However, I'm not sure how much I want to judge the validity of 21st century cosmological models based on the opinions of 16th century humans.

Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_paleontology   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_cosmological_theories

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1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

3. For 75+ years the bulk of empirical evidence (with new discoveries and methods) are trending towards evolution, billions of year old earth and that intelligent humanoids using tools walked the earth before the Scriptural account of the fall of Adam and Eve was revealed - and that these humanoids had our same DNA and are no more genetically diverse from modern humans than modern humans are from each other. 

 

 

no two people have the same DNA

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

...said the man to his identical twin...

For example, identical twins do not have the same fingerprint
to list the complete DNA is very difficult

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2 minutes ago, goor_de said:

For example, identical twins do not have the same fingerprint
to list the complete DNA is very difficult

Fingerprints are not determined by your DNA.

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