Self-harm and Suicide


Petty3
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Is self-harm a sin?  (Cutting oneself with a knife or other harm)

What about sucuide?  Is that a sin?

 I've heard conflicting answers on that.  I know that most people who kill themselves have mental health issues and luckily we don't have to be the judge.  Just wondering your opinions.  I've never heard one way or the other about a person harming themselves though.

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11 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

Is self-harm a sin?  (Cutting oneself with a knife or other harm)

What about sucuide?  Is that a sin?

 I've heard conflicting answers on that.  I know that most people who kill themselves have mental health issues and luckily we don't have to be the judge.  Just wondering your opinions.  I've never heard one way or the other about a person harming themselves though.

I would say yes that both of those are sins, but in the traditional understanding of a sin. 

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Hi! Absolutely it is a sin. We are supposed to honor our bodies as a temple. Just as killing someone and cutting someone else with a blade is a sin, so is hurting and cutting your own body. As far as keeping you from the temple I imagine it is up to your Bishop and Stake President. I think it would be best to get as close to the Lord as possible. If you think yours or someone else's cutting is going to result in them attempting to cut someone else then of course stay away from the temples.

Above ALL reach out and get help. Tell the bishop or counsel your friend to tell their bishop and he can help you/ them get the help that is needed.

Edited by Overwatch
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1 hour ago, Petty3 said:

Is self-harm a sin?  (Cutting oneself with a knife or other harm)

What about sucuide?  Is that a sin?

 I've heard conflicting answers on that.  I know that most people who kill themselves have mental health issues and luckily we don't have to be the judge.  Just wondering your opinions.  I've never heard one way or the other about a person harming themselves though.

(Speaking as a person who's been there)

Harming ourselves (physically, mentally, or spiritually) is going against God's wishes-- He loves us and never wants us to harm ourselves.  

However, we must also remember that self-harm is usually the symptom of something else going on-- usually a mental illness.  To effectively address this issue, we should focus on treating the illness, while of course dealing with symptoms.  Treating the illness should come WAY more important than doing things like shaming the sufferer.   Mental illness is a real thing and can be very serious, and there is NO shame in seeking treatment for this illness-- in fact you *should* seek help.  If you'd like, I can provide you with many LDS resources on this subject, including Elder Holland's GC talk where he as spoken about his own struggles with mental illness and seeking aide.  Christ wants us to get help for all ills, physical and mental.

58 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

Would self harm keep a person from a temple recommend?

This is not a topic covered in the TR interview.  Personally, I don't think so.  However, I also think that this not a productive question -- again, our focus should be having the person get help they need and not shaming.

A bishop is not a mental health magical fixer (just like he's not a physical health magical fixer) but he can indeed be a great resource for connecting a person to that counselor they need, and also being a spiritual-support person.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet
1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Speaking as a person who's been there)

Harming ourselves (physically, mentally, or spiritually) is going against God's wishes-- He loves us and never wants us to harm ourselves.  

However, we must also remember that self-harm is usually the symptom of something else going on-- usually a mental illness.  To effectively address this issue, we should focus on treating the illness, while of course dealing with symptoms.  Treating the illness should come WAY more important than doing things like shaming the sufferer.   Mental illness is a real thing and can be very serious, and there is NO shame in seeking treatment for this illness-- in fact you *should* seek help.  If you'd like, I can provide you with many LDS resources on this subject, including Elder Holland's GC talk where he as spoken about his own struggles with mental illness and seeking aide.  Christ wants us to get help for all ills, physical and mental.

This is not a topic covered in the TR interview.  Personally, I don't think so.  However, I also think that this not a productive question -- again, our focus should be having the person get help they need and not shaming.

A bishop is not a mental health magical fixer (just like he's not a physical health magical fixer) but he can indeed be a great resource for connecting a person to that counselor they need, and also being a spiritual-support person.  

THIS^^^     

For the reasons, Jane explained, I don't think it is a sin, but it does make the Lord sad.  I don't see any reason self-harm should keep one from going to the temple, as Jane said self-harm stems from mental illness, or trauma.  People who struggle with self-harm need help and support, if they feel up to going to the temple, and they should go.  

Self-harm is very addictive.  It's an unhealthy coping mechanism, but it is still a coping mechanism.  So if you haven't started, don't start, and if you have, get some help....preferably with a therapist that has experience working with people who self-harm.  

Things that help some people are rubber bands (still a form of self harm but doesn't leave a scar).  Others write on themselves with red marker (Red Sharpie is the best.)  Some hold ice cubes.  Most important though is to get help through therapy to address the cause of the urge to self-harm. 

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7 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

(Speaking as a person who's been there)

Harming ourselves (physically, mentally, or spiritually) is going against God's wishes-- He loves us and never wants us to harm ourselves.  

