"Socially responsible investing"


myrmidon
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I am an avid investor of my own portfolios to include my workplace plans. Years ago I invested quite a bit of money in some funds which are in Tobacco, Alcohol and Pharma among many other categories. These are part of my portfolio which is intended to not only pay dividends, but to also provide some downside protection during recessions, corrections etc.

Some of my investments are as follows: Pfizer, Carnival Cruise lines, Wynn Hotels, Constellation Brands, Altria, Visa, Mastercard, Crown Holdings, L Brands, Rockwell Automation, Starbucks, Brown Forman, Norwegian Cruises


It would seem contrary to my LDS beliefs to invest in such stuff since we believe that is all bad. I have done this for years as I feel it is a sound investment strategy. 

I am curious if anyone has an opinion as to whether or not it is appropriate to invest this way. I feel it is ok, because we have to grow our money to become self-sufficient. Typically some people with very strong beliefs wont invest in companies that go against their beliefs like guns, tobacco, Alcohol, Gambling, Debt etc. 

Edited by myrmidon
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This almost feels like bait. If you want to be a vice lord that is up to you. I am not sure if filthy lucre is accepted in heaven. I know the question goes deeper than this as companies often produce many different products both good and bad. Support the good and turn away from the evil.

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26 minutes ago, Overwatch said:

This almost feels like bait. If you want to be a vice lord that is up to you. I am not sure if filthy lucre is accepted in heaven. I know the question goes deeper than this as companies often produce many different products both good and bad. Support the good and turn away from the evil.

Thank you for your response! I'll place a mark in the "bad" category.

Edited by myrmidon
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1 hour ago, myrmidon said:

I am curious if anyone has an opinion as to whether or not it is appropriate to invest this way. I feel it is ok, because we have to grow our money to become self-sufficient. Typically some people with very strong beliefs wont invest in companies that go against their beliefs like guns, tobacco, Alcohol, Gambling, Debt etc. 

The only person's who's opinion matter is the Lord.... What is he telling you?

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2 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

You really need to learn to educate yourself and not depend on others to do it for you... What part of between you (or me) and the Lord is unclear?

I feel they are solid investments (when strictly talking money) for the most part. I'm curious if you have a problem with them based on LDS beliefs, not their viability in a portfolio. 

Edited by myrmidon
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9 hours ago, myrmidon said:

I feel they are solid investments (when strictly talking money) for the most part. I'm curious if you have a problem with them based on LDS beliefs, not their viability in a portfolio. 

Why do you care what I think?  I am a total stranger... More importantly why has this become an issue for you now?  You have happily been holding these stocks for years... Why are you questioning them now?  Finding out why this is an issue now would be a better indicator of what how you should respond then any opinion I might have

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Guest MormonGator

When asked if he would ever do business with someone who was "unethical" a professor said "You want me to say no, and I'd like say no. But the truth is that the world is a complex place and you can't always pick and choose who are your clients and sometimes, who are your partners." Was he right? I think so. 

It's clearly bothering you, so perhaps that's a good indicator that you should not move forward with your investments.

That said, you need to feed your family and plan your future. If you become really OCD about it, you could probably find something wrong with every single company out there. So use common sense. 

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On 9/8/2018 at 10:41 PM, myrmidon said:

I am an avid investor of my own portfolios to include my workplace plans. Years ago I invested quite a bit of money in some funds which are in Tobacco, Alcohol and Pharma among many other categories. These are part of my portfolio which is intended to not only pay dividends, but to also provide some downside protection during recessions, corrections etc.

Some of my investments are as follows: Pfizer, Carnival Cruise lines, Wynn Hotels, Constellation Brands, Altria, Visa, Mastercard, Crown Holdings, L Brands, Rockwell Automation, Starbucks, Brown Forman, Norwegian Cruises


It would seem contrary to my LDS beliefs to invest in such stuff since we believe that is all bad. I have done this for years as I feel it is a sound investment strategy. 

I am curious if anyone has an opinion as to whether or not it is appropriate to invest this way. I feel it is ok, because we have to grow our money to become self-sufficient. Typically some people with very strong beliefs wont invest in companies that go against their beliefs like guns, tobacco, Alcohol, Gambling, Debt etc. 

I use products from pfizer.  I am taking a cruise on carnival in a couple of months.  I have stayed at Wynn hotels and will do so in the future.  I use Visa almost daily.  I have had starbucks before and I have cruised on Norwegian.

I had no problem using these companies in the past and will probably use them in the future.  I suspect if you are willing to use those companies, there should be no issue investing in them.  But that is trying to bring logic into the discussion and some people don't appreciate logic.

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I used to try hard to make sure my money only went to wholesome places and enriched wholesome companies.  Then I realized that it was pretty much impossible as long as I wished to remain a (relatively) normal resident of the USA.  Gas for the car?  Saudi Arabia gets $$.  Shop at a store?  Odds are that store sells alcohol and is open on Sundays.  Buy clothing?  Almost impossible to not support companies operating in 3rd world nations paying borderline-slave wages to people in very subpar working conditions. 

Don't even get me started on paying taxes. :)

As far as investing goes, an unalterable fact of reality is that if you have assets/money, you need to do something with them.  You can leave them there, not take care of them, lend them out for profit, give them away, or invest them.  The Parable of the Talents gives us a little idea about what God wants from us, but it says nothing about the ways which the good stewards went about investing their money.  

Edited by NeuroTypical
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On 9/9/2018 at 6:32 AM, estradling75 said:

Why do you care what I think?  I am a total stranger... More importantly why has this become an issue for you now?  You have happily been holding these stocks for years... Why are you questioning them now?  Finding out why this is an issue now would be a better indicator of what how you should respond then any opinion I might have

 

On 9/8/2018 at 9:15 PM, estradling75 said:

You really need to learn to educate yourself and not depend on others to do it for you... What part of between you (or me) and the Lord is unclear?

 

On 9/8/2018 at 8:51 PM, estradling75 said:

The only person's who's opinion matter is the Lord.... What is he telling you?

Lay off Estradling! The very purpose of a forum is bounce ideas like this off each other.

On 9/8/2018 at 7:41 PM, myrmidon said:

I am an avid investor of my own portfolios to include my workplace plans. Years ago I invested quite a bit of money in some funds which are in Tobacco, Alcohol and Pharma among many other categories. These are part of my portfolio which is intended to not only pay dividends, but to also provide some downside protection during recessions, corrections etc.

Some of my investments are as follows: Pfizer, Carnival Cruise lines, Wynn Hotels, Constellation Brands, Altria, Visa, Mastercard, Crown Holdings, L Brands, Rockwell Automation, Starbucks, Brown Forman, Norwegian Cruises


It would seem contrary to my LDS beliefs to invest in such stuff since we believe that is all bad. I have done this for years as I feel it is a sound investment strategy. 

I am curious if anyone has an opinion as to whether or not it is appropriate to invest this way. I feel it is ok, because we have to grow our money to become self-sufficient. Typically some people with very strong beliefs wont invest in companies that go against their beliefs like guns, tobacco, Alcohol, Gambling, Debt etc. 

I love your concern and questioning on this. It is hard to answer this question because I solid yes or no would mean we could never shop at a grocery store that even sells coffee. That or it would be ok to invest in the adult toys industry.

Filthy lucre is a real issue. We should not make money via sinful or exploitive processes. To me, investing in a casino, alcohol company, tobacco company, or any direct producer of such substances or immoral activity would fit under filthy lucre. Investing in companies that are associated with these I would Not day isn’t wrong.

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I do not know the answer to this question. Would the mortal Jesus have invested in tobacco stocks and things associated with the pornography industry?