However, we must also remember that self-harm is usually the symptom of something else going on-- usually a mental illness.  To effectively address this issue, we should focus on treating the illness, while of course dealing with symptoms.  Treating the illness should come WAY more important than doing things like shaming the sufferer.   Mental illness is a real thing and can be very serious, and there is NO shame in seeking treatment for this illness-- in fact you *should* seek help.  If you'd like, I can provide you with many LDS resources on this subject, including Elder Holland's GC talk where he as spoken about his own struggles with mental illness and seeking aide.  Christ wants us to get help for all ills, physical and mental.

This is not a topic covered in the TR interview.  Personally, I don't think so.  However, I also think that this not a productive question -- again, our focus should be having the person get help they need and not shaming.

A bishop is not a mental health magical fixer (just like he's not a physical health magical fixer) but he can indeed be a great resource for connecting a person to that counselor they need, and also being a spiritual-support person.  

Perfect answer. 

 @Petty3-I pray you aren't suffering from this affliction. If you are, please seek assistance. @Jane_Doe was absolutely right when she said there is no shame in doing so. 
 

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10 hours ago, Petty3 said:

Is self-harm a sin?  (Cutting oneself with a knife or other harm)

What about sucuide?  Is that a sin?

 I've heard conflicting answers on that.  I know that most people who kill themselves have mental health issues and luckily we don't have to be the judge.  Just wondering your opinions.  I've never heard one way or the other about a person harming themselves though.

@Petty3 - i am so sorry.  i really believe people are worth way more to God than whether or not they have a temple recommend for their church.

As far as sin, i think God gives people what they need.  That's not always in line with what they want, and is only coincidentally related to what religious leaders tell people that they deserve.  And i've never known a person engaged in self harm yet that needed more guilt and shame and fear of a wrathful God heaped upon them.

People focus a lot on preventing suicides - but i think maybe even more than the suicide itself, it's the pain and despair and self harm that leads up to it that are the worst things.  A person who doesn't harm themselves or take their own lives merely because they are afraid of a wrathful judgment is not that much less of a tragedy in my view.

i'd second @LiterateParakeet in saying that whoever this person is should find a counselor that specializes in self harm and suicidal ideation.  This has long since passed the levels a bishop can handle by themselves.  i'd also recommend this person find someone they trust to stay with them whenever they are feeling significant distress.  

Assuming they are in Utah County - or anywhere in Utah - please download the SafeUT app on their phone.  It was designed and created by a mother who lost her daughter to suicide and provides instant access to a variety resources - which no doubt include counselors specialized in handling this kind of thing.  They can actually contact this lady also through her website, or through facebook - i know she has helped many.  

They have a 3 digit national suicide prevention hotline in the works, but i don't think it's been completed as yet.

http://livehannahshope.org/mobile-apps/

 

And the other thing i'd say - these aren't the kind of problems that can be solved by being "better" - attending the temple, serving more, etc., - please, please, please, tell this person not to try and solve them this way.  Everything i've seen indicates this just makes them worse.  

Edited by lostinwater
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2 hours ago, Petty3 said:

@Jane_Doe  How did you stop your self harm?

A better question: "how did you get your mental illness treated?"  The self-harm was a symptom of the illness, and this is not something you fix by just treating symptoms.  You got to go after the real cause.  

The short answer: LOTS of self-reflection, prayer, good relationships, and professional therapist to help guide.

 

 

The long answer/story---

 I was badly abused as a kid, which left me very scared and messed up at a very young age.  I had no sense of self-worth or love-- to be honest I felt like a defective monster that needed to be killed for everyone's safety.  Yes, I hurt myself both physically and (very commonly) emotionally as a way of... I HURT so bad inside, to physically bleed and hurt-- it was a release, a coping mechanism, a way punish a person I felt needed punished and... frankly it felt REALLY good in the moment.   All drugs feel really good in the moment.   And then a hour later the high fades and... you look at the ruins of your life and want nothing more than to escape it again and reach for another round of drugs.  Self-harm is an extremely addictive and destructive cycle that way.

I did try to just quit the cutting and treat the symptoms while turning a blind eye to the disease.  In drug recovery circles this is known as "white knuckling"-- and it can work for a season, until something goes wrong and you're back on the cycle again, usually worse off.  I mustered up a titan's will power, came up with all these 'rules' for myself (all about leaving no physical marks that another person could see), and I did successfully stop leaving marks.   I was really really proud of myself for this-- felt that with my own will power I had slain the demons.  In 20/20 hindsight: I was SO self-deluded!!!  True I wasn't physically cutting, but I was still hurting myself regularly, especially mentally.  I still ached inside, even more than before.  All my 'demon slaying' really was me lying to myself--- I wasn't better at all.  I was just hiding the problem from the world and myself. 

Still, I lied to myself and the world for 15 years.   Until something happened and it all came crashing down.  Everything.  My social life, my schooling, my ability to think, my testimony, my shattered heart.  I was truly a broken human being.  

Getting out of that state... it was a long road.  I tried to just ask friends for help- I felt that I had good friends.  But my friends, while loving, were not the doctors to treat this illness, and that turned into a disaster.  I tried self-mastery alone... yeah that went nuclear too.  

The biggest changes to actually make progress were:

- the humility to admit how ill I was.  Admit it to myself.  Admit it to others.  

- the humility to actually meet with a doctor to address my ills.  To... trust another person close enough.  To trust myself to be close enough.  My therapist was.... a therapist is a guide to help you get where you want to go.  I wanted for SO long to be better, but I hadn't known how to get there.  Having that outside perspective and experience... I cannot find words to express the change and relief.  Knots in myself I had battled for years to undo, suddenly I had a solution.  The battle... .  I didn't have to fight anymore.  I didn't have to wake up every morning and fight the urge to hurt a monster--  because I really wasn't a monster.  I wasn't a monster.  I was/am a child of God.  Like for real.  Really real.  I was someone to fight for-- to celebrate and protect.  I forgave myself of the old hurts-- my perceived sins.  I fought for me, the reborn child of God.  And with that... the desire to hurt myself... it's just not there, instead replaced with real Christ-like love for myself and others.  

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Guest LiterateParakeet

Petty3, I also struggled with the urge to self-harm.  To this day, I'm amazed how strong the desire was to do it.  I didn't cut because I was afraid of becoming addicted, but I wanted to, so badly.  I used to think: it's not fair, if I never smoke, I'll never crave a cigarette.  I have never self-harmed, and yet I crave it intensely.  I agree with what Jane said about dealing with the underlying mental health issue.  I used rubber band popping...(I kept a rubber band on my wrist and would pop myself with it....then I got scared it might break and not be there when I needed it, so I got a second and then a third.)  I also wrote on myself with Red Sharpie, that was helpful...in a band-aid like way.  

I think what helped me finally be freed from the cravings was a lot of therapy which helped me realize where the feelings were coming from.  You have likely heard of women who are raped who get in the shower and practically scrub their skin off in an attempt to cleanse themselves of the experience, right?   Well, I was sexually abused as a child (over a period of years) and I had this UNCONSCIOUS illusions that if I cut myself and bleed a LOT, I could get clean, much like that rape survivor scrubbing her skin in the shower.   Therapy helped me work through those feelings in a healthier way until at last the craving went away.  

Some of the healthy coping skills I use today: meditation, mindfulness, art, journaling, writing, exercise, puzzles.....

Edited by LiterateParakeet
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21 hours ago, Petty3 said:

@Jane_Doe  How did you stop your self harm?

I  know this sounds very cliche.  I was at a very very low point in my life and I almost gave up.  Sebastian Bach of Skid Row saved me.  I had this multi-CD player set to shuffle and just at the right moment this song played and Bach's vocals penetrated my head when he sang this part:

Can you feel me inside your heart as it's bleeding
Why can't you believe you can be loved?

So I called 911.

After I got married, when I got that low, my husband was always there to catch me.  I love that guy very much. 

Self-harm goes against the 2nd great commandment to love others as yourself.  When I was Catholic, my priest delivered a sermon on this commandment.  He asked the question - does the commandment still apply to those who hate themselves that they self-harm or commit suicide?  The answer is, of course, yes.  Self-harm is self-focus - focusing on yourself that you forget others or have that perspective skewed thinking others will be better off without you.  This is false.  The only way one can love others as well as love themselves is if they put their hope, trust, and faith solidly on Christ and strive everyday to bring one's self with others closer to Him.  Self-harm as well as suicide brings us farther from Him.

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Healthy people don't kill themselves or hurt themselves.

We are commanded to take care of our bodies. By hurting ourselves we are not keeping that commandment.

At the end is between the person and the Lord, as the Lord can see inside people's hearts and minds.

But... If it is yourself, asking those questions, and wondering if it's a sin... well... if it's bothering you enough to ask, then you already know the answer and are very aware of what you're doing or thinking about doing.  

Instead of hurting oneself is always better to seek help.

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19 hours ago, Petty3 said:

@Jane_Doe  Thank you for your answer and for being so honest about yourself and opening up.