Does it matter what Jesus would have done? Is he really our exemplar in all things, or is there some point at which we must say that our situation is so fundamentally different from that of the Son of God that we can't really take a cue from what we suppose he might have done?

My spirit seems to rebel against that idea, but I do not know how to reconcile mortal life with such choices. I guess I don't know how to be in the world (a condition we cannot overcome) without being of the world. I don't think that justifies us, but I do not understand the solution.

One thing I am sure of: The solution is simple. Obvious, even. We are blind to it because we have been conditioned not to see it. It's beguiling to suppose that some people are honest enough to see clearly. When we hear people shouting about avoiding this or that, evolution is evil, don't eat refined sugar, look at these great essential oils, avoid all immunizations, etc., it can be tempting to attribute to them some sort of childlike innocence and lack of worldstain, and wonder if maybe they're right. But for the most part, such people are not right. They're ignorant. What's more, they actively ignore -- even eschew -- education on such matters. It's one thing to say that Dr. So-and-so may not know what he's talking about; it's quite another to insist that every published double-blind study that shows X is fraudulent, and that you know better than they.

Where does it end? I'm a homeschooler, and I am convinced that in almost every case, a dedicated and honest homeschooling parent can do a better job that pretty much any public school. Am I one of the deluded fools? I have serious reservations about the blatantly anti-scientific attitude of "consensus science", which is openly portrayed as, "All these SMART people agree that anthropogenic global warming will destroy us all! If YOU don't get on board, you're a DENIER and a LIAR!" Which of is is truly the ignorant fool? Or are we both?

I long to come out of Babylon and enter Zion. At least, I think I do. Will I feel that way when I discover that Zion's greeters are anti-vaxxers, survivalist nutjobs, and/or Democrats? Are my desires strong enough to overcome my own biases?

Stock market decisions. They seem so rife with corruption. But are such purchase decisions really much (if any) different from buying property in a city, or going to a movie, or shopping at a grocery store? Is it possible to live and interact in the world, yet remain unstained by it? Even in principle? If not, what are we to do? If so, how are we to know that principle and abide by it? I think the guidance of the Holy Ghost is ultimately the only possible answer.

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This is how I see it.

I look at a company to invest that are doing honest business.  Since I can't control which part of the business my investment goes to, I simply dedicate my investment to the good things the company does - e.g. Starbucks has great bentos and hot chocolate and they pay honest wages.

Now, where the metal hits the pedal is what I do with the gains I made from investing.  Am I using those gains for good or for ill?  That's the one that I have full control over for which I am 100% accountable for.

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3 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

My supernatural powers of mindreading had me wanting to ask Myr about the MormonLeaks reveal of the church's stock and mutual fund holdings.  But I thought they were the evil supernatural powers, so I was holding off.

It's not so much mind-reading, but more observing predictable patterns seen over and over again, and not being a fool.

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It is refreshing to see a few folks who know where they stand in issues even though others think I am a troll and those who respond are "fools."

A few years ago I read something which discussed Plan B pills. I was a bit dismayed to find out that Pfizer (a stock I owned at the time) was a manufacturer of these pills. I don't get bent out of shape about much and I don't really worry about social responsibility in investing, but abortion is not something I can have any kind of part in to include owning the stock of a company who profits off of selling Plan B pills. I liquidated my position in this stock the next day. As for the rest of my situation above- it remained the same. I have never cared much about owning tobacco, casinos, alcohol or whatever stocks. If it makes money I ma open to owning it.

Fast forward to this summer (someone above brought this up) I read a SLT article about $32B in stocks portfolios owned by the LDS Church. I though hey that's pretty cool. They don't hire idiots I'm curious what they are into. I always figured they had a good portfolio somewhere, but since all the finances are a secret even from the members, we can only guess.  I took this source in the paper with a grain of salt and I had never been to their website before. So off I went, followed the links and read what they had to say. I took a random sampling of the companies they claimed to be owned by the church and went to their SEC Filings (13F which are required for holdings of $100 Million or more) and verified they were indeed tied to the church to include company contact persons who were employees of the church. These docs are not leaks, they are public record. I do have to say, they were hiding in plain sight. Why they are in random names and "controlled" by some low level employee at the Church HQ is a question for another day though. 