:)

I spent 20 years hiding things, only to my own determine.  Now, I'm open, better... why would I not share a story about submitting mountains with God's help?  God and everyone else blessed me, and it would be hiding my light to NOT be open and honest about it.  Everyone blessed me, so now it's my duty from God to go and help whomever I can.  So if you need help or want to talk @Petty3, or someone you know needs help, or any other random person reading this thread, feel 100% free to contact me about anything.  

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On 9/8/2018 at 11:06 PM, Petty3 said:

Would self harm keep a person from a temple recommend?

Depends on what self harm you are talking about.  For example, being overweight is generally acceptable - even if it leads to earlier death.

 

The Traveler

Edited by Traveler
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Just now, Traveler said:

Depends on what self harm you are talking about.  For example, being overweight is generally acceptable.

 

The Traveler

That's probably just because if they get strict on health requirements there won't be too many people left to do the work in the temple.  ;)

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet
37 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Depends on what self harm you are talking about.  For example, being overweight is generally acceptable - even if it leads to earlier death.

 

The Traveler

I would say that, at least for some,  being overweight is a symptom of deeper emotional or mental issues.  It's no coincidence that I lost 90 lbs, AFTER several years of therapy.  It would be a shame to keep people out of the temple because their pain is more visible.

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1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I would say that, at least for some,  being overweight is a symptom of deeper emotional or mental issues.  It's no coincidence that I lost 90 lbs, AFTER several years of therapy.  It would be a shame to keep people out of the temple because their pain is more visible.

You are so correct - almost without exception just about everything that looks evil has circumstances that makes things more complex.  Sometimes there are self feeding loops where one thing makes something else more difficult that then makes the first thing worse and so on and so on.   One thing for sure - those like yourself that find way to overcome anything should be recognized as heroic.  Knowing how to be better and talking about it is one thing but those that overcome by doing are greater and wiser than anyone that just thinks and accomplishes little. :clap:

 

The Traveler

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What if how you talk to someone "pushes them over the edge", and they kill themselves?  What would that be called and how would that be handled?  By the church and/or the authorities?

Like is that manslaughter, murder...?  There are some people out there that are so sensitive about things that I swear...

I tried telling the guys in the Gospel Essentials class about suicide when it came up in discussion regarding some course that's coming up in a few days on dealing with suicide.  No matter how much I tried to tell them what it's like and what causes it, they (there were only three of us) showed they really didn't care.  I felt as if I was talking to a brick wall.  But then I reflect on when I had those "feelings", and if only someone out there actually cared, instead of the worthless lip service....

 

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Guest LiterateParakeet

@Traveler thank you.  Your kind words are very appreciated.  :)  

Quote


@pwrfrk  What if how you talk to someone "pushes them over the edge", and they kill themselves?  What would that be called and how would that be handled?  By the church and/or the authorities?

As far as I know, there is not a specific term for that...hopefully because it is a rare thing.  The first question one would need to ask is "was it done intentionally?"   I have heard one story (quite awhile back) about one kid who pushed another to suicide, literally saying things like, "Why don't you just do it?  Kill yourself.  Do it."  I believe the Lord would take something like that very seriously, akin to murder, unless the person doing it had some sort of mental disorder.  However, based on your comments...
 

1 hour ago, pwrfrk said:

I tried telling the guys in the Gospel Essentials class about suicide when it came up in discussion regarding some course that's coming up in a few days on dealing with suicide.  No matter how much I tried to tell them what it's like and what causes it, they (there were only three of us) showed they really didn't care.  I felt as if I was talking to a brick wall.  But then I reflect on when I had those "feelings", and if only someone out there actually cared, instead of the worthless lip service....

Sometimes people are clueless or insensitive, but I think most of the time that is a weakness not a sin....the main difference being that a weakness is unintentional, a sin is done with knowledge and intent.   People can be clueless, insensitive, or give well-intended but harmful advice because they are dealing with their own inner demons, or incorrect ideas and understandings.  Either way that is not the same thing as goading someone into hurting themselves.  

Another thing to consider here is that when a person is suicidal, generally speaking, they are in a lot of pain, and are not thinking clearly.  They may think their loved ones would be better off without them which is not true, or that no one actually cares when really they are very much loved.  Even what seems to be lip service MIGHT be genuine caring....but simply not recognized or not shared well.  

As always Christ is the answer.  He can heal our broken hearts and He is our example in how to love one another better.  

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2 hours ago, pwrfrk said:

What if how you talk to someone "pushes them over the edge", and they kill themselves? 

You are only responsible for your own actions.   If you were a jerk or bully or whatever to another person, then that was wrong of you.  What they choose to do afterwards doesn't make your wrong doing any more or less severe.   It doesn't matter if they handle it well (shake it off and invoke Christ's atonement) or poorly (like harming themselves or another), what you did was still wrong.

Edited by Jane_Doe
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