I checked out the disclosed portfolios because I wanted to see what they invested in. The church hires pretty good talent and I figured I'd get some good ideas looking around in there. Investing is not only a hobby of mine, but I have built a sizeable portfolio over the years. Since I have studied many companies I am familiar with a lot of names and ticker symbols. I am also familiar with the general business these companies are either known for or at least involved in.

I will have to say I was surprised to see the companies I listed in my initial post on this. They do have many other positions which are not controversial. As I stated, I own them all except for the Pfizer one which I did liquidate. These portfolios are purpose built meaning they are not just some mutual fund round-up. These are individual stock selections with most being worth at least a few million each. These positions are no accident. Someone selected them for a reason. Now there are a few SP500 index funds in there and those contain pretty much every company listed in the SP500. Those are essentially mutual funds which are traded like a stock.

I was actually surprised to see many of the positions there as their companies are clearly in certain businesses. There is merit to being in them from a purely investment standpoint, but one has to ask whether or not morals or stated morals have a place in investing. Me- if it is abortion, Monsanto and now Nike I wont invest in it. Before I invest in any stock I investigate it. If I don't believe in the business I do not buy it. Whoever put these portfolios together for the church selected these stocks for a reason. It definitely was not a case of just being random. People in this business also know what these companies are and what they do. This is why I was taken a bit by surprise. Why would the church knowingly profit off of this stuff? As a stock holder, you are the owner of that piece of the company.

 

On to the stocks-

Altria(MO) - Tobacco such as Marlboro, Copenhagen. They also own a wine business and a large stake in AMBEV (Budweiser)

Constellation Brands (STZ)- Mega importer of Mexican Beers. They also own various wineries AND..... a very large stake in a MARIJUANA company in Canada (Canopy Growth)

Crown Holdings (CCK) - Mostly produce packaging for Beer, Coffee and Tea. Also produces aerosol cans for various health and beauty products. This company isnt so bad.

The Wynn Hotel - Casino

Cruise Ships - Casino

Credit Cards- they make their money on enticing people to become indebted to them. Our bisops have cut up tens of thousands of credit cards of people you and I are having to donate fast offerings for. These companies prey on desperate people. I don't on individual positions of credit cards, but they are in my 401K funds.

Pfizer  (PFE)- Cytotec abortion pill

Starbucks (SBUX)- Coffee. 

Rockwell Automation - This is a cool company. Read up on their systems which help Breweries make their beer production of a higher quality and quantity. They do a lot of other stuff too, but the brewery thing was pretty cool.

L Brands - Before the internet, the source of many a deacons porn stash. Victoria's Secret. Im pretty sure a certain kind of underwear isnt found there. Women can lose a recommend for wearing this in lieu of u know what.

Brown Foreman - Producer of hard liquor for sale in 160 countries. My fav back in the day was JD. 

I don't recall if the Mariott Hotel was on the list, but they definitely dig the casino business overseas. I have been in them before.

 

OK so here we are. So is investing in this stuff kosher to you personally? I have no problem with it, but I also don't have a problem with many of the activities. I am curious if folks have a problem investing in this stuff. Personally I don't, but I also don't publish standards of conduct and health codes which are lets say exactly opposite of these investments. 

A few of you know exactly where you stand without knowing much about this probably. You stated your position, I stated mine. Others? Now that we know the church owns them (well 99% sure) you can finally decide what you think. Maybe.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

It's not so much mind-reading, but more observing predictable patterns seen over and over again, and not being a fool.

I think you would be proud of me.,, I followed your orders from the other thread and did some reading on my own. I would be interested to hear your opinion.

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